POA safety record??

kgruber

kgruber

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Do the "Pilots of America Forum" members have a better safety record than the general pilot population?

Thanks from "Desert Aire," M94.
 
I have no idea what the records are. The thread about zoom climbs to pattern altitude points out that we all have our misconceptions about what is safe and what isn't. Since most incidents & accidents are caused by the stick actuator in one way or another, I doubt if the POA population has a safety record that varies significantly from the total pilot population.
 
I know of only three PoA members who have died; though there are likely more. I believe all three died of cancer. Cancer being a slow killer allows the person to let others know of their condition. Aviation death obviously is generally too sudden.

I know of three Usenet rec.aviation.piloting posters who died. All three died in aircraft accidents.
 
We've lost two members that I can think of to fatal crashes. One was rather active the other had just a few posts.
 
Only in their own mind. Many here that I don't want to be near when they are flying, much less in the same airplane.
 
There may be some truth to the feeling that there is an lower crash rate in active members of sites like POA compared to pilots not active in forums like this. There are a number of articles I have read over the years that suggest that pilots that are active in "continuing education" from sources such as online forums, etc have lower crash rates. I thought that was part of the rational behind the FAA wings program.

We rarely find complete agreement on any subject here, but it is rare that I do not learn something new, or relearn something I forgot, or learn that something I thought was so is not from a thread. For me at east, most threads have been educational, and usually entertaining as well.
 
KA550 said:
Only in their own mind. Many here that I don't want to be near when they are flying, much less in the same airplane.
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I've flown with lots of PoAers and have yet to find one I wouldn't fly with again.

OTOH there are a couple who post here that I haven't met yet that I probably wouldn't get in an airplane with.
 
kgruber said:
Do the "Pilots of America Forum" members have a better safety record than the general pilot population?

Thanks from "Desert Aire," M94.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly believe that pilots who are "engaged" with their sport, hobby, or profession are better pilots than those who don't think about their craft between flights. So, yes, folks who engage here should be better pilots...
 
That's like asking if Quiet Birdmen have a better than average safety record.

Of COURSE they do. Few of them fly anymore, and by definition, they've made it to old age. POA seems about the same.

Of the people I see posting here, few seem to fly very often -- and some seem to have never flown. Their safety record is stellar, I'm sure!
 
Crappy. Landing gear incident 3 yrs ago. Sorry, I'm already dragging down our record.
 
kgruber said:
Do the "Pilots of America Forum" members have a better safety record than the general pilot population?

Thanks from "Desert Aire," M94.
Click to expand...

Been flying for 30 + years.. Owned a few certified planes.... Now fly a VERY unique, overpowered Experimental....... I have not even put a scratch on any of them....:no::nonod:....;)
 
I can't think of any PoA members who have died for aviation induced reasons. However I can think of several who have somehow crashed or otherwise made an insurance claim. Don't know if that makes us better or worse.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I can't think of any PoA members who have died for aviation induced reasons. However I can think of several who have somehow crashed or otherwise made an insurance claim. Don't know if that makes us better or worse.
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Then there are those who've claimed to have been in multiple crashes only to post later they have never had an accident. :dunno: :rolleyes2:
 
kgruber said:
Do the "Pilots of America Forum" members have a better safety record than the general pilot population?

Thanks from "Desert Aire," M94.
Click to expand...

Yes, because I sometimes question if some (not all) of the folks fly at all.
 
Maybe we do... More safety minded perhaps. Maybe not. Other than a tire blowout on landing, I've never had an incident. (zero damage to aircraft other than rubber tire in that incident)
 
I'd bet it's about the same. Writing about it isn't the same as doing it. Those who are doing it regularly and maintaining proficiency for the type of flying they do in the equipment in which they normally do it have a better chance than the others. Just like with all other segments of the pilot population.
 
There is evidence that people who are in type clubs typically have better safety records. In the Twin Cessna group, I think that would be due to the general culture pushing for more safety and the fact that someone who joins a type club is probably fairly safety conscious anyway. On the forums, we have lots of type-specific questions and discussions as well.

We also have a flight risk assessment tool that the members are encouraged to use. I don't, but I know others do. I don't think PoA really does a whole lot for safety beyond badger anyone who crashes and offers a forum to say "That would never happen to me because I don't make stupid mistakes."
 
I say the statistics are an unknown. It's not like a POA member that bites the big on in an aviation accident can report on their demise.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I say the statistics are an unknown. It's not like a POA member that bites the big on in an aviation accident can report on their demise.
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True, but most of us who participate are friends with enough others who could report it. Plus, the community is small enough that word gets around.
 
Didn't you know? Just like everyone is an above average driver and lover, all POA pilots are good, too.

I'm amazed at the people who don't understand selection biases.....the stats are unknown, PERIOD. "I'm aware of..." is not a valid statistical tool, and can (and very often does) lead you in dramatically wrong directions.
 
jesse said:
I believe those that are active flying here are safer than the average pilot. I base that on my experiences flying with them versus my experiences doing flight reviews for the general public.
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You obviously haven't flown with me! <insert evil laugh here> I think I skeered Teller - he was saying something about "stabilized approach" but I didn't pay any attention...too busy dropping 500 ft from over the numbers or something like that.
 
We'll never know, because there is no realistic way to normalize data, but I suspect that, among frequent participants who actually fly, there may be a modest but meaningful benefit.

I can speak with certainty to a meaningful number of times when members here have received specific safety counseling from other members, both publicly and "behind closed doors." These have included help in making judicious "no-go" decisions when circumstances were marginal (weather, skills or mechanical), and targeted safety counseling of a member whose ADM appeared to others to be questionable.

In addition, we have seen multiple events of members helping other members in times of need, and I have specifically benefited from this on at least one occasion. To put it bluntly, having added, less-challenging, options in your decision matrix can help make a pilot's decisions safer ones.

So, in my view, yes, I think participation at a forum like PoA, if approached with a reasonable attitude, can and will improve safe practices among pilots, and I believe PoA has specifically improved safety for its regular participants.

And, in that vein, I thank all of you who have helped and counseled me in the years since I have been flying and since PoA has been around (close to the same time frame).
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There is evidence that people who are in type clubs typically have better safety records. In the Twin Cessna group, I think that would be due to the general culture pushing for more safety and the fact that someone who joins a type club is probably fairly safety conscious anyway. On the forums, we have lots of type-specific questions and discussions as well.
Click to expand...

Probably true for type clubs that focus at least part of their time on flight training. I'm not picking on them, but the generic Cessna Pilots Assn has virtually zero to do with piloting and 100% to do with systems and mechanical knowledge of the type. This is not unexpected considering it's founder is a mechanic.

Comparatively if you attend certain coursework in say one of the Beech or as you mention, Twin Cessna organizations, there will probably be at least a discussion of flying technique or real flying with an instructor involved.

I haven't really found a Cessna Singles "pilot's" association that focuses on flying technique. Well, other than hunting down CFIs with a bejillion hours in Cessna spam cans.

Here's a fun side question: If you were designing a Cessna single-specific weekend course, what would you put in it for a curriculum?

One example I can think of is Doc's "load the back up with magazines" posts... How many people have flown their Cessna regularly at MGW or MGTOW (and in the latter case known they had to fly for X amount of time before they could land)?

Other possibilities:

Spins for the models that can do it legally?

Crazy pre-flight games looking for stuff pre-broken by a mechanic that are hard to spot?

Learn to change a tire?

Time in a rental that doesn't have a damn "no unimproved surfaces" clause in its insurance and a chance to actually land on gravel/grass?

Another event some type clubs do is having a few type experts go over your aircraft with a fine-toothed comb just as part and parcel of the event. Point out stuff you may have missed or didn't know about.

Seems like there's room in the Cessna single world for such things, but it'd be a labor of love, knowing how cheap most Cessna single drivers are. Dunno.
 
denverpilot said:
Probably true for type clubs that focus at least part of their time on flight training. I'm not picking on them, but the generic Cessna Pilots Assn has virtually zero to do with piloting and 100% to do with systems and mechanical knowledge of the type. This is not unexpected considering it's founder is a mechanic.

Comparatively if you attend certain coursework in say one of the Beech or as you mention, Twin Cessna organizations, there will probably be at least a discussion of flying technique or real flying with an instructor involved.
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Well, I haven't been to any of the functions yet, but the monthly magazine does focus heavily on safety, piloting, and mechanical aspects. At the functions there are a lot of similar discussions on the agenda, and the gathering a couple months back looked like a lot of fun and very educational. I was sorry to miss it.

My question is whether the correlation equates to causation. I.e. are pilots safer because the organization provides resources to help make them safer, or did they join the organization in part because of a safety mindset?

I can say that membership for me has probably helped improve my safety practices in some ways due to new ideas and being around a safe culture. However, also in that same time period included getting married, becoming a parent, and entering an industry for which safety is huge. So which came first? :dunno:
 
My POA safety record is perfect: I have never had an accident or incident while reading or posting on POA.
 
Most aviation accidents are due to faulty judgement. I suspect people who are engaged in aviation on a frequent basis are more likely to have good judgement.
 
denverpilot said:
Probably true for type clubs that focus at least part of their time on flight training. I'm not picking on them, but the generic Cessna Pilots Assn has virtually zero to do with piloting and 100% to do with systems and mechanical knowledge of the type. This is not unexpected considering it's founder is a mechanic.

Comparatively if you attend certain coursework in say one of the Beech or as you mention, Twin Cessna organizations, there will probably be at least a discussion of flying technique or real flying with an instructor involved.

I haven't really found a Cessna Singles "pilot's" association that focuses on flying technique. Well, other than hunting down CFIs with a bejillion hours in Cessna spam cans.

Here's a fun side question: If you were designing a Cessna single-specific weekend course, what would you put in it for a curriculum?

One example I can think of is Doc's "load the back up with magazines" posts... How many people have flown their Cessna regularly at MGW or MGTOW (and in the latter case known they had to fly for X amount of time before they could land)?

Other possibilities:

Spins for the models that can do it legally?

Crazy pre-flight games looking for stuff pre-broken by a mechanic that are hard to spot?

Learn to change a tire?

Time in a rental that doesn't have a damn "no unimproved surfaces" clause in its insurance and a chance to actually land on gravel/grass?

Another event some type clubs do is having a few type experts go over your aircraft with a fine-toothed comb just as part and parcel of the event. Point out stuff you may have missed or didn't know about.

Seems like there's room in the Cessna single world for such things, but it'd be a labor of love, knowing how cheap most Cessna single drivers are. Dunno.
Click to expand...

Don't forget wheel landings vs. three point. It's easy to get in the habit of just doing one or the other (at least for me - I hardly ever did three points in the Cessna single I used to drive).
 
By staying active in this forum ,I believe we have the ability to fly safer from learning others experience and taking others knowledge to good use.
 
Ability?

No way. Opportunity? Maybe.

But I think you're fooling yourself. Just like hanging around a car enthusiast website doesn't make you a better driver.
 
Don't know about anyone else here, but I'd be the last person to go bragging about a bent prop or runway overrun that was my fault. I think that fact would tend to throw off any "objective analysis" of the safety of interweb pilots.
 
I have never had any sort of incident flying GA. When I was flying to make a dollar the record is a little more spotty. I have: Mulched a pelican with an engine, taken a lightning strike which resulted in a fire, trimmed a spruce tree with a rotor while trying to get a hoist off a narrow beach, and blown the wig off an Admiral's wife landing on the ramp at E-City NC. :yikes: :D
 
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