Poll: Will ADS-B Inevitably lead to user's fees?

[docmirror]

I can't believe there are people here that are alluding to how great privately run infrastructure projects are and at the same time don't think there should be user fees. If private industry ran the airports and airways, we would be charged from engine start to shut down.

Hmmm. FAA disagrees with you. They gave the FSS to LockMart. Not that I think it was a beneficial thing to do, but that's a massive infrastructure project, and the FAA decided that LockMart could do it better.

I for one, would be willing to pay a fee structure to private enterprise running some or all of the GA services. There is one, huge, giant, massive caveat though: I want to be relieved of the fed fees I'm already paying, like the avgas tax that goes into the airport and airway trust fund which is a giant slush fund for the feds to toss around. So, what you are describing sounds like you think private enterprise is a bad thing, but it's what has made this country the wealthiest on the planet, and driven record development so that a huge sucking govt can exist. To be very brief, give me the option. I buy my gas from a private outfit, I use private in-flight services, and land at private airports wherever they may be, and pay my way via user fees. BUT: I am now EXEMPT from AVGAS TAXES, and other fed fees related to the aviation system.

Deal?

 

[James331]

Yes there were tons of roads in the 1920s. They are funded by gas taxes not income tax.
Paranoid and stupid is not a good combination.

My point appears to have gone over your head. And how am I paranoid?

What I clearly pointed out was the govt always wants more from the people, and the country ran just fine when the govt was but a spec of the size compared to the beast it has become now.

 

[gismo]

The Gov't doesn't need ADS-B to impose user fees.

Some airports have been sending out landing fee invoices based on automated cameras capturing N#s and if you're filing IFR the FAA knows who you are unless you file false information and set yourself up for a big fine (or worse).

Also the UAT version of ADS-B has an anonymous mode that works when you're squawking 1200 if you want. Since it's expected that the vast majority of us bug smashers will go the UAT route it's hard to see how ADS-B would be a precursor to user fees.

Finally, AFaIK the FAA cannot implement user fees on their own (of course they did decide to charge EAA for Airventure support). It should require legislative action to get that through.

 

[Dav8or]

So, what you are describing sounds like you think private enterprise is a bad thing, but it's what has made this country the wealthiest on the planet, and driven record development so that a huge sucking govt can exist. To be very brief, give me the option. I buy my gas from a private outfit, I use private in-flight services, and land at private airports wherever they may be, and pay my way via user fees. BUT: I am now EXEMPT from AVGAS TAXES, and other fed fees related to the aviation system.

Deal?

Private enterprise is not a bad thing at all. IMO, the smart society uses private enterprise where it makes sense and government enterprise where it makes sense. In the case of public use infrastructure, the government is better suited for oversight, but the day to day operation is best left to private contractors.

The truth is, many of the public systems are monopolies by their very nature. One road, one electric grid, one sewer system, etc. There is no competition, so no lower costs. In theory, might as well have a non profit public agency run the deal. Sadly, in practice there is poor oversight, so there is much waste. It is time for a shake up and more responsibility.

Case in point though- The freeway system in this country is fantastic. It allows us to freely move around the country without even thinking twice about it. If every trip became a calculation of toll costs, a lot less trips would be made. That's not good for business.

I see the airways and the airports exactly the same. I'll take the fuel tax any day over a constant stream of monthly bills. I can just imagine Comcast, or Verizon running the transportation of the country.

 

[docmirror]

Private enterprise is not a bad thing at all. IMO, the smart society uses private enterprise where it makes sense and government enterprise where it makes sense. In the case of public use infrastructure, the government is better suited for oversight, but the day to day operation is best left to private contractors.

The truth is, many of the public systems are monopolies by their very nature. One road, one electric grid, one sewer system, etc. There is no competition, so no lower costs. In theory, might as well have a non profit public agency run the deal. Sadly, in practice there is poor oversight, so there is much waste. It is time for a shake up and more responsibility.

Case in point though- The freeway system in this country is fantastic. It allows us to freely move around the country without even thinking twice about it. If every trip became a calculation of toll costs, a lot less trips would be made. That's not good for business.

I see the airways and the airports exactly the same. I'll take the fuel tax any day over a constant stream of monthly bills. I can just imagine Comcast, or Verizon running the transportation of the country.

Wow, you really bought in. BTW, I know you don't realize it, but a significant part of the FREEway system in this country is toll. If we had a private enterprise running the NAS, it would run smoother, cost less, and be far friendlier than what we have today. Miracle of miracles, I bet GA would benefit the most from privatization of the NAS. Look whats already been done with private tower ops? I think they are running about 65% of the cost of FAA managed towers.

Verizon brings an amazing amount of technology right into your hand 7/24/365. Billions of bytes of data. And you can pay as little as $49/month for all that. Or, you can also pay as you go for those who want to manage by the MB. Choice, it's a good thing.

 

[jnmeade]

Probably everything will be user fees eventually.
There has been interest in doing away with automobile gas tax and implementing a vehicle mileage tax (VMT). You pay based on how many miles you drive. What is to not like about hat?

Well......

Maybe heavy vehicles cause more road damage but they pay the same tax as a VW Beetle.

A Bugati Veyron that gets 10 mpg would like it. A Honda CRV that gets 37 mpg would not like it. A BMW i3 BEV that gets 124 mpg would like it even less. Pay the same as that ungeberisches auto? Gott im Himmel!

Do you tax the rancher driving his pickup truck over his ranch? How about the gravel truck while it's going through the privately owned quarry? Hmmm. This may be more complicated than we thought.

Right now, the diesel farm tractor does not pay fuel tax while on a public road going between farms. Should we tax them? In Germany, they even make them have a license plate.

Oh, I'm sure all these and other objections could be overcome by fare minded people. Uh, excuse me, I meant fair minded.

 

[Dav8or]

Maybe heavy vehicles cause more road damage but they pay the same tax as a VW Beetle.

NO THEY DO NOT. Federally there is an IRS tax return (Form 2290) that must be sent in every year for the highway heavy use tax. It's based on mileage and weight. State wide here in California, the tax is progressive based on GVW. My trucks cost about $1600 a year in registration each, but my car is now about $160.

Trucks definitely pay way more.

 

[coloradobluesky]

No, they should use fuel taxes to fund the system.

 

[ClimbnSink]

No, they should use fuel taxes to fund the system.

I prefer user fees. I buy fuel but almost never use ATC services. So I'm paying for other people's party favors. I'd rather not.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

They already have all the information to bill the owner of an aircraft for the ATC services they use now. ADS-B gains them absolutely nothing new that they don't already have right now, and that they have had for decades. Aircraft not utilizing ATC services remain anonymous today, and they can remain anonymous after the 2020 ADS-B mandate as well. Zero change.

Might some lacky from the government want to institute user fees some day? Maybe. But ADS-B has absolutely nothing to do with it.

For whoever is latched on the word "surveillance", please reference what every approach and ground radar system has been called for the last 50 years.

 

[Dav8or]

I prefer user fees. I buy fuel but almost never use ATC services. So I'm paying for other people's party favors. I'd rather not.

I bet you use runways and airports every time. That's why the fuel tax works. It's not just ATC.

 

[ClimbnSink]

The counties and states may use it to collect use taxes on planes that spend time in those special places. Not for ATC services but for the blessed ability to have your airplane near your vacation home more then 30 days a year.

They already have all the information to bill the owner of an aircraft for the ATC services they use now. ADS-B gains them absolutely nothing new that they don't already have right now, and that they have had for decades. Aircraft not utilizing ATC services remain anonymous today, and they can remain anonymous after the 2020 ADS-B mandate as well. Zero change.

Might some lacky from the government want to institute user fees some day? Maybe. But ADS-B has absolutely nothing to do with it.

For whoever is latched on the word "surveillance", please reference what every approach and ground radar system has been called for the last 50 years.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I bet you use runways and airports every time. That's why the fuel tax works. It's not just ATC.

Sometimes I just use mountains and fields, most of my flying from 'proper' airports have been privately owned ones. I don't need all that stuff.

 

[Dav8or]

Sometimes I just use mountains and fields, most of my flying from 'proper' airports have been privately owned ones. I don't need all that stuff.

Then screw the $5 federal registration fee. You don't need anything. I suspect whatever airplane you fly doesn't need AVGAS. If it does, get one that doesn't. This discussion doesn't really apply to you.

 

[Henning]

Hmmm. FAA disagrees with you. They gave the FSS to LockMart. Not that I think it was a beneficial thing to do, but that's a massive infrastructure project, and the FAA decided that LockMart could do it better.

I for one, would be willing to pay a fee structure to private enterprise running some or all of the GA services. There is one, huge, giant, massive caveat though: I want to be relieved of the fed fees I'm already paying, like the avgas tax that goes into the airport and airway trust fund which is a giant slush fund for the feds to toss around. So, what you are describing sounds like you think private enterprise is a bad thing, but it's what has made this country the wealthiest on the planet, and driven record development so that a huge sucking govt can exist. To be very brief, give me the option. I buy my gas from a private outfit, I use private in-flight services, and land at private airports wherever they may be, and pay my way via user fees. BUT: I am now EXEMPT from AVGAS TAXES, and other fed fees related to the aviation system.

Deal?

The FAA decided what? Were they even involved in the decision outside of political appointees? Congress decided LockMart could have the deal because they said they would do it cheaper, and probably convinced enough committee members over golf.

 

[Dr. O]

If I live long enough deja vu might come around again.
I started out flying a no electric J3 off our farm back in the late 1940's and if conspiracy theories hold some water I may have go back to that.
I live on a different farm now, about 40 miles from my childhood. I look different now, too. Hoo boy, is that an understatement. My wife showed me some pictures from a family reunion some 40 years ago. I had to do a triple take to be sure the guy was me. Then there was this hot babe draped all over him. She insists that is her - but when I hold the picture up and squint over top at her, I can't make a match. I got a damp dish towel flung at me for that little faux pas .
There may be a no electric, yellow tail dragger in my future again.

Anyway, having lived a long and honorable life I can tell you with certainty from experience that user fees are coming.
(mostly honorable - I have had lapses of thought when some young thing in a sun suit bends over in front of me )
ahem (clears throat) I don't know when but I am sure of the outcome. You see, the majority (the 49%) have voted themselves free stuff. Politicians have pandered to their desire for stuff to keep being elected and reelected for life. Where it becomes a problem, as predicted by the framers of the Constitution is paying for the 'stuff'. Hence user fees. The socialized countries of Europe all face the same dilemma as we are encountering. Their solution has been taxes and user fees, eventually on everything and up the ying yang.
We are treading the same path about 30 years behind Europe, currently. We are on the cusp of becoming a third world banana republic. A very big banana republic, but one non the less. (sigh )

 

[Henning]

User fees are the exact opposite of taxes. These services cost money under our system of economy, they can be funded 2 ways, taxes where everyone pays, or direct fees for those using the service or infrastructure.

Right now, regardless of fuel tax, the majority of GA aviation services are funded through purchases made by airline passengers.

 

[Alexb2000]

I just got back from Europe. Sometimes its like looking at a crystal ball. The mindset there is ANYTHING that isn't common and required by everyone is a luxury item and should be heavily taxed.

Sales tax on dinner at a restaurant? 19%
Sales tax on a new car? 180%
Cost of Gasoline? about $8 (~40% tax)

The good news is that you can sit around your house unemployed (but still get a check), ride bicycles down the local market, see the doctor for free, basically live your life without a lot of concerns. If you do want to work there are strict rules about vacations, time off, pensions, unions, etc. However, keep in mind that working will NOT guarantee a better lifestyle. It's more like something to do because the daytime TV there sucks.

User fees ARE coming, for most everything.

 

[Henning]

I just got back from Europe. Sometimes its like looking at a crystal ball. The mindset there is ANYTHING that isn't common and required by everyone is a luxury item and should be heavily taxed.

Sales tax on dinner at a restaurant? 19%
Sales tax on a new car? 180%
Cost of Gasoline? about $8 (~40% tax)

The good news is that you can sit around your house unemployed (but still get a check), ride bicycles down the local market, see the doctor for free, basically live your life without a lot of concerns. If you do want to work there are strict rules about vacations, time off, pensions, unions, etc. However, keep in mind that working will NOT guarantee a better lifestyle. It's more like something to do because the daytime TV there sucks.

User fees ARE coming, for most everything.

Yeah, it's really not God awful here, and I really like Siesta.

 

[Alexb2000]

Yeah, it's really not God awful here, and I really like Siesta.

Have you ever thought about moving somewhere in the EU? Serious question.

 

[Henning]

Have you ever thought about moving somewhere in the EU? Serious question.

I'm in Imperia Italian right now. I have a German birth certificate and am considering more permanent residence over this side, we'll see how things pan out.

 

[Alexb2000]

I'm in Imperia Italian right now. I have a German birth certificate and am considering more permanent residence over this side, we'll see how things pan out.

Better get it done soon. Germany is getting more restrictive on the family reunification, if that's the path you plan to take. If you speak good enough German it should be a piece of cake for you.

 

[Henning]

Better get it done soon. Germany is getting more restrictive on the family reunification, if that's the path you plan to take. If you speak good enough German it should be a piece of cake for you.

I am German.

 

[Alexb2000]

I am German.

OH, sorry, I though you were born there, but you are a U.S. citizen. I presumed you came to the states young.

If you have an EU passport you're golden IMO.

 

[docmirror]

Interesting to watch the poll results. It started out skewed way over to 'solely for separation'. Now even.

Hmmmmmm. I sense an uptick in the tin foil hat force.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

The problem is this poll question is completely invalid. Since ADS-B changes absolutely nothing about what ATC knows and how they can send a bill, the question is meaningless. It would be like asking "Will ADS-B inevitably lead to a striped bass." The two are neither mutually exclusive nor required for one another. You could go fishing before ADS-B, and you can go fishing after ADS-B. And you don't need ADS-B to go fishing now, or in the future.

The people voting YES don't know any better and just think user fees are coming. The people voting no either don't think user fees are coming at all, or comprehend that ADS-B has nothing to do with it.

 

[Jay Honeck]

The problem is this poll question is completely invalid. Since ADS-B changes absolutely nothing about what ATC knows and how they can send a bill, the question is meaningless. It would be like asking "Will ADS-B inevitably lead to a striped bass." The two are neither mutually exclusive nor required for one another. You could go fishing before ADS-B, and you can go fishing after ADS-B. And you don't need ADS-B to go fishing now, or in the future.

The people voting YES don't know any better and just think user fees are coming. The people voting no either don't think user fees are coming at all, or comprehend that ADS-B has nothing to do with it.

How, before I installed ADS-B out last winter, did ATC know who I was and where I was flying VFR?

Answer: They didn't, unless I contacted them and was given a discrete squawk code. Now they do, whether I use any services or not. As long as my transponder is on, even set to 1200, they know my name, address, and every airport I visit.

Methinks you are interpreting "User fees" to incorrectly mean "fees for ATC services". In Europe, users fees go beyond that -- every landing is metered, at many airports -- and it's what many of us fear is coming, now that we can be positively identified at all times.

I still like the "free stuff" the system has given me, but let's not kid ourselves about the potential uses of ADS-B.

 

[N801BH]

How, before I installed ADS-B out last winter, did ATC know who I was and where I was flying VFR?

Answer: They didn't, unless I contacted them and was given a discrete squawk code. Now they do, whether I use any services or not. As long as my transponder is on, even set to 1200, they know my name, address, and every airport I visit.

Methinks you are interpreting "User fees" to incorrectly mean "fees for ATC services". In Europe, users fees go beyond that -- every landing is metered, at many airports -- and it's what many of us fear is coming, now that we can be positively identified at all times.

I still like the "free stuff" the system has given me, but let's not kid ourselves about the potential uses of ADS-B.

Jay..... Pedals2Paddles is a GOVERNMENT WORKER...

He lives in Maryland and his public profile says.. " I work for you"...

All guvmint workers are scared *hitless their funding mechinism is going to run dry before they can cash in on their lavish guvint pension program..

You can expect ALL of them to spin the thought of " user fees" as bogus and BS.....

But they ain't....IMHO....

 

[jmp470]

I don't know precisely when it happened, but I feel far more empowered as a shareholder in any corporation nowadays than I do as a voter in this government.

I believe that ADS-B -- with "surveillance" in its name, for cripe's sake -- will eventually be used to track and bill us. It's just too easy a trick to turn.

Is this before or after they take over the airport on Mustang Island?

 

[gismo]

How, before I installed ADS-B out last winter, did ATC know who I was and where I was flying VFR?

Answer: They didn't, unless I contacted them and was given a discrete squawk code. Now they do, whether I use any services or not. As long as my transponder is on, even set to 1200, they know my name, address, and every airport I visit.

Jay, if your ADS-B compliance is via a UAT, you should be able to operate in anonymous mode if you're VFR. And if you have a mode S transponder turned on it replies with a unique ID for your aircraft whether or not you have ADS-B out.

IOW, ADS-B has no impact on anyone's ability to tell who you are.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

How, before I installed ADS-B out last winter, did ATC know who I was and where I was flying VFR?

Answer: They didn't, unless I contacted them and was given a discrete squawk code. Now they do, whether I use any services or not. As long as my transponder is on, even set to 1200, they know my name, address, and every airport I visit.

How? It's because you're not taking into account the full scope of the 2020 bull****. If you have no intention of using ATC services, you are not required to have ADS-B out at all. So actually no, they won't know who you are. If you stay out A/B/C airspace and below 10,000ft, absolutely nothing changes for you. You can keep anonymously squawking 1200 with a traditional Mode C transponder. They will not know who you are. They didn't before, they don't today, and they still won't in 2020. The ADS-B Out mandate applies only to the scenarios were you would already be on a discreet code tied to your tail number now today anyway. It changes nothing.

They could implement user fees for ATC services tomorrow if they wanted to. They don't need ADS-B to do that. It is totally unrelated. I'm against it, i'm simply saying ADS-B has nothing to do with it.

Jay..... Pedals2Paddles is a GOVERNMENT WORKER...

He lives in Maryland and his public profile says.. " I work for you"...

All guvmint workers are scared *hitless their funding mechinism is going to run dry before they can cash in on their lavish guvint pension program..

You can expect ALL of them to spin the thought of " user fees" as bogus and BS.....

But they ain't....IMHO....

Excuse me sir, but you have no clue what you're ignorant mouth is spewing. You know nothing about me or my beliefs. Your foil hat is clouding your thought process. Not everyone with a remote connection to the government is a power mongering liberal hell bent on taking your right or be moron away from you. Basically everything you said is completely wrong and in fact the total opposite. So just in case there was any doubt about your foolishness, you've made sure to prove it. Congratulations. Maybe if you read the other things I've posted in this thread, or anything else I've posted, or maybe taken your medication, you would comprehend this.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay, if your ADS-B compliance is via a UAT, you should be able to operate in anonymous mode if you're VFR. And if you have a mode S transponder turned on it replies with a unique ID for your aircraft whether or not you have ADS-B out.

IOW, ADS-B has no impact on anyone's ability to tell who you are.

So tell me -- how (short of turning off my transponder) do I operate in "anonymous mode"? There is no such setting on my EFIS, which controls my remotely mounted Trig TT-22.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

That's a transponder. Not a UAT. Of course it doesn't have an anon mode. It is the 978 UAT devices that can have that feature. For a normal transponder, you would need Mode C, not S.

 

[Neal Howard]

A mode-S/ES1090 transponder is going to become the airplane equivalent of a toll-tag.

 

[Jay Honeck]

How? It's because you're not taking into account the full scope of the 2020 bull****. If you have no intention of using ATC services, you are not required to have ADS-B out at all. So actually no, they won't know who you are. If you stay out A/B/C airspace and below 10,000ft, absolutely nothing changes for you. You can keep anonymously squawking 1200 with a traditional Mode C transponder. They will not know who you are. They didn't before, they don't today, and they still won't in 2020. The ADS-B Out mandate applies only to the scenarios were you would already be on a discreet code tied to your tail number now today anyway. It changes nothing.

What you say is technically true, but (a) I'm gonna need ADS-B out (actually I've already got it), because I fly into controlled airspace a lot, and (b) with ADS-B out we are squawking our personal information even when the transponder is set to 1200.

This gives the feds surveillance of us, with all of our personal information, even when we're just buzzing around the island. Short of turning my transponder off, there's no way (that I know of) to fly anonymously.

IMHO, this capability will eventually be used to bill us, just like they do in Europe. I hope I'm wrong!

 

[Jay Honeck]

That's a transponder. Not a UAT. Of course it doesn't have an anon mode. It is the 978 UAT devices that can have that feature. For a normal transponder, you would need Mode C, not S.

Right, but....in most (?) current ADS-B out installations, it is (a) part of the transponder, and (b) not something you can turn OFF.

At least you can't in my installation. If the transponder is on, I am broadcasting ADS-B out.

 

[docmirror]

I believe this is sort of a 'gotcha!' moment.

As I understand, one can operate in anon mode, just as if they were flying around, mode C with 1200 on the txp. However, where the utility of ADS-B out comes in, is exactly where a discreet code would be given to a mode C aircraft. In this case, with mode C, they will know your call sign, and only your call sign unless they ask for further info(which is so rare as to be non-existent). However, with ADS-B out, your discrete code suddenly provides a great deal of PII to the receiving station, which would make it much, much easier to apply a billing system rather than asking for the operator info on the radio. Sort of like the difference between going steady with a girl, and getting married.

Sure, it could be done using the call sign from mode C and manual inputting, but with ADS-B, it's all right there on the computer, and a simple scrape and file algorithm could generate bills very simply.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

I hope you're wrong too. However the point I keep trying to make here, is that they could bill you today. ADS-B is not being built so they can start billing you. They've had that ability for decades.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I believe this is sort of a 'gotcha!' moment.

As I understand, one can operate in anon mode, just as if they were flying around, mode C with 1200 on the txp. However, where the utility of ADS-B out comes in, is exactly where a discreet code would be given to a mode C aircraft. In this case, with mode C, they will know your call sign, and only your call sign unless they ask for further info(which is so rare as to be non-existent). However, with ADS-B out, your discrete code suddenly provides a great deal of PII to the receiving station, which would make it much, much easier to apply a billing system rather than asking for the operator info on the radio. Sort of like the difference between going steady with a girl, and getting married.

Sure, it could be done using the call sign from mode C and manual inputting, but with ADS-B, it's all right there on the computer, and a simple scrape and file algorithm could generate bills very simply.

You have summed up my fears quite succinctly, thanks.

It's not that they couldn't do it before. It's that it will now be child's play to do it.

 

[N801BH]

How? It's because you're not taking into account the full scope of the 2020 bull****. If you have no intention of using ATC services, you are not required to have ADS-B out at all. So actually no, they won't know who you are. If you stay out A/B/C airspace and below 10,000ft, absolutely nothing changes for you. You can keep anonymously squawking 1200 with a traditional Mode C transponder. They will not know who you are. They didn't before, they don't today, and they still won't in 2020. The ADS-B Out mandate applies only to the scenarios were you would already be on a discreet code tied to your tail number now today anyway. It changes nothing.

They could implement user fees for ATC services tomorrow if they wanted to. They don't need ADS-B to do that. It is totally unrelated. I'm against it, i'm simply saying ADS-B has nothing to do with it.




Excuse me sir, but you have no clue what you're ignorant mouth is spewing. You know nothing about me or my beliefs. Your foil hat is clouding your thought process. Not everyone with a remote connection to the government is a power mongering liberal hell bent on taking your right or be moron away from you. Basically everything you said is completely wrong and in fact the total opposite. So just in case there was any doubt about your foolishness, you've made sure to prove it. Congratulations. Maybe if you read the other things I've posted in this thread, or anything else I've posted, or maybe taken your medication, you would comprehend this.

.....