poh vs. engine operator's manual?

GeorgeC

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I've been reading the 182k POH and comparing it against the O470 operator's manual lately. If there is conflicting advice, who wins?

Specifically, the POH prohibits ops at peak EGT, but the engine manual says it's ok below 65% power.

Also, the engine operator's manual specifies 2300 as "optimal cruising rpm". How does Continental define "optimal"?
 
The airframe manufacturer's manuals always take precedence.
 
That, but I like to also is the more conservative and later revision of the data.

Also good to read up on the type groups, I've got some max temps I use for operations in my 185, they are lower then the POH or Cont manual, I lean and cowl flap for max 350 cruise, 380 climb.

Just use common sense
 
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The "red fin" or "red box" ideas are what the OP needs.

https://www.jpinstruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mike-Bush-Red-BoxRed-Fin.pdf

Basically, for cylinder longevity, you want to avoid high pressures in the cylinder, and you do this by avoiding certain ranges of EGT.

At high power operation, you want to avoid peak EGT by a lot. At 65% power you want to avoid peak EGT by a little, and at power below 60% it doesn't matter as all EGTs are safe.
 
I'm firm believer that you can run an O-470 as hard as you want and won't hurt the cylinders as long as they're kept cool.

My O470 is rated at 230 HP. An IO470 is rated at 260.

So, when I'm running at 100%, I'm already only producing 88%.

At 1350 hours my cylinders were all perfect when my engine was torn down last fall for OH. It was my bottom end that had issues.

And I ran the living sh*t out of it. 70% to 75% and leaned aggressively was not unusual. But, my cylinders never saw over 325dF in cruise even on the hottest days, 350dF in climb.

Mine must have thought it was a Lycoming!

With that said, my cylinders were the originals manufactured in 1958. Maybe Conti was cranking out better cylinders back then.

Ted?
 
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Until now, I've been a 65%, lean-till-rough-enrich-till-smooth kind of guy, as I'd been flying a plane with no EGT or CHT.

The new ride has a JPI, so it will be easy to keep an eye on CHTs.

I like margin, so I tend to aim for the middle of green arcs, so 2300 rpm sounds good to me, though I understand the appeal of 2200 rpm and WOT.

Tim, what rpm did you run at? I'm expecting it'll do 150 mph TAS on ~12gph all day long.

Hopefully the weather will hold up this weekend so I can actually fly the thing.
 
I run at 23"/2300 RPM until I get to an altitude where it won't maintain that MP any longer. Like you, I lean until rough, enrichen until smooth. This typically puts me close to 11 GPH.

Once I pass 6,000' or so, it won't maintain 23" any longer so I'll go to WOT and might increase the RPM to 2400.

Sometimes I run WOT lower.

I get somewhere between 132 and 135 kts TAS at altitude burning that 11GPH. Mine's fastest from about 6000' to 8000'. I installed flap gap seals last year at annual and they gave me about 3 to 4 kts but I still flight plan at 125 since that gives me conservative fuel burns and timeframes.
 
An IO-470 has higher compression than an 0-470 so the output analogy is flawed.

I run my 0-520 consistently at 24/2400 or higher (I fly low). I don't concern myself with CHTs until they get to 400* and at that I've got 15% more before redline. I was taught to feel the engine in any plane and find the sweet spot that provides smooth operation. My motor likes to go hard. That's typical with carbureted big bore Continentals that I know.
 
I've been reading the 182k POH and comparing it against the O470 operator's manual lately. If there is conflicting advice, who wins?

Specifically, the POH prohibits ops at peak EGT, but the engine manual says it's ok below 65% power.

Also, the engine operator's manual specifies 2300 as "optimal cruising rpm". How does Continental define "optimal"?

I believe that "legally" the rules say the POH. That being said I go with the latest recommendations from the engine manufacturer. I haven't seen one POH in the airplanes that I fly that have any updated information in them to reflect the realities of the current fuels going into the airplane or the current knowledge available on what's best for the engine. Yeah, I rent old airplanes. Some POH's were written before 100LL, before digital engine monitors and before about 40 years of accumulated knowledge about those engines.
 
I believe that "legally" the rules say the POH. That being said I go with the latest recommendations from the engine manufacturer. I haven't seen one POH in the airplanes that I fly that have any updated information in them to reflect the realities of the current fuels going into the airplane or the current knowledge available on what's best for the engine. Yeah, I rent old airplanes. Some POH's were written before 100LL, before digital engine monitors and before about 40 years of accumulated knowledge about those engines.

Thanks for reminding me, I have a store credit with Spruce, and they have the O-470 operator's manual. I'll be interested to see 2011 guidance vs. 1967 guidance.
 
Yeah, I rent old airplanes. Some POH's were written before 100LL, before digital engine monitors and before about 40 years of accumulated knowledge about those engines.

Good points. :yesnod:
 
Thanks for reminding me, I have a store credit with Spruce, and they have the O-470 operator's manual. I'll be interested to see 2011 guidance vs. 1967 guidance.

Your POH/Operators hand book should have been updated as required by all of the modifications that has occurred. either by STC, or Field approval. right along with the equipment list and W&B.

If it has not been, it should have failed Annual, because it is the IAs responsibility to insure the A/C is in its properly altered condition.
 
If you can lean to peak EGT, then you can go LOP. LOP. For an O-470 in a 182, there's not much you can do to hurt it on 100LL.

Tim, I really have no idea regarding cylinder quality over the years, and specifically if 1958 was better than, say, 2000. In general, my understanding is that they've gotten better over the years and not worse. However, as you pointed out, you have a very low-stress engine that saw low temps. 470s in general are known for good cylinder life, and yours only had a bit over 1300 hours (despite lots of years), which is low time for your cylinders. The real cylinder cracking and other issues were especially prevalent on the TSIO-520s that were not only being operated hard, but also very hot.
 
An IO-470 has higher compression than an 0-470 so the output analogy is flawed.

Well, except the cylinders are (essentially) the same. The higher compression is accomplished by domed cylinders, no change to the cylinders required.

Thus, I'd argue that the higher compression in an IO-470 cylinder substantiates my argument...not nullifies it.
 
I believe that "legally" the rules say the POH. That being said I go with the latest recommendations from the engine manufacturer. I haven't seen one POH in the airplanes that I fly that have any updated information in them to reflect the realities of the current fuels going into the airplane or the current knowledge available on what's best for the engine. Yeah, I rent old airplanes. Some POH's were written before 100LL, before digital engine monitors and before about 40 years of accumulated knowledge about those engines.

That.
Sometime in the 80's, after I installed a per-cylinder digital engine monitor and started following the actual in-flight CHTs/EGTs, I discovered that the original Cessna-installed single cylinder CHT probe, which was mounted on Cylinder #5 (of 6), was nowhere near the hottest cylinder, ever, and there was sometimes a wide temperature spread among the cylinders (up to 100 deg F in some extreme cases).
This made me realize that by monitoring the Cessna CHT monitor during climb, I had been actually destroying the engine (which in fact happened, I had to replace a cylinder which got warped or cracked).
So I called Cessna in Wichita and asked to speak with an engineering rep, and got through to an old veteran who sounded like one of the design team. I described to him what I had discovered, and he refused to accept it. He kept saying, that's impossible, the engine case is a big heat sink, there can't be more than a few degrees difference between any two cylinders. Well, we agreed to disagree, and ever since then, over thousands of hours, I have been "flying the temperatures": never allowing any CHT to get too hot, and haven't had any engine issue since.
So, anecdotal evidence, but support for the fact that Cessna was not aware of engine reality (e.g. how fuel/air or the cooling flow is distributed to normally aspirated 6 cylinders in real life) when they wrote their manuals and hooked up that single CHT probe.
 
Well, except the cylinders are (essentially) the same. The higher compression is accomplished by domed cylinders, no change to the cylinders required.

I think you mean by domed pistons, Tim. ;)

So I called Cessna in Wichita and asked to speak with an engineering rep, and got through to an old veteran who sounded like one of the design team. I described to him what I had discovered, and he refused to accept it. He kept saying, that's impossible, the engine case is a big heat sink, there can't be more than a few degrees difference between any two cylinders.

Airplane manufacturers and engine manufacturers have historically been at odds. Remember, if you're making an airplane, an engine is simply an inconvenient and LRU whose job is to produce thrust (in our case by producing horsepower). Unfortunately, these engines also take fuel (always more than is desired), have weight (always more than desired), and require cooling air (which adds drag). Despite some popular beliefs, old airplanes weren't overcooled. Some had good cooling (my guess is by accident) and many had abysmally awful cooling. Then you throw in degradation of the cooling baffles over the years....
 
Just tossing this to the wolves...

When discussing rules of thumb for the O-470, keep in mind the O-470-U is an oddball in the normally aspirated versions and may or may not need different care and feeding than the previous versions. (It's the higher compression late model that has a few known problems and can't have a MoGas STC applied.) A friend has one. He keeps up on all the U model weirdnesses.

Mainly a reminder that it can't be included in the generalizations of how to operate "an O-470".

We have an O-470-S which has a nice list of updates done as they learned about things that munch O-470 engines, but just prior to Cessna's bump to the U model.

Ours had some early cylinder work apparently from owner number one who flogged it and flew it somehow totally wrong from the factory, and then the second owner and us have had zero cylinder issues.

The second owner did the MoGas STC and unknown how many hours he flew it on MoGas vs 100LL. No cylinder or valve problems for him. He did a prop overhaul at one point.

Knock on wood maybe we'll make it to TBO and beyond without having any reason to pull jugs. I dread the day it acts like it has "morning sickness" or we finally find metal coming out of it during an oil change. Mostly because it's been so damned reliable and starting over on that sucks. After major work we all know sometimes crap goes wrong early, and then tapers off and nothing happens again until the ramp in the curve at the end.

Compressions are still well into the 70s and even a 79 last year on one, when we were flying the hell out of it.

This year worries me a bit, somehow all three of us managed to have a "light logbook" year in the same year. Airplane has sat too much. I don't like that. Hard on things.

Ours won't run right LOP at all. It's smooth at peak EGT (we have the Cessna gauge) and always rough no matter what tricks you try LOP. Pretty common in the O-470.

Climbs, we keep it cool with gas and speed and cowl flaps open for whatever that's worth.

Cruise, because we're already essentially at 6000 MSL at takeoff unless we go downhill, it's rare we can't go straight to peak EGT in cruise or slightly rich if it's hot out.

It's just been a workhorse. Poor thing even tried valiantly to run when a plug wire fell off in Nebraska for me. Just got shaky on that mag during a run up. Heh.

I definitely love the O-470 tank-like reputation and that it matches our experience with it. Big simple dumb obnoxiously loud six banger that sounds like an overgrown Harley at idle.

We lean the hell out of it on the ground and then lean it for cruise. Average and median fuel burn over many years is steady at 11.5 GPH at this altitude.

We've still got 500+ to TBO and we're way over on the number of years thing.

Motor mounts needed replacing a couple of years ago and rubber stuff slowly dries out and cracks here. Not much humidity to speak of so corrosion isn't our nemesis. Dry rot of flexible stuff usually is. The hoses from the wing root to the bladders were toast when we did the one bladder that failed. Rock hard and cracks forming. All replaced back then. Same thing with anything rubber under the cowl.

We have a split in one of the baffles. I'm sure if we had a multi probe CHT we'd see a hot spot somewhere from it. Or not. Hard to say. But we don't have any major overheating problems or problems keeping it cool as long as we feed it some gas. It likes ROP during a hot high climb or temps climb too much for my taste.
 
I run at 23"/2300 RPM until I get to an altitude where it won't maintain that MP any longer. Like you, I lean until rough, enrichen until smooth. This typically puts me close to 11 GPH.

23 squared at 5500' indeed put me around 150mph TAS. The JPI said 11gph and 72%. The POH and my own calculations put it around 60-65%, though I might be a bit draggier than book due to lack of wheel pants. My CHTs were closer to 400, so I may need to tweak things a bit to get them down to 380.

For an O-470 in a 182, there's not much you can do to hurt it on 100LL.

Not even running it 25 ROP per the POH? :)
 
Not even running it 25 ROP per the POH? :)

While not optimal, the main thing that will do is result in higher CHTs and shorter cylinder life.
 
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