Pop Quiz Poll: Circle-to-Land

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
14,210
Location
Midlothian, TX
Display Name
Display name:
3Green
You're flying the ILS to runway 36, with strong winds out of the southwest. Passing the final approach fix, you check in with the tower and hear:

"Bugsmasher 34X, Metro Tower, cleared to land runway 18, circle right."

If you fly the approach as depicted here, did you do it correctly?

attachment.php


In other words, is the "circle right" instruction telling you to break off to the right, relative to your inbound approach path, or is the "circle right" instruction instructing you to make right traffic (right hand turns), and you should have split off to the west?

EDIT: I wanted to add a poll, but it didn't work; so just chime in here.
 

Attachments

  • ScreenShot113.png
    ScreenShot113.png
    36.5 KB · Views: 191
Last edited:
I have only been given circle instructions that are either by direction (North, East etc.) or by traffic pattern (right traffic or left traffic.) Not by circle right or circle left.
 
I say right hand traffic too...

Altho left traffic would be safer during the downwind, base, final turn..

as that pesty tailwind while doing the right traffic could add a bit of excitement..:confused:
 
I'd say right traffic too, but if not sure I'd ask. Those are pretty vague instructions.


Ben, what's the wind have to do with left or right traffic being more or less exciting?
 
I'm not sure, but in my experience the tower would say (for an east/west runway) "circle north/south of the field".
 
Captain said:
I'd say right traffic too, but if not sure I'd ask. Those are pretty vague instructions.


Ben, what's the wind have to do with left or right traffic being more or less exciting?
Click to expand...


Based on the OP statement.

"You're flying the ILS to runway 36, with strong winds out of the southwest. "

While doing the left traffic the strong winds out of the SW will give you a cross wind on the downwind to base turn and a nice headwind on the base to final turn, it will also try to blow you away from the centerline in your favor at that phase of flight too..

The right traffic pattern will give you a strong tailwind on the downwind to base leg and try to blow you past centerline on the base to final turn... That is where the Cirrus crash in FLA a few weeks back bought the farm...

If the tower gave me a choice I would pick left traffic every time for that scenerio...:yesnod:.
 
Last edited:
I just heard somebody on KFTW ATC ask to "circle right", which is what got me looking at this. You're all right--it refers to the direction of turns in the pattern, not which direction you turn initially. Here's another image from the TERPS PDF on circle-to-land procedures; the image's caption makes it clear. Notice "left circling" = "turns to the left".

attachment.php


In my ORIGINAL question / post on this thread, you would have flown it wrong if you flew it as depicted.
 

Attachments

  • ScreenShot116.png
    ScreenShot116.png
    36.6 KB · Views: 172
LearDriver said:
I have only been given circle instructions that are either by direction (North, East etc.) or by traffic pattern (right traffic or left traffic.) Not by circle right or circle left.
Click to expand...
This has always been my experience. If they said 'circle right' I would expect they meant right traffic, but I would ask for clarification.
 
The tower controller is in error, and the pilot should clarify which cardinal direction and traffic pattern turns the controller wants him to circle.

Refer to FAA 7110.65U, the controller's basic instruction manual:

4−8−6. CIRCLING APPROACH
a. Circling approach instructions may only be
given for aircraft landing at airports with operational
control towers.
b. Include in the approach clearance instructions
to circle to the runway in use if landing will be made
on a runway other than that aligned with the direction
of instrument approach. When the direction of the
circling maneuver in relation to the airport/runway is
required, state the direction (eight cardinal compass
points) and specify a left or right base/downwind leg
as appropriate.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CIRCLE TO RUNWAY (number),
or
CIRCLE (direction using eight cardinal compass points)
OF THE AIRPORT/RUNWAY FOR A LEFT/RIGHT
BASE/DOWNWIND TO RUNWAY (number).
Click to expand...
Emphasis added.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
You're flying the ILS to runway 36, with strong winds out of the southwest. Passing the final approach fix, you check in with the tower and hear:

"Bugsmasher 34X, Metro Tower, cleared to land runway 18, circle right."

If you fly the approach as depicted here, did you do it correctly?

attachment.php


In other words, is the "circle right" instruction telling you to break off to the right, relative to your inbound approach path, or is the "circle right" instruction instructing you to make right traffic (right hand turns), and you should have split off to the west?
Click to expand...

The controller is using nonstandard phraseology, I'd ask for clarification. The circling instruction should be part of the approach clearance, and it should be more like this:

"Bugsmasher 34X cleared ILS runway 36 approach, circle east of the runway for a left downwind to runway 18."
 
The controllers here will tell you which direction to circle, for example, circle to the east.
 
The meta-lesson is that, just like you, when a controller buys a pencil he always picks one that has an eraser. Just like you, his keyboard has a backspace key.

Your airplane, on the other hand, does not have the concept of erasing or backspacing.

For that reason a pilot should never try to guess what a controller wants. If there is any doubt in the pilot's mind he should clarify his understanding of what the controller wants, and comply with the controller unless there is a safety issue, in which case 'Bugsmasher 1234 missed approach' or 'unable' should be used.
 
JimNtexas said:
The meta-lesson is that, just like you, when a controller buys a pencil he always picks one that has an eraser. Just like you, his keyboard has a backspace key.
Click to expand...

Controllers are not permitted to erase.
 
N801BH said:
Based on the OP statement.

"You're flying the ILS to runway 36, with strong winds out of the southwest. "

While doing the left traffic the strong winds out of the SW will give you a cross wind on the downwind to base turn and a nice headwind on the base to final turn, it will also try to blow you away from the centerline in your favor at that phase of flight too..

The right traffic pattern will give you a strong tailwind on the downwind to base leg and try to blow you past centerline on the base to final turn... That is where the Cirrus crash in FLA a few weeks back bought the farm...

If the tower gave me a choice I would pick left traffic every time for that scenerio...:yesnod:.
Click to expand...

I missed the 'southwest' part. I thought he just said, 'tailwind'. Either way, I see your point but in the pattern I fly a ground track. The winds don't 'blow me' towards or away from anything.

Given the option I'd probably fly the left traffic too, but that's just cause I sit on the left and that would give me a better view. I'd do the same with the winds out of the Southeast.
 
Captain said:
...... Either way, I see your point but in the pattern I fly a ground track. The winds don't 'blow me' towards or away from anything.......

.
Click to expand...
..

I bet you have never flown in windy Wyoming..:no::nonod::wink2:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
You're flying the ILS to runway 36, with strong winds out of the southwest. Passing the final approach fix, you check in with the tower and hear:

"Bugsmasher 34X, Metro Tower, cleared to land runway 18, circle right."

If you fly the approach as depicted here, did you do it correctly?

attachment.php


In other words, is the "circle right" instruction telling you to break off to the right, relative to your inbound approach path, or is the "circle right" instruction instructing you to make right traffic (right hand turns), and you should have split off to the west?

EDIT: I wanted to add a poll, but it didn't work; so just chime in here.
Click to expand...

On circle to land aren't they referring to circling the runway? If so the diagram is correct.
 
The only time I've heard the terms "circle right" I was square dancing.
 
roncachamp said:
"Do not erase or overwrite any item."

Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control, para 2-3-1.
Click to expand...


1.
​
​
Do not erase or overwrite any item. Use an​

“X” to delete a climb/descend and maintain arrow, an
at or above/below symbol, a cruise symbol, and
unwanted altitude information. Write the new altitude
information immediately adjacent to it and within the​
​
​

same space.​


Yep...don't erase!​

We always get circling directions with compass locations (east of/west of, etc.) for the circling approach, and if the tower is closed, the expectation is to follow the standard traffic pattern, or if circling to a crosswind runway (ie an ILS to rwy 6 circle to land rwy 33) then the expectation is to circle to an approach which creates a base leg directly to the rwy in use.​
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top