Poll - slip through base and final?

Slipping turn to final

  • Yes, slip 'er in.

    Votes: 49 87.5%
  • No, go around

    Votes: 7 12.5%

  • Total voters
    56

SkyHog

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Everything Offends Me
You have a lot of excess energy on downwind. You turn base a bit too early and realise you are high. A forward slip is always a nice way to lose altitude, you do that, and realize that when it is time to turn final, you're still too high. Do you slip that turn through base to final, being sure that you won't stall the plane? What would you do?

The question is not about stabilized approaches, its about whether you feel comfortable slipping through the base to final turn.
 
practically standard operating procedure in my glider. airbrakes on it are pretty weak, but it slips extremely well.

Also, a turning slip is a PTS requirement for PP-Glider and above.
 
Taking Nick's scenario a bit further, you blow through the extended centerline because you're faster than normal although you are using the normal sight picture of when to start your turns. You.....tighten it up to get back to the centerline....you pull back to arrest sink rate. Viola!

Weird! This is Richard on Michael's computer. I logged in to POA under my own name, it recognized me under my own name--thank you Richard for logging in--but my post shows up under Michael's name.
 
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But that's the thing, Michael - you don't pull back to arrest the sink rate, you release the slip. That would have to be a given before you'd try the maneuver.
 
But that's the thing, Michael - you don't pull back to arrest the sink rate, you release the slip. That would have to be a given before you'd try the maneuver.

Exactly.

It's quite common for me to go into a steep slip from downwind, through base, and onto final. I know I have did this with you several times.
 
I don't see a big problem with it - except one.

If the reason I had so much energy left and was so high on base was because of poor planning/execution for the pattern on my part, I'd probably go around rather than try to salvage it. After all, it was bad flying that got me there; what makes me think I'd do anything better trying to save it?
 
I don't see a big problem with it - except one.

If the reason I had so much energy left and was so high on base was because of poor planning/execution for the pattern on my part, I'd probably go around rather than try to salvage it. After all, it was bad flying that got me there; what makes me think I'd do anything better trying to save it?

I can see the reasoning for this view. But I also have a view to where learning how to save something that didn't quite turn out perfect could be a very valuable skill later. You may not always have full power available to go around in the event of a slight error in the pattern.

I think everyone needs to set their own hard deck as far as stability goes. If I am on the runway centerline I am willing to be quite a bit out of the normal realm of landing stability. For example quite often with no winds I will hold a full slip down to about 20 feet. I know how long it takes me to correct for it.

One thing my initial instructor told me is that he was amazed how I could fly such a crappy pattern and pull it together to be a nice landing. Maybe I just suck at patterns--most likely I just don't really care because I'm not too concerned about being in a real landing configuration unless I am at a very low altitude.

I do tend to forget this though and it can bite me in the ass in larger airplanes, aka twins, because I'm so used to not caring so much about my final approach until I am down to 1/4 mile. Well this attitude doesn't play nice in the heavier faster airplane category.
 
In learning to nail shortfield landings in the 182RG, I always felt like I was too high and would want to slip. The owner flew with me last week telling me he didn't want me slipping. Fly a crabbed approach and kick in rudder before flare. The greater emphasis was on speed control for a steep descent but stable. In the RG, the difference between 65 kts and 63 kts is that of a powered glider compared to a free-falling refrigerator.

By slipping, I'd somehow feel like I was more stable. But even at 65 kts, I was flying a refrigerator. On top of that, it's been often stressed as slip being the last resort if you have no chance of going around (lost power) and final is too short to get stable. Any cross-controlled approach shouldn't be SOP with exception as mentioned in flying gliders (no chance of go-around).

The owner (777 captain) said all he cares about on final and calls out in his mind are "aim point and airspeed" with those pretty much his only scan on short final. He applies this regardless; whether he's flying a Skyhawk or heavy jet. Slipping to get there shouldn't be an option if you start out stable.
 
My wife (who is usually in the plane) is very uncomfortable in the plane when in a slip so I just don't do them. If I screw up the execution/planning of getting the plane to the ground just go around. I have nothing to prove when I am flying. Safety (#1) and comfort of my passengers(#2). If I am by myself or my pilot flying buddy no problem.
 
Any cross-controlled approach shouldn't be SOP with exception as mentioned in flying gliders (no chance of go-around).

I disagree. Landing in a crosswind justifies a cross-controlled approach. How are you going to know if you have too much crosswind for your airplane if you stay in a crab until a few feet and attempt to kick out...and don't make it out. Cessna the airplane MIGHT take it. Taildragger--good night.

Boeing 777 is not a single engine light general aviation trainer.

I recommend you read this article by Rick Durden about the last 10 feet of a landing. It's very--informative and comes from a guy that knows what he is talking about.
http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/192672-1.html
 
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I will post a video demonstrating a stall entry from a turning slip in a 172 by this evening.
 
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If you're asking what I think you're asking, a very very short final that I don't think I can lose altitude fast enough by slipping, I'd go around. There's no reason to do an cross-controlled turn from base to final and get set up for a spin so close to the ground.

If there's a crosswind (not part of the poll question) you don't turn cross-controlled. You turn coordinated, then you can crab or slip to stay on the runway centerline only once established on final.
 
This is a worthy topic, Nick. Lord knows I've slipped in airplanes plenty of times when I've either screwed up the approach or obstacles made it necessary.

It's an amusing topic to me as well, though. When people ask which is harder, fixed wing or rotorcraft, I answer (and believe) that fixed wing is harder.

The difference is that I have almost total control of my landings. So long as I'm in the pattern at some reasonable speed, let's say 60-70 KIAS in either helicopter, then all I have to do is adjust my rate of descent with collective and rate of closure with my intended landing spot with cyclic. THe only reason I would ever need to initiate a go around would be either traffic of some kind on my spot or because I was getting near to a settling with power (vortex ring state) situation, and that's just a question of monitoring airspeed and descent speed.
 
A couple months ago I needed a slipping base to final turn (tower had me turn base really early), and I couldn't figure out how to do it. I had the left pedal to the floor, with enough opposite bank to keep it straight. I tried adding more bank, as well as letting off some rudder. Neither method was giving a good enough turn rate. I just gave up and called a go-around.
 
A couple months ago I needed a slipping base to final turn (tower had me turn base really early), and I couldn't figure out how to do it. I had the left pedal to the floor, with enough opposite bank to keep it straight. I tried adding more bank, as well as letting off some rudder. Neither method was giving a good enough turn rate. I just gave up and called a go-around.

Were you in a left hand pattern? If so this would not have been a slipping turn--this would have been a skidding turn. A skidding turn getting too slow can result in a spin. I'm betting you were trying to use left rudder to do your turn and using right aileron to try to do the slip part of it--not what you wanna do when you want to turn left.

Just remember to use rudder opposite of your intended bank. The way I do this is by starting my bank to the left and getting it nice and steep while feeding in right rudder along with dropping the nose way down.

Banking to the left while feeding left rudder could prove to be very..uh..dangerous in the pattern.
 
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How are you going to know if you have too much crosswind for your airplane if you stay in a crab until a few feet and attempt to kick out...and don't make it out. Cessna the airplane MIGHT take it. Taildragger--good night.

Jesse it's very easy to determine. If you can't hold the centerline with aileron as you "kick out the crab" in the flare, you go around. Unless the wind is extremely ragged you can even wait until one wheel touches and see if you can hold the plane straight.

The notion of needing or even being able to determine whether you can handle flaring in a crosswind during your final approach has some serious shortcomings. For one thing when you yaw the plane at the last moment, you can take advantage of it's inertia. And there is absolutely no guarantee that the wind on final will be the wind you get in the flare or at touchdown. Gusts generally come with a change in wind direction as well as strength and the wind direction is also very likely to shift direction significantly over the last 30 feet above the ground. If that shift happens to be further off to one side then your careful prediction of success will prove false.

But the two biggest reasons to avoid a large slip down final are that it's uncomfortable for passengers and it steepens your approach significantly should you lose power at a time when it's already likely to be steeper than normal due to a strong partial headwind component.

Neither method is without issues and I think a good pilot should be proficient with either.

To Nick's original question, my answer is it depends on the airplane and situation. I have never slipped the Baron on base and rarely do so on final. For one thing the plane's inertia is high which makes it difficult to arrest excessive sink on final and the complication of slipping makes it difficult to manage the considerable kinetic energy present compared to something like a 172. In addition, with two props windmilling plus gear and fully deployed flaps there is already a lot of drag to dissipate excess energy so when a slip is "needed" it's a sign that you've really screwed things up already.

In my little taildragger OTOH, I often slip on final and occasionally on base if I'm making a really tight approach for some reason. Since it has no flaps and very little drag (because of the low approach speed) most of my approaches are flown with little or no power so there's not much sink to be gained by reducing power and that leaves slips to manage the descent angle. If I flew the approach with the kind of power typically used on a 172 during final with full flaps, I'd end up with about a 2 degree slope.

Slipping for drag increase by itself doesn't increase the danger of a stall or spin simply because done properly your airspeed should be allowed to rise somewhat during the slip and if you relax the rudder and unload slightly at the onset of any stall it will be cancelled unless you just caught your tailwheel on a powerline. Increasing airspeed a little during a slip increases the effectiveness significantly in terms of dissipating energy since the drag goes up with the square of the speed, and squaring a bigger number has a bigger effect.
 
Jesse it's very easy to determine. If you can't hold the centerline with aileron as you "kick out the crab" in the flare, you go around. Unless the wind is extremely ragged you can even wait until one wheel touches and see if you can hold the plane straight.

I respectfully disagree with the technique. Yes it is possible that you may not have the same winds at final and that is usually the case. But if you start to slip into the crosswind on final approach you are getting a feeling for the situation earlier. Your feet and mind are active and you are constantly adjusting for the crosswind that you are encountering. It gets you zoned into the landing. The parts of your brain that make this all work are already firing. The passenger part is a valid statement--but I have never had a passenger tell me the landing bothered them and have only heard positive things about my landings from passengers.

In my view it's just lazy in light singles to be sitting there crabbing the whole way and kicking out at the last few feet. My problem with this is that you aren't doing the kicking part until the last few feet so now you are trying to flare, adjust for your drift, adjust the nose alignment, figure out if the winds are too much, and possibly go around all in a matter of seconds. I have flown with several pilots who do this crab n' kick method..and I have yet to see one touchdown without a side load.

Your Baron is a different story. It can take more wind. C-150, C-172, DA-40, C-182, it just doesn't work well...IMO.

lancefisher said:
But the two biggest reasons to avoid a large slip down final are that it's uncomfortable for passengers and it steepens your approach significantly should you lose power at a time when it's already likely to be steeper than normal due to a strong partial headwind component.
I have never bothered a passenger. Slipping into the wind does not steepen your approach because you have power in (if you're one of these long final partial power guys..well justified in some airplanes). Not only that you are on the glideslope. If you are on the glideslope just like the grab guy is doing your approach is not steeper. If the engine were to quit you exit the slip. Good chance you might even have less flaps than the other guy at this point and be better off. How long does it take to get out of the slip? A second? Most of my patterns are power off from downwind or base and I slip because I need a steeper approach because I'm higher than most other pilots. If the big fan up front quits blowing I exit the slip and now I'm nice and high and close without a fear of making the runway.
 
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But the two biggest reasons to avoid a large slip down final are that it's uncomfortable for passengers and it steepens your approach significantly should you lose power at a time when it's already likely to be steeper than normal due to a strong partial headwind component.

Neither method is without issues and I think a good pilot should be proficient with either.
Agreed.

A point I forgot to make earlier is I'm doing this to commercial PTS. The whole idea is I have passenger(s) paying for this ride with reasonable expectation of comfort. Will I have paying passengers signed up for a shortfield landing? Probably not likely unless I'm flying into some odd locations in the bush. But, I do have to perform with smooth control and stability regardless of who I'm flying and where I'm landing.
 
I respectfully disagree with the technique. Yes it is possible that you may not have the same winds at final and that is usually the case. But if you start to slip into the crosswind on final approach you are getting a feeling for the situation earlier. Your feet and mind are active and you are constantly adjusting for the crosswind that you are encountering. It gets you zoned into the landing. The parts of your brain that make this all work are already firing. The passenger part is a valid statement--but I have never had a passenger tell me the landing bothered them and have only heard positive things about my landings from passengers.

I'll have to ride with you sometime so I can make some snide remarks about your landing. The pressure alone should force a mistake.:D

And I agree that your method is easier, but I still maintain that you should to do well with both.

In my view it's just lazy in light singles to be sitting there crabbing the whole way and kicking out at the last few feet. My problem with this is that you aren't doing the kicking part until the last few feet so now you are trying to flare, adjust for your drift, adjust the nose alignment, figure out if the winds are too much, and possibly go around all in a matter of seconds. I have flown with several pilots who do this crab n' kick method..and I have yet to see one touchdown without a side load.

I can't see how having and using alternative tools should be considered "lazy". If anything sticking with one technique for all situations would seem the lazy way and your concern over having to cope with more in a matter of seconds supports my view. As to side loads on the gear, few pilots who haven't flown taildraggers from asphalt make consistent zero drift landings whether they slip on final or kick out, or even if there's no crosswind at all. I've flown with plenty of pilots who can manage to touch down without a side load after crabbing all the way down final. I even manage that myself now and then in various airplanes. I'll bet Tony can do it every time in a 172.

Your Baron is a different story. It can take more wind. C-150, C-172, DA-40, C-182, it just doesn't work well...IMO.

Not IME, I learned to "kick the crab" in a 172 and it worked quite well there. You are correct though, that an airplane with more mass relative to it's side profile will allow the pilot more time to touch down before the drift starts to become excessive without banking to compensate, but that just means I can cope with more crosswind in the Baron than I could in a 172 with the same technique and skill level.

I have never bothered a passenger. Slipping into the wind does not steepen your approach because you have power in (if you're one of these long final partial power guys..well justified in some airplanes). Not only that you are on the glideslope. If you are on the glideslope just like the grab guy is doing your approach is not steeper. If the engine were to quit you exit the slip. Good chance you might even have less flaps than the other guy at this point and be better off.

But now you are faced with making the dreaded crab kickout. If you've never done that before how is this better?

Jesse, the most important point I'm trying to make here is that you should become comfortable with both techniques and then choose the one that works best for a particular situation. Until you are fully proficient either way I don't think you're in a good position to judge the merits of each.
 
Jesse, the most important point I'm trying to make here is that you should become comfortable with both techniques and then choose the one that works best for a particular situation. Until you are fully proficient either way I don't think you're in a good position to judge the merits of each.

I understand that. It's not that I can't do the other one. It is common for me to full slip down to about five feet, correct, and land. This is with cross winds, with no wind. Etc. I have no problem with going from one angle and aligning in a few feet.

I've done both--I don't like the other one.

I'll have to ride with you sometime so I can make some snide remarks about your landing. The pressure alone should force a mistake.:D
You haven't messed up when I've been with you yet. I like to give people some pressure with my video camera. Sort of like when you told Jason at the Midwest fly in that I was recording his landing when he was on final approach.. That was pretty funny.

I'm no where near perfect. I mess up sometimes. For example--here is a video where I messed up:
http://jesseangell.com/downloads/oops.wmv

I misjudged the amount of control force needed for the flare because I must have been a little faster than I normally am. This was at the Faribult with you landing in front of me in the Baron.
 
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Slip away -- after all, "There's no approach which can't be salvaged."*

*Caption on an old Navy safety poster showing the bits and pieces of what had once been an A-4 Skyhawk laid out neatly on the floor of a hangar.
 
You have a lot of excess energy on downwind. You turn base a bit too early and realise you are high. A forward slip is always a nice way to lose altitude, you do that, and realize that when it is time to turn final, you're still too high. Do you slip that turn through base to final, being sure that you won't stall the plane? What would you do?

The question is not about stabilized approaches, its about whether you feel comfortable slipping through the base to final turn.

LGB tower used to clear me for "Turn base at the tower" if I wanted so I could do a midfield landing getting in in front of a line of students in 150s & 152s. This would almost always (unless I had passengers, don't want to scare the passengers) result in a hard slipping diving 180* turn for the runway. Never a problem. LGB tower used to be good to me.
 
I don't normally slip on base. If I'm high on base I'll drop the flaps and pull the power. After the turn to final I'll slip it.
 
I just recorded a video of a turning slip stall. A slipping stall in a 172 is less exciting than a normal stall. In this video I held the airplane in a continuous stall for four thousand feet of altitude. This started with a turning slip back into a regular coordinated stall and back into a turning slip stall. I will have the video online shortly.

Based on what I just experienced I would much rather stall a 172 in a turning slip at a low altitude than any other method. Recovery would take me about 50 feet max.
 
Here is my video of a turning slip forced into a stall in a Cessna 172:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xDxj_CRfqY

As you can tell more or less the airplane will just mush towards the ground. It is actually more tricky to hold the 172 in a normal stall as you must constantly correct for one wing wanting to drop. If you do a turning slipping stall you just hold the controls and spin around dropping like a rock. The nose will slowly bob up and down around the horizon. Control input for the slip was full right rudder, almost full aileron, and yoke held back to the stops. I held the yoke to the stops method throughout that entire stall demonstration. Sometimes the 172 will drop enough that it recovers enough airspeed to go back up as you can see. I really wish that instructors would go over this stuff with their students in each airplane they fly so that they are not afraid of certain parts of the flight envelope.

Edit: It looks like youtube is sucking right now. If that link doesn't start working soon I'll upload somewhere else
 
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Based on what I just experienced I would much rather stall a 172 in a turning slip at a low altitude than any other method. Recovery would take me about 50 feet max.
I would rather simply not stall the 172 in the pattern at all -- I can recover from that in zero feet!:D
 
Were you in a left hand pattern? If so this would not have been a slipping turn--this would have been a skidding turn. A skidding turn getting too slow can result in a spin.

Whoops, I guess it would have been important to mention that it was a right hand pattern. :dunno:
 
Whoops, I guess it would have been important to mention that it was a right hand pattern. :dunno:

K. If it's right hand pattern....

You would feed in a bunch of left rudder and right aileron. As you can tell from my video you can easily make the airplane turn.

Are you still a student? If so -- ask your CFI.
 
Your video makes it pretty obvious. I just chickened out of it before I had enough aileron in to get a decent turn rate.

I'm not a student, but I've only got ~100 hours, so I'm still dangerous.
 
Your video makes it pretty obvious. I just chickened out of it before I had enough aileron in to get a decent turn rate.

I'm not a student, but I've only got ~100 hours, so I'm still dangerous.

Go up high and practice..Better yet do it with a CFI. I started that video at about 6,000 AGL.
 
Slipping turns should be a part of every pilot's repertoir. If you fly regularly enough, there will come a day when you won't be able to go-around, mainly due to weather. You're VFR in a light GA airplane and the wx is closing in fast and you're trying to get down, so you turn base too soon and and there's a big, green-black, crackling-lightening filled thunderstorm approaching on the other end of the field: you gonna go around 'cause you're too high? I think not. An immediate hard slip and turn to final is the natural thing to do.

IT CANNOT STALL IF YOU DON'T PULL BACK TOO HARD ON THE YOKE.

That is what you should be learning in stall practice; the BACK PRESSURE you are imposing on the airplane and the FEEL of the controls when a stall is approaching.

Also, cross-control stalls are supposed to be taught to student/private pilots. Unfortunately, because they are not on the PP checkride, they don't get taught. But they're supposed to be. They're in the Airplane Flying Handbook, and according to good teaching principles and FAA recommendation, we are supposed to teach at least everything in the Handbook. At least.

So, you didn't get the training you were supposed to get, so, get an instructor and get proficient at doing cross-control stalls, and slipping turns.

You will see that x-control stalls always come from SKIDDING turns, never SLIPPING turns. If you stall/spin it from a slipping turn, you just held in rudder throughout the stall untill it went over the top and became a SKIDDING turn in the other direction.

There must be SKID to SPIN.
 
Here is my video of a turning slip forced into a stall in a Cessna 172:

What was your CG on that flight? Assuming you weren't near the aft limit it would be interesting to repeat the experiment in that condition. I suspect the behavior may be rather different (not sure about that though).
 
What was your CG on that flight? Assuming you weren't near the aft limit it would be interesting to repeat the experiment in that condition. I suspect the behavior may be rather different (not sure about that though).

I thought about that earlier today. I'd have to look in the POH to see what my actual CG was. That was full fuel with just me. I'd be interested in doing it with more weight in the back....
 
Taking Nick's scenario a bit further, you blow through the extended centerline because you're faster than normal although you are using the normal sight picture of when to start your turns. You.....tighten it up to get back to the centerline....you pull back to arrest sink rate. Viola!

Weird! This is Richard on Michael's computer. I logged in to POA under my own name, it recognized me under my own name--thank you Richard for logging in--but my post shows up under Michael's name.

As described, this could result in a cross-controlled stall.

These are extremely dangerous.

Have your CFI demonstrate one for you at 5000 MSL sometime. You will discover that even with the sharpest, most perfect recovery procedure, you will lose at least 400 feet! Now, how high are you above the ground on base to final?! Around 400 feet, more or less!
 
As described, this could result in a cross-controlled stall.

These are extremely dangerous.

Have your CFI demonstrate one for you at 5000 MSL sometime. You will discover that even with the sharpest, most perfect recovery procedure, you will lose at least 400 feet! Now, how high are you above the ground on base to final?! Around 400 feet, more or less!

It could result in a cross controlled stall if the pilot sucks. Keeping things coordinated and understanding the load that you are putting on your wings goes a long ways. If I bank steep in the pattern I generally keep the wings very unloaded. The entire purpose of my steep bank generally is to lose altitude since that is the whole purpose of landing. Those that are afraid of steep banks and afraid of seeing the ground come up towards them fast are the ones that end up pulling and stomping on the rudder trying to tighten the turn. That is how they die. If they would have simply banked steeper, kept it coordinated, and allowed the nose to drop without holding any back pressure they would still be here.

If you read what Henning wrote, which I agree with, it's hard for people to understand that they are better off to bank steep than try to cheat it with the rudder.

As far as a cross controlled stall leading to 400 feet of altitude loss it really depends on how you are cross controlling. Slip vs. Skid are two different deals. Even if you do happen to stall it in a slip in what I have tried it in (Archer, 172, and Diamond) the stall doesn't amount to much of anything too scary. Take a look at the video I posted. This was a cross controlled stall as hard as I could cross control it (slipping)... Skidding is a whole different deal.

If I need to lose altitude fast in the pattern. I have two things that I need to do. The first one is I have to keep my airspeed manageable because if I just bank it steep I'll be going over the numbers at Vne. The way I do this is by pulling throttle to idle, kicking a ton of right rudder in along with left aileron (left hand pattern) and bank it steep easily approaching 60 degrees while keeping back pressure off the controls and the nose way below the horizon normally gaining some airspeed as a safety buffer. You would be surprised how fast you come down in a very manageable controlled state.

This is just me saying what can be done. I'm not saying that other people should do this. We all are in aviation for different reasons. I like to challenge myself in the air constantly improving my skill. That's not what everyone is into.

Have your CFI demonstrate one for you at 5000 MSL sometime.

5,000 MSL could be a problem for some folks...
 
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My wife (who is usually in the plane) is very uncomfortable in the plane when in a slip so I just don't do them. If I screw up the execution/planning of getting the plane to the ground just go around. I have nothing to prove when I am flying. Safety (#1) and comfort of my passengers(#2). If I am by myself or my pilot flying buddy no problem.

I am with you on this one. But I also will reduce power and use lift the nose up to get an airspeed of about 65knots. The plane will drop pretty good at that time, sort of like an elevator.
 
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