Politically Correct ?

[TheTraveler]

How I train my employees for world holidays...

1) If you're giving the greeting first, always use "Happy Holidays". If the customer responds with a specific holiday greeting, respond with that same holiday greeting.

2) If the customer gives you the greeting first, return the same greeting.

I've never had any problems, but when the employee is hired into the international department they already know that they need to be aware and respective of multiple cultures, kind of a prerequisite.

 

[SkyHog]

Wait, I don't understand the complaint (nor do I understand those agreeing with you). You said your piece ("Happy Holidays"), and they said theirs ("Happy Holidays", "Happy Kwanzaa").

So what part ****es you off? That you didn't get to force someone to be a Christian and respond with a Christian-like salutation?

I get ****ed every year that people have eliminated the right to say "Merry Christmas," and I am most certainly not a God-Fearing, Bible Clutching, young chap. I see it as something more than that, but I also recognize that as much as I fight to be able to say "Merry Christmas," there are others that may not wish to say it back.

So if I wish someone "Merry Christmas," and they reply with "Happy Hannukah" or "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy Shut the **** Up Day," I take it in the spirit intended - that's the celebration they choose to have, just as I choose to celebrate Christmas.

Now - when it comes to removing Christmas from schools, but allowing Hanukkah celebrations...that's where I draw the line.

 

[Henning]

Cracker, that's how 'Muricans make sure that America stays a rotten mean hateful and intolerant place to live. Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation and population in the world yet Christians and Hindus live all over without the same type of problems, why?

The answer is simple, SE Asia has been living with these population densities since before recorded history. Africa may be the cradle of life, but Asia is the cradle of high population density. They have had thousands of years to develop the social culture and traditions that enable people to get along at these high densities, they did this by building cooperative societies. We still work under the Rugged Individualist NIMBY model which pits everyone in mortal combat for conflict resolution.

 

[JOhnH]

The answer is simple, SE Asia has been living with these population densities since before recorded history. Africa may be the cradle of life, but Asia is the cradle of high population density. They have had thousands of years to develop the social culture and traditions that enable people to get along at these high densities,

But there is a big difference between the way high density Asian countries get along and the way we get along with our medium density population. They are almost entirely homogenious. In Japan, almost every one is Japaneese. In China, almost everyone is Chinese. There is basically no racial or ethnic diversity. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage to them, but it does drastically reduce many of the various struggles we deal with here.

 

[redtail]

We have a mall near us that, according to one store asst manager, we talked to, "ordered" the store mangers to instruct their employees to use the phrase, "happy giving," to avoid offending muslims.
Not atheists. Not people of the Jewish, Hindi, Buddist, or other religions. Just muslims. The mall ownership is/was supposedly of muslim origin.

We returned the items we had purchased, made notes of the name of each store we would have purchased from and contacted each corporate office, letting them know we merrily spent money elsewhere and would be continuing to do so in the future.

Although I doubt the validity of this story, I wonder what greeting would "OFFEND" muslims.

Although we don't celebrate the holiday....Certainly "Merry Christmas" couldn't offend a muslim if he/she knows anything about the Quran.

In that book, God calls his servant Jesus (peace be with him).........THE MESSIAH. We expect Christ to return with God, on the day of judgement!
NOT Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

 

[Henning]

But there is a big difference between the way high density Asian countries get along and the way we get along with our medium density population. They are almost entirely homogenious. In Japan, almost every one is Japaneese. In China, almost everyone is Chinese. There is basically no racial or ethnic diversity. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage to them, but it does drastically reduce many of the various struggles we deal with here.

This is largely true, but again, it's a chicken and egg situation. Regardless, the homoginy of the society vs aggression and violence is still a mental aspect of the human condition of selfishness.

 

[redtail]

Just this morning, I had two fellow employees come into my control room and greet me with "Merry Christmas", as they reached out to shake my hand.

I shook their hands and said "thank you, same to you". One guy has known me for over ten years, the other about 3 weeks.

 

[TheTraveler]

In Japan, almost every one is Japaneese. In China, almost everyone is Chinese. There is basically no racial or ethnic diversity.

This is a great point, and I agree with the main idea. I will never forget my first time in Asia and the realization that I was now a minority.

After traveling the world, Asia still sticks out in my mind as the most unique simply because anywhere else you go, there is a certain amount of diversity. In Asia, everyone else is Asian, and you feel like you're the only one!

I would say however that there is racial and ethnic diversity, but only to them, and on an internal level that is usually and largely indistinguishable to westerners.

 

[Henning]

This is a great point, and I agree with the main idea. I will never forget my first time in Asia and the realization that I was now a minority.

After traveling the world, Asia still sticks out in my mind as the most unique simply because anywhere else you go, there is a certain amount of diversity. In Asia, everyone else is Asian, and you feel like you're the only one!

I would say however that there is racial and ethnic diversity, but only to them, and on an internal level that is usually and largely indistinguishable to westerners.

This is an interesting observation and very telling of the shallowness of American and European education of the world outside the occidental sphere of influence.

Asians are not 'all Asians', there are hundreds of different cultures that all live in Asia. Even within China there are multiple languages and three distinct cultures with disparate physical features to tell them apart. The differences go on and on between Asians in looks, language, cultural heritage, and colonial history. Just because you don't notice the differences between them doesn't mean they don't exist. The only distinction you saw was the visual difference between yourself and 'them'.

 

[Everskyward]

After traveling the world, Asia still sticks out in my mind as the most unique simply because anywhere else you go, there is a certain amount of diversity. In Asia, everyone else is Asian, and you feel like you're the only one!

I would say however that there is racial and ethnic diversity, but only to them, and on an internal level that is usually and largely indistinguishable to westerners.

Right. Just because Asians "all look alike" doesn't mean that they are in any way fond of each other.

 

[TheTraveler]

This is an interesting observation and very telling of the shallowness of American and European education of the world outside the occidental sphere of influence.

You're changing the meaning of what I posted. Maybe I should clarify: all Asian as compared to Western, which is exactly why I wrote "I would say however that there is racial and ethnic diversity, but only to them, and on an internal level that is usually and largely indistinguishable to westerners." Of course not all Asian are just "Asian", that's a cheap shot assuming that I would make such a claim.

Aside from my awareness, personally I can't tell the difference between Southern Chinese and Mongolian by looking at someones face. It takes dress, language, etc. But a lot of Asians that I've talked to have told me that they really can't either. They may be able to say northern, southern, tropical region, eastern, or something similar, but they usually can't pin it down any more specific than that.

A lot of people who don't travel or aren't involved internationally may be ignorant of these things, but I don't think it's intentional. I'd like to see a lot more awareness from Westerners on such topics, but there comes limit to this. Asking someone to educate themselves on any culture outside of their own when they don't deal with anything other than their own on a daily basis is difficult to do.

From Asia to the Middle East to Eastern Europe and the former USSR, I've always had a great and interesting time hearing views on their ethnic backgrounds versus others, especially within their own regions.

 

[Henning]

Thing is, the whole Asians are like that because they are homogenous is a fallacy, they are not homogenous, they just don't view combat as a system of general conflict resolution.

 

[SCCutler]

Right. Just because Asians "all look alike" doesn't mean that they are in any way fond of each other.

"All look alike"?

Heh.

 

[Everskyward]

But a lot of Asians that I've talked to have told me that they really can't either.

I'm Asian and I can't tell the difference either. I was also raised in a mostly caucasian society and I was truly surprised when, as a young adult, I was "educated" by other Asians about why there are still bad feeling between different nationalities and groups.

 

[Everskyward]

"All look alike"?

Heh.

Well, we do, Spike.

But to get back on subject, I recently attended an event where all the workers were supposed to get up and say "Merry Christmas" (or whatever) in their own language. I heard English, Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese, Burmese, Tagalog, Indonesian and Spanish. That was pretty cool.

 

[Herman vanOoijen]

But there is a big difference between the way high density Asian countries get along and the way we get along with our medium density population. They are almost entirely homogenious. In Japan, almost every one is Japaneese. In China, almost everyone is Chinese. There is basically no racial or ethnic diversity. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage to them, but it does drastically reduce many of the various struggles we deal with here.

Even in Japan, as homogenous as it is, there is a significant group that is looked down upon by the rest of the population, this ethnic group is Japanese of Korean descent. In Indonesia, a predominantly Islamic country, organized Christianity is tightly controlled by law and regulation. etc.

 

[Palmpilot]

"All look alike"?

Heh.

Certainly an exaggeration.

 

[TheTraveler]

I recently attended an event where all the workers were supposed to get up and say "Merry Christmas" (or whatever) in their own language. I heard English, Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese, Burmese, Tagalog, Indonesian and Spanish. That was pretty cool.

That is cool, and I really like when these kinds of things happen. Conversations developing into the nuances and differences between languages or, if possible, how it came to be that way, have always been fascinating to me.

 

[Palmpilot]

How about, "Happy New Taxation Period"?

Unless you're on a fiscal year...

I just go with "Happy winter solstice celebration"!

I guess I'd have to change that when I was in the southern hemisphere though.

 

[Henning]

Even in Japan, as homogenous as it is, there is a significant group that is looked down upon by the rest of the population, this ethnic group is Japanese of Korean descent. In Indonesia, a predominantly Islamic country, organized Christianity is tightly controlled by law and regulation. etc.

I lived in Indo for a bit over a year, Bali, Jakarta, Padang, and out on in the Mentawis and down. The Mentawis are predominantly Christian and I didn't hear any complaining about the regulations upon them, nor in Jakarta. Bali for the most part is Hindu and they don't care who you are or what you believe, just come spend money. For a Westerner, the only indication during the general day that the country is Islamic is you hear the prayers from the towers everywhere. Another quick observation will be that the public isn't that bloody observant and treats Islam as most Americans treat Christianity, it's a social gathering. Nowhere in Indo did I see what I saw in Saudi Arabia as far as the subjugation of women and people in general by a Religious Police force. There is still some power the Imams have in Indo, but it's nowhere near the Mid East Islamic culture.

 

[Jay Honeck]

You're ticked off because Footlocker has freedom in this country to run its business the way it wants? No, of course not. Your mad at the way they choose to run it. So, you exercised your right to not shop there. What's the problem? That's how it works...it's freedom.


Btw, the kid was probably just being a snarky kid with the Quanza thing. I can't imagine Footlocker policy is to only say "Happy Quanza". But, if that was their stance then I would support their right to take that stance.


Btw, enough with the self outrage on the perceived 'war on Christmas'. Fer Christ's sake that holiday needs a war on it. Christmas has become a monster that has grown and grown and taken over an entire Month of the year! Thanksgiving in November is failing as a backstop as people put their XMas lights and decorations up earlier and earlier. Halloween is in the sights of Christmas and should be worried for its survival.

We need a war on Christmas. We need to beat that thing back down to a week or two AT MOST!


Getting worked up on how some minimum wage kid gives your 'holiday greeting'...priceless.

Post of the Year right here. Amen!

Christmas has become a grotesque economic orgy, where for two months people spend money they don't have buying stuff no one wants for people who don't need it. By the time Christmas is finally here we can't stand to even hear another carol -- and that's really sad.

I would support criminal penalties for anyone who even mentions the holiday (which means "Holy Day", by the way) before December 5th.

 

[TheTraveler]

I lived in Indo for a bit over a year, Bali, Jakarta, Padang, and out on in the Mentawis and down. The Mentawis are predominantly Christian and I didn't hear any complaining about the regulations upon them, nor in Jakarta. Bali for the most part is Hindu and they don't care who you are or what you believe, just come spend money. For a Westerner, the only indication during the general day that the country is Islamic is you hear the prayers from the towers everywhere. Another quick observation will be that the public isn't that bloody observant and treats Islam as most Americans treat Christianity, it's a social gathering. Nowhere in Indo did I see what I saw in Saudi Arabia as far as the subjugation of women and people in general by a Religious Police force. There is still some power the Imams have in Indo, but it's nowhere near the Mid East Islamic culture.

I agree with that, I had the same experience and feeling (I was only in and around Jakarta). But I was always warned to check with someone that I trusted before venturing to other areas because there exists towns across Indonesia, not always far from Jakarta, which are heavily controlled, policed, contain extremists and radicals, and extremely dangerous.

Personally I didn't see it, it was a pretty pleasant experience, and much calmer than one of my stays in Thailand.

 

[LandSickness]

I just came back from the bank, where my drive thru Teller said "enjoy this holiday season". I kinda like it....

 

[Henning]

I agree with that, I had the same experience and feeling (I was only in and around Jakarta). But I was always warned to check with someone that I trusted before venturing to other areas because there exists towns across Indonesia, not always far from Jakarta, which are heavily controlled, policed, contain extremists and radicals, and extremely dangerous.

Personally I didn't see it, it was a pretty pleasant experience, and much calmer than one of my stays in Thailand.

The only thing I didn't like about Jakarta was the polution and filth EVERYWHERE, black skies unless it had just rained, fish kills that left the entire Batavia marina basin so dense in floating fish you could walk on them, then the stench that came with them mingled with the open sewage that runs down the rivers and floods the streets at high tide, I always hated riding my scooter home a high tide and spent more than one night at Hotel Alexis to wait for the streets to dry. I was running the nicest yacht in Indo at the time so I had some privilege and used it to go ride around with a person guide I'd borrow from the marina staff. I never had a problem anywhere in Indo and the most threatened I ever felt was when we spotted a Sumatran tiger stalking the trail ahead of us, and the times I was driving through the gap between the islands next to Mt Penetubo as it still has a habit of spitting boulders into the air.

The people in Indo though, I can't voice a word of complaint about. I've said it many times here, Americans should all travel to Jakarta. Jakarta is the Indonesian analog to Los Angeles in both population and layout of being a seaward, leeward bowl against the mountains and serves as a fine example for us to observe. We can observe what America would be like now ecologically had we not instituted the Clean Air and Water act in 72 IIRC. It also serves as an example that even in abject poverty and the worst traffic on the planet, people can still be nice to each other and have a low crime rate.

It also demonstrates how miserable the quality of life is even for the rich when you have no social services programs. People never want to believe me though because it means they may have been wrong in the past in their thoughts and actions, and Americans don't cotton to that.

 

[TheTraveler]

The only thing I didn't like about Jakarta was the polution and filth EVERYWHERE, black skies unless it had just rained, fish kills that left the entire Batavia marina basin so dense in floating fish you could walk on them, then the stench that came with them mingled with the open sewage that runs down the rivers and floods the streets at high tide, I always hated riding my scooter home a high tide and spent more than one night at Hotel Alexis to wait for the streets to dry. I was running the nicest yacht in Indo at the time so I had some privilege and used it to go ride around with a person guide I'd borrow from the marina staff. I never had a problem anywhere in Indo and the most threatened I ever felt was when we spotted a Sumatran tiger stalking the trail ahead of us, and the times I was driving through the gap between the islands next to Mt Penetubo as it still has a habit of spitting boulders into the air.

The people in Indo though, I can't voice a word of complaint about. I've said it many times here, Americans should all travel to Jakarta. Jakarta is the Indonesian analog to Los Angeles in both population and layout of being a seaward, leeward bowl against the mountains and serves as a fine example for us to observe. We can observe what America would be like now ecologically had we not instituted the Clean Air and Water act in 72 IIRC. It also serves as an example that even in abject poverty and the worst traffic on the planet, people can still be nice to each other and have a low crime rate.

It also demonstrates how miserable the quality of life is even for the rich when you have no social services programs. People never want to believe me though because it means they may have been wrong in the past in their thoughts and actions, and Americans don't cotton to that.

You spent a lot more time in and around Indo than I did. I was there a few times for a few months each, and never ventured too far from Jakarta. It certainly was filthy in some respects, but I saw some pretty clean areas of the city also. However, I cannot forget the stench on some evenings, and it took all I could do to not vomit right there in the street.

Alexis...oh wow... Thank you for reminding me! Only those who have been there can truly know what treasures are hidden inside the Alexis. You're certainly not the first, millionth, or the last expat to have been warmly welcomed there.

I've got to stop now, I feel like the thread is being hijacked. Someone should start another about international travel.

Sorry for hijacking!

 

[Henning]

You spent a lot more time in and around Indo than I did. I was there a few times for a few months each, and never ventured too far from Jakarta. It certainly was filthy in some respects, but I saw some pretty clean areas of the city also. However, I cannot forget the stench on some evenings, and it took all I could do to not vomit right there in the street.

Alexis...oh wow... Thank you for reminding me! Only those who have been there can truly know what treasures are hidden inside the Alexis. You're certainly not the first, millionth, or the last expat to have been warmly welcomed there.

I've got to stop now, I feel like the thread is being hijacked. Someone should start another about international travel.

Sorry for hijacking!

The Alexis is the jewel of Indonesia and a wonderful place to go for a bath after that long assed flight from LA. you just gotta love that spa.

It's not really a hijack though because the thread is about changes we need to make culturally.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The only thing I didn't like about Jakarta was the polution and filth EVERYWHERE, black skies unless it had just rained, fish kills that left the entire Batavia marina basin so dense in floating fish you could walk on them, then the stench that came with them mingled with the open sewage that runs down the rivers and floods the streets at high tide, I always hated riding my scooter home a high tide and spent more than one night at Hotel Alexis to wait for the streets to dry. I was running the nicest yacht in Indo at the time so I had some privilege and used it to go ride around with a person guide I'd borrow from the marina staff. I never had a problem anywhere in Indo and the most threatened I ever felt was when we spotted a Sumatran tiger stalking the trail ahead of us, and the times I was driving through the gap between the islands next to Mt Penetubo as it still has a habit of spitting boulders into the air.

The people in Indo though, I can't voice a word of complaint about. I've said it many times here, Americans should all travel to Jakarta. Jakarta is the Indonesian analog to Los Angeles in both population and layout of being a seaward, leeward bowl against the mountains and serves as a fine example for us to observe. We can observe what America would be like now ecologically had we not instituted the Clean Air and Water act in 72 IIRC. It also serves as an example that even in abject poverty and the worst traffic on the planet, people can still be nice to each other and have a low crime rate.

It also demonstrates how miserable the quality of life is even for the rich when you have no social services programs. People never want to believe me though because it means they may have been wrong in the past in their thoughts and actions, and Americans don't cotton to that.

Mount Pinatubo is located on Luzon, in the Philippines, not in Indonesia.

 

[Henning]

Mount Pinatubo is located on Luzon, in the Philippines, not in Indonesia.

That's right, Krakatoa, sorry, I confuse those names a lot. There's another one that erupted on Java IIRC when we were there, was still erupting when I left.

 

[Herman vanOoijen]

I lived in Indo for a bit over a year, Bali, Jakarta, Padang, and out on in the Mentawis and down. The Mentawis are predominantly Christian and I didn't hear any complaining about the regulations upon them, nor in Jakarta. Bali for the most part is Hindu and they don't care who you are or what you believe, just come spend money. For a Westerner, the only indication during the general day that the country is Islamic is you hear the prayers from the towers everywhere. Another quick observation will be that the public isn't that bloody observant and treats Islam as most Americans treat Christianity, it's a social gathering. Nowhere in Indo did I see what I saw in Saudi Arabia as far as the subjugation of women and people in general by a Religious Police force. There is still some power the Imams have in Indo, but it's nowhere near the Mid East Islamic culture.

My sister and brother-in-law [geologist] just returned from Banda Aceh, where they finished a long term assignment working on a project funded by the World Bank. My comment about Indonesia was a reflection of what they told me. It may be specific to that part of Sumatra...

 

[Henning]

My sister and brother-in-law [geologist] just returned from Banda Aceh, where they finished a long term assignment working on a project funded by the World Bank. My comment about Indonesia was a reflection of what they told me. It may be specific to that part of Sumatra...

Yeah, we'll, that's more a Civil War/Seperationist political/ economic issue up there. They have the same economy over there as we do, same people run it (remember Indonesia was a Dutch Colony during the Industrial revolution and the business ties of those days still exist). We even fought WWII over the Java oil fields, they're why Peal Harbor got bombed, Japan needed that oil and rubber and so did we. Basically what they have there is what we would have if we just skipped the pretense and put Cheney at the head of Exxon and just give give him dictatorial power.

There may be overt religious pretext to get the riling factor way up, but the reality is it's about money.