PoA Jet Ski Project

Ok, last thing tonight. This is interesting. I just pulled out the plugs. Note that this is probably an hour on brand new plugs, and much of that at idle. Did around four short runs of WOT tonight:

Plug from cylinder #1:

plug1.jpg

Cylinder #2:

plug2.jpg

Cylinder #3:

plug3.jpg

--

Strangely, plug#1 looks almost unused. The others look like wet fouling. Hmm.
 
You are running on 2 cylinders, something is blocking the intake port to #1.
 
1 is not burning any fuel or oil, so there is a blockage in the fuel system on that cyl. It MUST be repaired before running anymore as it will overheat and burn with no oil. 2 and 3 have modest oil fouling as a result of a lot of oil premixed. You can clean them with a plastic brush but no metal brush or they will get magnetized and not work.

The carb on 1 has to be checked for fuel delivery, and for obstructions in the metering. This is a job for an expert. If you take the carb off, and take it apart make sure you document what you take off and where it goes back. There is a diaphragm and a fuel metering pin, and a couple of jets, along with some narrow passages. All that will need to be cleaned before putting it back in service.
 
You can potentially disassemble and clean the carb, but without a diagram it's a crap shoot if you get it right. You will need a can of carb cleaner, and a high pressure air compressor with a blast nozzle.

This is fairly common on pressure carbs that sit a long time. The ethanol in the fuel has gummed something up in there, not much different than the typical weed wacker or lawn mower engine, although lawn mowers are usually float type.

Look online for a jet ski carb rebuild book and see what you can find. If you are adventurous give it a try. If not, you'll be buying a new carb for it eventually.
 
1 is not burning any fuel or oil, so there is a blockage in the fuel system on that cyl. It MUST be repaired before running anymore as it will overheat and burn with no oil. 2 and 3 have modest oil fouling as a result of a lot of oil premixed. You can clean them with a plastic brush but no metal brush or they will get magnetized and not work.

The carb on 1 has to be checked for fuel delivery, and for obstructions in the metering. This is a job for an expert. If you take the carb off, and take it apart make sure you document what you take off and where it goes back. There is a diaphragm and a fuel metering pin, and a couple of jets, along with some narrow passages. All that will need to be cleaned before putting it back in service.

Doesn't the crank case provide a common plenum for the fuel/air mic from the carbs?
 
Is a messed up reed valve a possibility?

And is there anything I need to eliminate before digging into valves and carbs?
 
Check for spark after you've messed with the ebox. Reeds will still burn something, and that jug isn't firing at all. Usually carb problems.

<edit; bad reed problems usually make a funny burping sound as the air pressure backs up through the throttle plate. It's weird sounding. >
 
Think of it this way, if you got 40MPH with only 2 hitting, you'll get well into the 50s with all three. My 900ZXi would do 56 on the gauge, but I really didn't trust it a lot. They will scoot when things are running right.
 
Is a messed up reed valve a possibility?

And is there anything I need to eliminate before digging into valves and carbs?

There's a few possibilities. You may as well start with the carb and work your way in. Make sure you have continuity of flow to the piston.

One quick thing you could check now, see if you have compression on #1.
 
Ok, thanks everyone. Looks like I'm in for quite a bit more work. I am glad Jessie mentioned pulling the plugs now or I probably wouldn't have discovered this for some time. I wasn't thinking about pulling the plugs. I did feel the tops/sides of each cylinder once I got the ski back home and all three were warm, but I'm not sure that's a valid test for anything.

Heading to bed, I'll start with a spark and maybe compression test tomorrow, the rest will have to wait until next week.
 
Ok, last thing tonight. This is interesting. I just pulled out the plugs. Note that this is probably an hour on brand new plugs, and much of that at idle. Did around four short runs of WOT tonight:

Plug from cylinder #1:

View attachment 36484

Cylinder #2:

View attachment 36485

Cylinder #3:

View attachment 36486

--

Strangely, plug#1 looks almost unused. The others look like wet fouling. Hmm.

Yea. Def. problem on number 1. Glad I mentioned you should check them :)

It's not getting fuel, plain and simple. I cannot think of a failure of the reed valve that would lead to it getting absolutely no fuel. I would put my money on a carb issue. Check the compression first.

I don't think an ignition issue would cause this. If it weren't getting spark it would be absolutely covered in your fuel/oil mix, IMO.

If you end up needing to order something check with me first. I think I have quite a few parts that I bought but didn't end up using.
 
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Typically in a two stroke the flow is carb->reed valve->crankcase->intake port->cylinder. The crankcase acts as a big old plenum, I would expect to see evidence of something if the problem was carb or reed valve. That plug is CLEAN. If the cylinder has compression I'm betting this one will be interesting.

Do you have a borescope to stick down a plug and look at the port alignment? Also if the exhaust port/pipe is blocked, then there will be no scavenging and no fuel introduced to that cylinder.
 
Typically in a two stroke the flow is carb->reed valve->crankcase->intake port->cylinder. The crankcase acts as a big old plenum, I would expect to see evidence of something if the problem was carb or reed valve. That plug is CLEAN. If the cylinder has compression I'm betting this one will be interesting.

Do you have a borescope to stick down a plug and look at the port alignment? Also if the exhaust port/pipe is blocked, then there will be no scavenging and no fuel introduced to that cylinder.

Man it'd be pretty damn hard to block the exhaust from the cylinder. It's a huge exit. Certainly possible though. If that were the problem I'd love to see a picture.

Minimal to no compression might make sense....
 
Minimal to no compression might make sense....

Even with no combustion taking place that #1 plug would be oily if it was getting fuel/oil flow.

Do jetski carbs use floats/float bowls?
 
Pull the engine......... Just kidding, that plug looks wet to me, I would check the spark first, I think it's very unlikely the carb is completely blocked, but I suppose it could be.
 
Pull the engine......... Just kidding, that plug looks wet to me, I would check the spark first, I think it's very unlikely the carb is completely blocked, but I suppose it could be.

The thing is, my fuel is dyed blue from the pre-mixed 2-cycle oil. I don't really see any evidence of blue fuel on that plug. But I'm going to check spark anyway because it's easy.
 
The thing is, my fuel is dyed blue from the pre-mixed 2-cycle oil. I don't really see any evidence of blue fuel on that plug. But I'm going to check spark anyway because it's easy.

Smell it, feel it. If fuel mix is getting there, the end of the plug will be oily. Compression is your first test.
 
The thing is, my fuel is dyed blue from the pre-mixed 2-cycle oil. I don't really see any evidence of blue fuel on that plug. But I'm going to check spark anyway because it's easy.

Again, be careful when checking that spark, you've got gas in that motor now.
 
Home for lunch. The #1 spark plug smells like fuel and has an extremely light coat of oily substance on it. I didn't even really see it until I rubbed the end of it with my finger and looked at my finger. It smells more like clean, unburned fuel, rather than with a burned smell like the other plugs. Still, I would think that if the proper amount of fuel was entering that cylinder, it'd be covered in fuel and oil. As it is, the white insulator part of the spark plug is still bright white.

Still planning on spark and compression tests as a first order of business. Looking ahead some, questions out of ignorance:

  1. If I end up targetting the carb as the issue, does "rebuilding the carb" with a kit like this automatically mean I have to re-tune the carb afterward? My understanding is that the re-tuning is the most difficult part of the carbs.
  2. It looks like there's a diaphragm and a fuel screen in the Keihin carbs. If those are gummed up or destroyed, I'm sure that can affect fuel flow. Can those be replaced without messing with a rebuild and re-tuning?
 
Home for lunch. The #1 spark plug smells like fuel and has an extremely light coat of oily substance on it. I didn't even really see it until I rubbed the end of it with my finger and looked at my finger. It smells more like clean, unburned fuel, rather than with a burned smell like the other plugs. Still, I would think that if the proper amount of fuel was entering that cylinder, it'd be covered in fuel and oil. As it is, the white insulator part of the spark plug is still bright white.

Still planning on spark and compression tests as a first order of business. Looking ahead some, questions out of ignorance:

  1. If I end up targetting the carb as the issue, does "rebuilding the carb" with a kit like this automatically mean I have to re-tune the carb afterward? My understanding is that the re-tuning is the most difficult part of the carbs.
  2. It looks like there's a diaphragm and a fuel screen in the Keihin carbs. If those are gummed up or destroyed, I'm sure that can affect fuel flow. Can those be replaced without messing with a rebuild and re-tuning?

I ave no direct experience with 2 cycle engine carbs. That said, balancing carbs on 1) a Yamaha SECA 750 (4carbs, 4 cylinders), 2) a late 60's Jag XKE with 12 cylinders and 3 2bbl carbs (IIRC), it's a real pain. There was a tool which I didn't have for the bike which sat across all 4 carb throats and measured vacuum pressure which would have made it much easier.

Presumably Doc, Jesse and Henning will give you better advice.

John
 
Yes, you can clean the filters without affecting the tune. If you leave adjustments in place, even doing a rebuild kit will not substantially affect tune. Tuning multiple carbs is made considerably easier with a flow meter.
 
Back when I used to do such things we used carb sticks:

http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08...690825&sr=8-1&keywords=motorcycle+carb+sticks

I've also used home made carb sticks similar to this:

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3213/dsc00735eq8.jpg

Yep. That'd work too. The one I saw actually had venturi for each carb all on a plate. The carb stick would be easier. At any rate, you have to get each carb adjusted for fuel/air mixture while getting all balanced as to flow per carb throat. For a 4 cycle. As I said, no experience with 2 cycle and carbs.

John
 
Home for lunch. The #1 spark plug smells like fuel and has an extremely light coat of oily substance on it. I didn't even really see it until I rubbed the end of it with my finger and looked at my finger. It smells more like clean, unburned fuel, rather than with a burned smell like the other plugs. Still, I would think that if the proper amount of fuel was entering that cylinder, it'd be covered in fuel and oil. As it is, the white insulator part of the spark plug is still bright white.

Still planning on spark and compression tests as a first order of business. Looking ahead some, questions out of ignorance:

  1. If I end up targetting the carb as the issue, does "rebuilding the carb" with a kit like this automatically mean I have to re-tune the carb afterward? My understanding is that the re-tuning is the most difficult part of the carbs.
  2. It looks like there's a diaphragm and a fuel screen in the Keihin carbs. If those are gummed up or destroyed, I'm sure that can affect fuel flow. Can those be replaced without messing with a rebuild and re-tuning?

Ultimately you have to tune the following things if you completely rebuild them:

1.) Each carb's needle needs to pop at the exact same pressure. This is determined by applying air pressure precisely and observing when it pops then adjusting the spring so it matches the others. This is done on all three carbs.

2.) Each carb has low and high speed mixture screws that need to be set. Each carb will be set a bit differently since each cylinder is a bit different. This is the time consuming part as there is no way to properly set it without being on the lake and the carbs are nearly impossible to adjust without removing them.

3.) When you advance the throttle on the ski there is the little butterfly valve in each carb that opens to allow more air in. It's critical that each carb lets the same amount of air in so each cylinder gets the same amount of power. There are lots of ways to do this...I did it with a piece of cardstock paper. Simply stuck the paper in one carb, adjusted it to where the valve put slight friction on the cardstock, then adjusted each other carb to match that friction.

The only special tool needed is one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Mikuni-Pop-Of...qid=1414691556&sr=8-1&keywords=Mikuni+Pop+Off I can loan you mine.

IF you tear down JUST that one carb and IF you are DAMN careful to observe the precise setting of the low and high speed screws and you get them back to the precise same spot you might be close enough. But it takes a very small amount of adjusting with them to make a massive change so I would be rather surprised if you were able to get it perfect again on the first attempt. The main point of tuning is to make sure the cylinder doesn't get so lean that it burns itself up.

The process to set the low and high speed screws is something like this:

Low Speed:
1.) Go on the lake, run about 30% throttle for 5 minutes then yank the lanyard off the ski so the engine dies instantly. Don't go to idle before you kill it. Kill it at that power setting.

2.) Now you're floating on the lake, remove the seat, try not to fall into the water or tip over and remove each spark plug. Observe the color. Adjust each carb's low speed as appropriate to get the right color.

High Speed:
Same process as low speed except you run at 100% throttle then cut it.

The results of the spark plug test won't tell you what to adjust if you don't do it precisely as described above. You have to look at the plugs immediately..can't idle around, etc.

Problem is like I said you damn near have to pull the carbs completely off to tweak each screw each test. I probably messed around on the lake with mine for a few hours for a couple days in a row before I had it like I wanted.
 
It sounded like it was hitting on all three in the driveway vid. Lets hope it's just a loose wire in the ebox and we can sort that.

If you do have to clean up the carb, I would leave the mixture screws alone, and take off the diaphram screws, then clean that out, and spritz a lot of carb cleaner in the jet area. Put it back together and see if it runs. If you want to clean out the mixture holes and check the jets the best way to do it is to precisely measure the number of turns it takes to screw the mixture screws down to the stop.

Example: The low mixture screw is at the 10 oclock position with the carb flat on the bench. You put your screwdriver in the slot, and turn clockwise while keeping track of every half turn. 4 oclock - half turn, 10 oclock 1 full turn, 4 oclock 1-1/2 turn, 10 oclock 2 full turn, and it stops at 2 oclock snug on the stop. At this point, you have gone 2 full and one quarter turn. Make a note of this, then take the mixture screw out by turning CCW. There will be an o ring and most likely a coil spring so don't lose these bits. try to find the exit in the carb throat for that passage, and use the air blast to blow BACKward from the throat through the mixture passage. If there's anything lodged in there, it will usually come out backward. Then use the carb cleaner, and air blast again, then put the mixture screw back in with a dab of grease on the o ring. Screw it all the way down to the stop again, then walk it back out 2 full and 1 quarter turn so it's again at the 10 oclock position. your fuel air ratio should be very close to where it was before.
 
I want to reiterate how grateful I am for the time everyone is putting into this thread. All of you have really been kind to me without even having met me. We'll have to fix the never-having-met part at a fly in or something! I may even wear my goofy-ass headlamp!

Anyway, thanks, all, for the carb comments. If it ends up being the carb, what I am hoping is that I can clean or replace the components that don't require a complete tear-down and re-tune. If I get in there and find the diaphragm completely deteriorated and the fuel screen gummed up, maybe I'll get lucky and just need to clean those up. The re-tuning sounds like a chore. I've already been doing some reading and watching some videos on these carbs, so I'll do some studying so I can get an understanding of how they work before I start pulling them off.

This is probably going to sound dumb but it's an indication of how much I have to learn: is fuel going to spray out of the spark plug hole when I've got the plug out and I'm cranking? I don't think there was any fuel in the tank last time I did it. I'm keeping in mind Paul's advice not to burn my face off. :lol:

Also, for tonight's compression test: Engine cold? WOT? Other plugs in or out?

Thanks!
 
Leave all the plugs out to spin it for the test, a light mist of fuel might come out if you have the throttle wide open, not an issue.
 
I want to reiterate how grateful I am for the time everyone is putting into this thread. All of you have really been kind to me without even having met me. We'll have to fix the never-having-met part at a fly in or something! I may even wear my goofy-ass headlamp!

Anyway, thanks, all, for the carb comments. If it ends up being the carb, what I am hoping is that I can clean or replace the components that don't require a complete tear-down and re-tune. If I get in there and find the diaphragm completely deteriorated and the fuel screen gummed up, maybe I'll get lucky and just need to clean those up. The re-tuning sounds like a chore. I've already been doing some reading and watching some videos on these carbs, so I'll do some studying so I can get an understanding of how they work before I start pulling them off.

This is probably going to sound dumb but it's an indication of how much I have to learn: is fuel going to spray out of the spark plug hole when I've got the plug out and I'm cranking? I don't think there was any fuel in the tank last time I did it. I'm keeping in mind Paul's advice not to burn my face off. :lol:

Also, for tonight's compression test: Engine cold? WOT? Other plugs in or out?

Thanks!

Focus on the spark first, if it was sparking you wouldn't smell fuel on the plug IMHO.....
 
Focus on the spark first, if it was sparking you wouldn't smell fuel on the plug IMHO.....

I will. I am just skeptical that it is because I tested it after putting my e-box back together just last week. Still, I need to eliminate that as the problem.
 
Mid-evening update:

I have no spark on plug #1. I tested plug #2 and #3 and both have spark. I swapped known working plug to #1 and no spark. Working now to diagnose the issue. I'm going back to the e-box as the culprit since that's what I've done the work on most recently.

Also, I have a compression tester in the garage, rented from O'Reilly. I haven't used it yet, but I did hold my thumb over cylinder #1 and it blew my thumb right off. So there's compression in that cylinder.

An aside: When testing spark on plug #1, I had plug #2 and #3 left in the head but not connected. I had plug #1 out and laying against the head. When I turned the engine over, it cranked real strangely. Kind of a kata-thunk, kata-thunk. I imagine that's because I had full compression in cylinder 2 and 3 but not #1. Is this bad to do? Once I took plug 2 and 3 fully out, it cranks perfectly. Just wondering.
 
Mid-evening update:

I have no spark on plug #1. I tested plug #2 and #3 and both have spark. I swapped known working plug to #1 and no spark. Working now to diagnose the issue. I'm going back to the e-box as the culprit since that's what I've done the work on most recently.

Also, I have a compression tester in the garage, rented from O'Reilly. I haven't used it yet, but I did hold my thumb over cylinder #1 and it blew my thumb right off. So there's compression in that cylinder.

An aside: When testing spark on plug #1, I had plug #2 and #3 left in the head but not connected. I had plug #1 out and laying against the head. When I turned the engine over, it cranked real strangely. Kind of a kata-thunk, kata-thunk. I imagine that's because I had full compression in cylinder 2 and 3 but not #1. Is this bad to do? Once I took plug 2 and 3 fully out, it cranks perfectly. Just wondering.

Correct, doesn't particularly hurt anything, but no real reason to have the other plugs in when spinning, you could have left them out. Hopefully it's just an ignition problem. Remember this, you bought a cheap used box, it may already be going bad, so don't rule out that possibility.
 
While I had all the plugs out I ran the compression tests.

Test conditions: Cold engine, all plugs out, WOT, compression tester fitting adapter used and screwed in completely.

Note that the service manual gives 83 - 135 PSI as the usable range, and directs that the engine be thoroughly warmed up for the test.

Cylinder 1:
20141030_233357.jpg

Cylinder 2:
20141030_233614.jpg

Cylinder 3:
20141030_233858.jpg

I believe these to be reasonable compressions for a cold engine, and I am pleased that I get similar values on each.
 
The last significant thing I did before my on-water test was re-open the e-box, open up all the Molex connectors, put some dielectric grease them, put grease on the e-box gasket, then bolt it back down. My goal was to protect the e-box and connections against saltwater intrusion.

So I'm going to open up the e-box and check the connects again. I may have created this issue.
 
I'm just amazed you were able to get that fast with one cylinder not hitting...Just doesn't make sense to me..but I can't see how it'd be that clean if it were hitting...
 
While I had all the plugs out I ran the compression tests.

Test conditions: Cold engine, all plugs out, WOT, compression tester fitting adapter used and screwed in completely.

Note that the service manual gives 83 - 135 PSI as the usable range, and directs that the engine be thoroughly warmed up for the test.

Cylinder 1:
View attachment 36498

Cylinder 2:
View attachment 36499

Cylinder 3:
View attachment 36500

I believe these to be reasonable compressions for a cold engine, and I am pleased that I get similar values on each.

Compressions are all fine. Does that engine have a cylinder head?
 
The last significant thing I did before my on-water test was re-open the e-box, open up all the Molex connectors, put some dielectric grease them, put grease on the e-box gasket, then bolt it back down. My goal was to protect the e-box and connections against saltwater intrusion.

So I'm going to open up the e-box and check the connects again. I may have created this issue.

Good thinking. That's the reward for fixing what's not broke.:rofl:
 
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