Please explain propeller rpm vs. altitude vs. ground speed?

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Brad
I did my first short (20min) flight at 10,500 in the Skylane on Saturday. I was mainly interested in the 182 climb performance and cruise speed at that altitude. It was a nice spring day with ground temperature of about +60F.

For the climb at full power and Vy (90mph IAS) I was seeing about 500-600fm as I neared 10,500msl.
I was about 500lbs below MTOW where the POH indicates 655fpm @ 83mph so in general I was pretty close to the numbers, maybe climbing a bit more shallow. I am glad I did this. Our airport is at 1000msl and thus climbs to 3500, 4500, 5500 are a lot faster than this altitude stuff!

I didn't have much time at cruise but once it leveled out my GPS based ground speed just seemed slow. I am guessing it was winds aloft. I didn't have winds aloft at the time and didn't have time left to turn and try other directions. Or maybe it should have been slower???

Leading to my question:

I get why take off runs and landing rolls use more distance at altitude.
I get why the climb is more anemic as you go up in altitude.

But one thing that is not clear to me is when in cruise at higher altitudes, for the same prop RPM (eg 2450) wouldn't the actual over the ground speed then be lower and lower as you go up?
 
What was your TAS?

Ground speed is going to be more affected by winds than power loss in normally aspirated aircraft at the altitudes most of us fly.
 
It's going to increase the pitch as you go up to keep the rpm's steady as the air thins, so you're moving roughly the same amount of air....
 
But one thing that is not clear to me is when in cruise at higher altitudes, for the same prop RPM (eg 2450) wouldn't the actual over the ground speed then be lower and lower as you go up?

No, but rather than get into a bunch of theory it may be easier to answer your question by asking why do you think your ground speed should be slower as you increase altitude?
 
No, but rather than get into a bunch of theory it may be easier to answer your question by asking why do you think your ground speed should be slower as you increase altitude?
Uh like...I don't know exactly why and would be comfortable with theory from someone with a better understanding :)
 
What was your TAS?

Ground speed is going to be more affected by winds than power loss in normally aspirated aircraft at the altitudes most of us fly.
I didn't compute TAS but I did also note IAS was lower, but expected that due to lower air density up there.

I wish I would have worded my question better. I wanted to understand the effects sans winds. Obviously real world winds aloft will play a big deal.
 
It's a curve. Down low, more power but more parasite drag. Go up higher and you lose power (but not really, because you throttle back down low to maintain 75% power and as you climb you can gain some of the reduced throttle back) - but parasite drag goes down, and your TAS will increase. For each aircraft there's a certain sweet altitude. Keep going higher and the power output drops off faster than the parasite drag does. So, the higher you go from 0 MSL the faster your TAS will be, and the slower it will be, depending on aircraft and altitude.
 
It's going to increase the pitch as you go up to keep the rpm's steady as the air thins, so you're moving roughly the same amount of air....
I wanted to address the constant speed prop in my question but I just wasn't sure. Obviously the air is thinner up there. So to keep spinning at the same rpm the blade could pitch a bit to not over speed past the target rpm. That would mean a different angle of attack and ideally more thrust. But in my example that is also prop full forward. So I wasn't sure if the prop governor even allowed the blades to change pitch when full forward - in effect being a fixed pitch prop. So is this really the answer? If so, then fixed pitch props at these altitudes would definitely see decreased over the ground speeds at increasing altitudes?
 
I wanted to address the constant speed prop in my question but I just wasn't sure. Obviously the air is thinner up there. So to keep spinning at the same rpm the blade could pitch a bit to not over speed past the target rpm. That would mean a different angle of attack and ideally more thrust. But in my example that is also prop full forward. So I wasn't sure if the prop governor even allowed the blades to change pitch when full forward - in effect being a fixed pitch prop. So is this really the answer? If so, then fixed pitch props at these altitudes would definitely see decreased over the ground speeds at increasing altitudes?
In your example you said 2450, which isn't full forward in my mooney, but maybe it is in a 182?
 
I wanted to address the constant speed prop in my question but I just wasn't sure. Obviously the air is thinner up there. So to keep spinning at the same rpm the blade could pitch a bit to not over speed past the target rpm. That would mean a different angle of attack and ideally more thrust. But in my example that is also prop full forward. So I wasn't sure if the prop governor even allowed the blades to change pitch when full forward - in effect being a fixed pitch prop. So is this really the answer? If so, then fixed pitch props at these altitudes would definitely see decreased over the ground speeds at increasing altitudes?

No, it's a constant speed propeller so even if you select high RPM the propeller governor is still doing it's thing adjusting the pitch. If you select full RPM then the propeller governor will do what it can to maintain the maximum RPM that it is set to, i.e. red line.

In simple terms (which is all I'm really qualified to discuss) it's about air density. The higher you are the thinner the air, so the faster your aircraft will move through the air to achieve the same IAS and drag. Make sense?

(had to edit my response, misread your question)...
 
I wanted to address the constant speed prop in my question but I just wasn't sure. Obviously the air is thinner up there. So to keep spinning at the same rpm the blade could pitch a bit to not over speed past the target rpm. That would mean a different angle of attack and ideally more thrust. But in my example that is also prop full forward. So I wasn't sure if the prop governor even allowed the blades to change pitch when full forward - in effect being a fixed pitch prop. So is this really the answer? If so, then fixed pitch props at these altitudes would definitely see decreased over the ground speeds at increasing altitudes?

"Full forward" is still a governed RPM set by your mechanic. If you push the throttle up and the prop hits the selected redline and doesn't stop BELOW it, you're still in the governing range of the prop pitch for overspeed. It's still adjusting pitch to maintain a speed.

(Technically it's adjusting a pitch to maintain a balance between counterweights being flung outward from the center of a shaft, that are connected to a needle valve that opens or closes depending on how fast they're turning and how much "centrifugal force" is being exerted on them versus a spring. The needle valve either allows or restricts oil flow to to prop hub to "push" the prop blades to a new angle as it constantly is opened and closed. When the weights being flung outward from the shaft and the spring balance, the needle valve essentially stops moving, but it's really a constantly adjusting system.)

If "full forward" were selected and the needle valve was stuck closed, you would go way above the "full forward" selected "redline" RPM at sea-level with the engine making full horsepower... e.g. an "overspeed". Technically it's something you should watch for on takeoff.

Or if you experience a complete loss of engine oil pressure in a single, extreme low pitch all the way to the mechanical stops. (Twins typically go the other direction... feather/extreme high pitch with loss of oil pressure.) It'll go above the max RPM and the blades will end up as flat as the mechanical stops will allow them to be... well, until the engine grenades from lack of oil anyway... :)

Sooooo anyway... you're still able to "make redline" at 10,500' so you're not at the mechanical stops yet, and the prop governor is still doing its thing... moving the prop blades based upon RPM of the flyweights and the spring opening and closing the needle valve for oil pressure to the prop hub.
 
No, it's a constant speed propeller so even if you select high RPM the propeller governor is still doing it's thing adjusting the pitch. If you select full RPM then the propeller governor will do what it can to maintain the maximum RPM that it is set to, i.e. red line.

In simple terms (which is all I'm really qualified to discuss) it's about air density. The higher you are the thinner the air, so the faster your aircraft will move through the air to achieve the same IAS and drag. Make sense?

(had to edit my response, misread your question)...
Okay as you and @EdFred have illustrated to me, the parasitic drag plays a role here...a much bigger role than I was aware of.

For straight and level cruise flight: Down low, the air is more dense and the parasitic drag is a factor. But that same dense air allows the prop more thrust...at a specified rpm. Now, move up 10,000ft and the parasitic drag force has lessened but so has the prop thrust...at the same specified rpm. They don't necessarily cancel out but in a cool aviation sort of way they are somewhat close...for awhile. Actually, from my POH it looks like the prop thrust must be falling off faster than the drag because TAS numbers are declining as you go higher. And finally, as you continue even higher eventually there will be no parasitic drag but also no thrust :(

Maybe the other things confusing me and throwing off @Salty is that I stated 2450rpm and full forward together. Right now I do not recall the rpm at full forward. I feel like is just a bit above that like 2600rpm. I wanted to use 2450rpm in my example as that is a valid, near red line rpm that could be used at both altitudes and all MP settings.

So then in the thinner air for the same prop rpm setting the blades must have more pitch to provide enough resistance to govern down to the desired rpm?
 
"Full forward" is still a governed RPM set by your mechanic. If you push the throttle up and the prop hits the selected redline and doesn't stop BELOW it, you're still in the governing range of the prop pitch for overspeed. It's still adjusting pitch to maintain a speed.

(Technically it's adjusting a pitch to maintain a balance between counterweights being flung outward from the center of a shaft, that are connected to a needle valve that opens or closes depending on how fast they're turning and how much "centrifugal force" is being exerted on them versus a spring. The needle valve either allows or restricts oil flow to to prop hub to "push" the prop blades to a new angle as it constantly is opened and closed. When the weights being flung outward from the shaft and the spring balance, the needle valve essentially stops moving, but it's really a constantly adjusting system.)

If "full forward" were selected and the needle valve was stuck closed, you would go way above the "full forward" selected "redline" RPM at sea-level with the engine making full horsepower... e.g. an "overspeed". Technically it's something you should watch for on takeoff.

Or if you experience a complete loss of engine oil pressure in a single, extreme low pitch all the way to the mechanical stops. (Twins typically go the other direction... feather/extreme high pitch with loss of oil pressure.) It'll go above the max RPM and the blades will end up as flat as the mechanical stops will allow them to be... well, until the engine grenades from lack of oil anyway... :)

Sooooo anyway... you're still able to "make redline" at 10,500' so you're not at the mechanical stops yet, and the prop governor is still doing its thing... moving the prop blades based upon RPM of the flyweights and the spring opening and closing the needle valve for oil pressure to the prop hub.
Thanks Nate!
I never realized that when the prop was full forward that it was still governed. I thought full forward meant the blade pitch would be as shallow as possible...no matter what...including engine oil loss or low engine rpm. So I've learned a couple good things in this thread.

So all planes must have a sweet spot (altitude) where the parasitic drag fall-off and prop thrust falloff crisscross. For the good old 182 is that number like around 8000msl or something much higher...I have no clue? I'd be pretty dumb to fly around at 12,500 sucking O2 on a nice summer day if 8500 got me there faster on similar fuel :)

ps. I fixed my propellor/propeller typo in the thread title...duh!
 
So all planes must have a sweet spot (altitude) where the parasitic drag fall-off and prop thrust falloff crisscross. For the good old 182 is that number like around 8000msl or something much higher...I have no clue? I'd be pretty dumb to fly around at 12,500 sucking O2 on a nice summer day if 8500 got me there faster on similar fuel :)

They do but you also have to factor in time to climb and at what speed, and also what speed you’re willing to accept coming back down. (Firewalled and yellow arc? Bumping redline on the ASI...)

And those annoying drag curves affect all of those speeds too. :)

Very very generally the normally aspirated Skylane sweet spot is 8000-10000. Very generally. But winds aloft will have a MUCH larger effect on the overall trip time than the wing and prop efficiency numbers. Generally. Engine HP loss, aircraft drag, temperature, ALL of it affects the numbers in some little or big way.

If you’re slogging into even a mild headwind at 8000, it’s much better to be at some altitude where it doesn’t exist or is weaker. If you can find a tailwind you’ve hit the jackpot.

And then you’ll still land within a few minutes of your flight plan — usually — unless you’re stretching into the upper half of the fuel range of the aircraft.

Did we mention even weight factors in? And CG? ;) You can probably get one more knot out of a Skylane getting the CG more aft than it usually is single-pilot. :) :) :) As you can see, one knot probably won’t help much into a 10 knot headwind. :) :) :)
 
I did my first short (20min) flight at 10,500 in the Skylane on Saturday. I was mainly interested in the 182 climb performance and cruise speed at that altitude. It was a nice spring day with ground temperature of about +60F.

For the climb at full power and Vy (90mph IAS) I was seeing about 500-600fm as I neared 10,500msl.
I was about 500lbs below MTOW where the POH indicates 655fpm @ 83mph so in general I was pretty close to the numbers, maybe climbing a bit more shallow. I am glad I did this. Our airport is at 1000msl and thus climbs to 3500, 4500, 5500 are a lot faster than this altitude stuff!

I didn't have much time at cruise but once it leveled out my GPS based ground speed just seemed slow. I am guessing it was winds aloft. I didn't have winds aloft at the time and didn't have time left to turn and try other directions. Or maybe it should have been slower???

Leading to my question:

I get why take off runs and landing rolls use more distance at altitude.
I get why the climb is more anemic as you go up in altitude.

But one thing that is not clear to me is when in cruise at higher altitudes, for the same prop RPM (eg 2450) wouldn't the actual over the ground speed then be lower and lower as you go up?

It seems to me that you're concentrating an awful lot on prop RPM, when that is but one component of power. Manifold Pressure is even more important - And if you don't truly understand what MP is (and I wouldn't blame you, since the FAA materials on this absolutely suck), go directly to this article and read it (do not pass go, do not collect $200 unless you blow it at the FBO): Manifold Pressure Sucks!

When operating rich of peak EGT, which you probably are in the carbureted Skylane, power is limited by the amount of airflow into the engine. 100% power would be 29.92" of manifold pressure (sea level, standard day) and 2600 RPM. At 10,500 MSL, if you're at full throttle and 2450 RPM, you should be getting maybe 19" MP, so (19/30)*(2450/2600) = approximately 60% power.

Now, if you operate at 19" MP and 2450 RPM at 3000 feet, you'll also be developing roughly 60% power, but you won't be at full throttle if you're at 19" MP at that altitude. But, if the power setting was truly 60% at each of those altitudes (3,000 and 10,500), you could expect to have:
  • A faster True airspeed at 10,500, since you have roughly the same thrust (thanks to the constant speed prop and the same power setting), but lower drag thanks to the thinner air.
  • A similar indicated airspeed. Thrust and drag will always seek an equilibrium, so with the thrust being roughly equal, the amount of air hitting the plane (and the pitot tube) will also be roughly equal.
  • A higher prop pitch: In the thinner air, with the same amount of power, there would be less resistance at the same pitch. The governor will thus have increased the pitch of your prop blades to compensate.
Now, we don't normally operate at 19" MP down low - For example, I usually run 24" MP and 2300 RPM in my plane. Looking at the various altitudes:
  • Below 6,000 feet, the throttle will be farther out the lower I am because of the denser air.
  • At 6,000 feet, I'll be at full throttle to get my 24" MP.
  • Above 6,000 feet, I'll still be at full throttle, but MP will decrease with altitude.
For straight and level cruise flight: Down low, the air is more dense and the parasitic drag is a factor. But that same dense air allows the prop more thrust...at a specified rpm. Now, move up 10,000ft and the parasitic drag force has lessened but so has the prop thrust...at the same specified rpm.

I would dispute that. The air is thicker down low, so the prop develops the *same* thrust using a *lower* pitch, assuming the engine is developing the same amount of power. It's the same as your wing: If you keep the same true airspeed (prop RPM), you'll need a higher angle of attack (pitch) to maintain the same amount of lift at a higher altitude because the air is thinner.

As you go higher, the prop will increase pitch to maintain the same RPM.

So then in the thinner air for the same prop rpm setting the blades must have more pitch to provide enough resistance to govern down to the desired rpm?

Correct.

Again, though, I feel like you're focusing really heavily on the prop here, when manifold pressure contributes at least as much to the power output as RPM does.

________
If you want to know more, read on - Otherwise, go absorb what I said above first. This is just fluff below:

You may have noticed I emphasized "roughly" the same power setting above. That's because, at the exact same MP, you'll get slightly *more* power up high than you will down low. Why? Pumping losses. This will make lots more sense once you read that article linked above, but using that 19" MP as an example, up high you'll have the throttle wide open, while down low you'll need to close it to keep the MP down at 19". When you close the throttle, you're restricting the airflow past it and "sucking" the air past the throttle, essentially turning your engine into somewhat of a vacuum pump, using the intake strokes of the cylinders to suck that air past the throttle to reduce the ambient pressure (29.92 on a standard day, or whatever the altimeter setting is) down to the lower (19") pressure in the intake manifold.

This is part of why, if you see two power settings for the same % power, the one with the higher manifold pressure and lower RPM is the more efficient one. For example, at 9,000 feet I could develop 65.77% power at full throttle (21.39" MP on a standard day, in theory) and 2300 RPM, *or* I could theoretically develop the same amount of power (same airflow) at 19.68" MP and 2500 RPM. However, I'll actually get more power at full throttle and 2300 RPM for a few reasons:
  1. I won't have the pumping losses from sucking air past the throttle. OK, again, I say "in theory" because even a wide-open throttle still has the plates there and parallel to the airflow so there's a small restriction there still. I should point out that there are also still pumping losses from pulling air through the intake air filter as well, generally about a 1" decrease in MP from that alone. These are the reason why, even at full throttle and sea level, you will not see your MP as high as it is when the engine isn't turning.
  2. Less friction inside the engine. Piston rings on cylinder walls, connecting rods rotating at both ends, crankshaft riding in its bearings - All of these will be happening slower and thus we'll be losing less energy to friction.
  3. Less parasitic drag on the prop, since it's spinning at a lower RPM. Big props can be especially susceptible to this, since prop efficiency drops dramatically above a tip speed of 0.85 mach. I should say, at that point they become more efficient at generating noise than thrust. ;)
Anyway... Have fun learning and flying! :)
 
It seems to me that you're concentrating an awful lot on prop RPM, when that is but one component of power. Manifold Pressure is even more important - And if you don't truly understand what MP is (and I wouldn't blame you, since the FAA materials on this absolutely suck), go directly to this article and read it (do not pass go, do not collect $200 unless you blow it at the FBO): Manifold Pressure Sucks!

When operating rich of peak EGT, which you probably are in the carbureted Skylane, power is limited by the amount of airflow into the engine. 100% power would be 29.92" of manifold pressure (sea level, standard day) and 2600 RPM. At 10,500 MSL, if you're at full throttle and 2450 RPM, you should be getting maybe 19" MP, so (19/30)*(2450/2600) = approximately 60% power.

Now, if you operate at 19" MP and 2450 RPM at 3000 feet, you'll also be developing roughly 60% power, but you won't be at full throttle if you're at 19" MP at that altitude. But, if the power setting was truly 60% at each of those altitudes (3,000 and 10,500), you could expect to have:
  • A faster True airspeed at 10,500, since you have roughly the same thrust (thanks to the constant speed prop and the same power setting), but lower drag thanks to the thinner air.
  • A similar indicated airspeed. Thrust and drag will always seek an equilibrium, so with the thrust being roughly equal, the amount of air hitting the plane (and the pitot tube) will also be roughly equal.
  • A higher prop pitch: In the thinner air, with the same amount of power, there would be less resistance at the same pitch. The governor will thus have increased the pitch of your prop blades to compensate.
Now, we don't normally operate at 19" MP down low - For example, I usually run 24" MP and 2300 RPM in my plane. Looking at the various altitudes:
  • Below 6,000 feet, the throttle will be farther out the lower I am because of the denser air.
  • At 6,000 feet, I'll be at full throttle to get my 24" MP.
  • Above 6,000 feet, I'll still be at full throttle, but MP will decrease with altitude.


I would dispute that. The air is thicker down low, so the prop develops the *same* thrust using a *lower* pitch, assuming the engine is developing the same amount of power. It's the same as your wing: If you keep the same true airspeed (prop RPM), you'll need a higher angle of attack (pitch) to maintain the same amount of lift at a higher altitude because the air is thinner.

As you go higher, the prop will increase pitch to maintain the same RPM.



Correct.

Again, though, I feel like you're focusing really heavily on the prop here, when manifold pressure contributes at least as much to the power output as RPM does.

________
If you want to know more, read on - Otherwise, go absorb what I said above first. This is just fluff below:

You may have noticed I emphasized "roughly" the same power setting above. That's because, at the exact same MP, you'll get slightly *more* power up high than you will down low. Why? Pumping losses. This will make lots more sense once you read that article linked above, but using that 19" MP as an example, up high you'll have the throttle wide open, while down low you'll need to close it to keep the MP down at 19". When you close the throttle, you're restricting the airflow past it and "sucking" the air past the throttle, essentially turning your engine into somewhat of a vacuum pump, using the intake strokes of the cylinders to suck that air past the throttle to reduce the ambient pressure (29.92 on a standard day, or whatever the altimeter setting is) down to the lower (19") pressure in the intake manifold.

This is part of why, if you see two power settings for the same % power, the one with the higher manifold pressure and lower RPM is the more efficient one. For example, at 9,000 feet I could develop 65.77% power at full throttle (21.39" MP on a standard day, in theory) and 2300 RPM, *or* I could theoretically develop the same amount of power (same airflow) at 19.68" MP and 2500 RPM. However, I'll actually get more power at full throttle and 2300 RPM for a few reasons:
  1. I won't have the pumping losses from sucking air past the throttle. OK, again, I say "in theory" because even a wide-open throttle still has the plates there and parallel to the airflow so there's a small restriction there still. I should point out that there are also still pumping losses from pulling air through the intake air filter as well, generally about a 1" decrease in MP from that alone. These are the reason why, even at full throttle and sea level, you will not see your MP as high as it is when the engine isn't turning.
  2. Less friction inside the engine. Piston rings on cylinder walls, connecting rods rotating at both ends, crankshaft riding in its bearings - All of these will be happening slower and thus we'll be losing less energy to friction.
  3. Less parasitic drag on the prop, since it's spinning at a lower RPM. Big props can be especially susceptible to this, since prop efficiency drops dramatically above a tip speed of 0.85 mach. I should say, at that point they become more efficient at generating noise than thrust. ;)
Anyway... Have fun learning and flying! :)
Awesome post!!! Thank you for taking the time to explain in way more detail than I was ever aware of. And yes, I was fixated on prop rpm as I thought the MP was just a means to and end...allow the prop to spin at least fast enough to reach the desired rpm with governor handling the rest.

Thanks for including the link as well. I have some reading and understanding to do now. Like homework :)
 
Very very generally the normally aspirated Skylane sweet spot is 8000-10000. Very generally.

"Generally" that's true of any normally aspirated airplane. That's where you're running full throttle to get your 65% (assuming a slightly-below-full RPM) and so you are developing normal cruise power, but you're at the highest (lowest-drag) altitudes where you can do so.

But winds aloft will have a MUCH larger effect on the overall trip time than the wing and prop efficiency numbers. Generally. Engine HP loss, aircraft drag, temperature, ALL of it affects the numbers in some little or big way.

Yup.

I've been enjoying the Performance version of ForeFlight. I put in a "by altitude" profile where I adjusted the speeds, fuel burns, climb/descent rates and such according to how I operate my airplane and the performance I normally see out of it, so it is very accurate at calculating speed and fuel burn for an entire flight profile. Then, it's automatically combining those numbers with the winds for climb, cruise, and descent and nailing a VERY accurate number for time elapsed and fuel burned for various altitudes. It's quite interesting to see the results for a particular flight.

For example, let's say I'm flying out to Wings for the FlyBQ, but it's tomorrow instead of a few weeks away. For a 9 AM departure along the northern, lakeshore-crossing route (KUES FAH HIC YQO ERI V170 MXE14 BUNTS KLOM), the fastest altitude is 11,000 feet at 3:29, while the lowest fuel burn is 17,000 feet at 40.2 gallons. However, 17,000 feet would take 9 minutes longer and only save 2.6 gallons of fuel compared to 11,000 feet, and I'd have to use a lot more oxygen which would eat into the fuel savings. But, an even better option might be 13,000 feet. That would only take two minutes longer, it'd save me half the fuel (1.3 gallons) that 17,000 would, and give me a better margin for the lake crossings. Fun stuff!

Unfortunately, there's no way to plug in a full vertical profile yet - The other option would be along the Chicago lakeshore, wherein I'd take off and climb to 5500, then descend as necessary down to 2000-2500 to get under the Bravo, then climb again to my final cruise altitude. For that case, since the early portion of the flight is almost at a fixed altitude (I'm probably not going to slog along at 3500 feet unless there's a REALLY strong wind out of the south that favors it over 5500). It looks like 13,000 is overall pretty favorable for the eastern portion of the trip there as well, at 3:05 and 37.9 gallons (added to the roughly 0:41 and 10.9 gallons going down the lakeshore).

Now, if I won the lottery I'd probably bring my King Air, where the fastest altitude is FL250 (2:02 and 1,589 lbs). With the turbines, higher is always more efficient unless you're on a short leg, but FL270 would take only one minute longer and save 59 lbs of fuel (~9 gallons). FL290 would take an additional minute and save an additional 42 lbs of fuel, FL310 would take two additional minutes and save an additional 45lbs. Fun stuff.

[/NATEMODE] ;)
 
Awesome post!!! Thank you for taking the time to explain in way more detail than I was ever aware of. And yes, I was fixated on prop rpm as I thought the MP was just a means to and end...allow the prop to spin at least fast enough to reach the desired rpm with governor handling the rest.

You're welcome!

Next time you go, in level flight at a moderately low altitude (4-5000 maybe), back off the throttle to maybe 15", and you should still be able to maintain level flight and your selected RPM, but you'll be going pretty slow. Push it forward to full throttle and you'll accelerate quite a bit... All at the same RPM. Then, after you land, think about what the prop governor was doing to maintain the same RPM. :)

Thanks for including the link as well. I have some reading and understanding to do now. Like homework :)

If homework was always this fun, I'd have done much better in school. :rofl:

Understanding manifold pressure and constant speed props in general is one of the areas where the FAA's learning materials are just spectacularly bad. "Prop control controls RPM, throttle controls manifold pressure." Well great, WTF does that really mean? What is manifold pressure? Why do I care? Should I just be looking into motorcycling as a hobby instead? Those are the things I was thinking after I first read the FAA's crap about constant speed props during my private training. Then, I read Manifold Pressure Sucks and it all made sense. Deakin just does a great job of explaining and illustrating the concepts. His other articles are well worth reading too, there's a companion to Manifold Pressure Sucks called Those Marvelous Props that should probably be your next homework assignment. ;)
 
10.5 in a 182?

Shy of a DZ forget that noise
 
"
[/NATEMODE] ;)

I was trying to avoid that in my response. Hahaha. Didn’t have time earlier.

Plus like you said, out of the options given for your flight, you saved a gallon and a half of gas. :)

At least you had ForeFlight do all that calculating for you. We both remember when you’d sit down and do that with a pencil and paper and then realize you spent four hours calculating to save $8. :)

Thus, the “generally” answer for the 182, which as you pointed out, is “generally” the answer for most non-turbo normalized piston singles.

And you know this one too, that folks just starting to play with this stuff haven’t had the “joy” of yet.

The winter day westbound where the winds aloft are 40 knots directly on the nose and nothing changes at any altitude other than way down low and that’s so bumpy you can’t stand it.

Oh goodie. This wasn’t forecast. Groundspeed is less than 90 knots. We’ll be there sometime next week.

Guess I’d better start looking for a fuel stop. :)

And the other bummer reality of it all...

Usually if you just waited out the weather and you’re behind the bad stuff going somewhere west to east, the wind is out ahead of the storm front and the jet stream where the weather is good is now way north not helping you at all.

Coming home you’re either flying into the full force gale WAY out ahead of an approaching storm or the low is somewhere just behind your destination and you’re dealing with a “cross” wind.

Coriolis is a *****. :)

It’s so freakin rare to get a solid tailwind unless a thunderstorm line is right on your butt chasing you east, it’s not even funny. Hahaha.

Always headwinds.

Once in a great while you’ll get the drop of the jet stream into the mid-latitudes without moisture and therefore without total **** weather out in front of it, and can ride the wave eastbound.

However you slice it tailwinds are rare and enjoyed immensely when you can get them. :)
 
10.5 in a 182?

Shy of a DZ forget that noise

I take off at 6000’ man. 9500 eastbound is a lovely VFR cruising altitude. :)

And if you dropped the meatbombs from 9500 around here they’d be mad. LOL.

(I think our local DZ tosses them out the door at 12,500 just to avoid O2 issues. I’ve heard the turbines dumping them out higher.)
 
I never really worried with what the prop is doing up there...high pitch vs. low pitch....it just does it's job.
 
I must be special. I don’t see how they are related. I really don’t understand the question.
After I did my first short flight at 10,500msl I saw for the first time how anemic the climb was compared to down around 2000msl. I also noticed my GPS ground speed seemed rather low. I am sure it was due to winds aloft (I didn't have the data). But this also made me wonder...is the air up there getting thin enough that the plane (and specifically the prop) will not have enough thrust to fly at the same speeds down low in denser air.

My first blunder was that I pretty much forgot about parasitic drag being reduced in the less dense air...which is in my favor at higher altitudes. And then I did not realize that the prop, even at those altitudes was still controlling pitch and providing adequate/similar thrust. Then throw in that I thought as you neared full rpm (full forward) the blade pitch would be forced to shallowest stop thereby not giving a higher angle of attack. When it is actually still governed and probably a lot more pitch that I would have imagined, up in thinner air.

I really, really appreciate these responses.

I just realized I am pretty much the poster boy for @flyingcheesehead's statement:

Understanding manifold pressure and constant speed props in general is one of the areas where the FAA's learning materials are just spectacularly bad. "Prop control controls RPM, throttle controls manifold pressure."

Regarding flying at 10.5msl in the 182. This flatlander has a trip planned to Rapid City in a few weeks. My normal 4500/5500 cruise levels won't be an option. I'll probably want to stay around 6500 for most of the way out since winds are mostly out of the west. On the way back though, I could easily see climbing to 9500msl to catch a tailwind. So I wanted to understand this higher (or should I say medium) altitude flying a bit more.
 
Okay as you and @EdFred have illustrated to me, the parasitic drag plays a role here...a much bigger role than I was aware of.

You have been given much more and better detailed explanations above and it sounds like you get the concept. But I want to make sure you're not taking away a false impression from my post regarding drag. Again, in simple terms, drag is drag regardless of your altitude. From your aircraft's perspective in cruise flight at any given IAS it will "see" the same drag at 10,500 MSL that it sees at 2,500 MSL. But at 10,500 MSL it will be traveling through the air faster to see that same drag. Of course the general caveats of Density Altitude apply (temperature, pressure and humidity).
 
With fairly similar power settings, I generally indicate about the same airspeed at most altitudes, 140-145 mph. But at 3000 msl, this is 145 + 6% = 154 mph; but at 9500 msl, this becomes 145 + 19% = 173 mph. So I go faster as I go higher, up to a limit (I haven't investigated enough to determine just where the plane loses speed, as climb falls off too much). Obviously I have higher MP down low, so I compensate with higher RPM up high (in these examples, 23"/2300 and ~20"/2500, whatever MP I can get).

Do note that winds are usually stronger as you go higher. I went a little over 1300 nm to the west at an average of 127 knots groundspeed, and came home a week later at 151 knots. My level cruise groundspeed envelope has reached as high as 186 knots and as low as a painful (but brief!) 68 knots. Check winds aloft, plan accordingly and verify!
 
@Sinistar you aren’t the first person to be surprised at all the factors that affect performance as you go up higher.

For fun, apply what you’ve seen now at 10,500’ as pretty poor performance compared to what you’re used to, to flying OVER the Rockies.

You still need to climb 4000’ more feet. :)
 
In spite of it being a "constant speed" prop, when you lean the engine, you get an rpm drop. They put a item called a "pilots valve" so the prop rpm goes down, SLIGHTLY, then tries to go back up to where it was. This is so you can lean the engine to "peak RPM".
 
In spite of it being a "constant speed" prop, when you lean the engine, you get an rpm drop. They put a item called a "pilots valve" so the prop rpm goes down, SLIGHTLY, then tries to go back up to where it was. This is so you can lean the engine to "peak RPM".

??????
 
Its "peak RPM" for that prop knob setting.

What you do is this. You climb up, now you level out. You use your throttle to select manifold pressure. You use your prop knob to select your rpm. Now you pull the mixture out and watch the tachometer. You will see a slight rpm drop when it goes "too lean". Then you richen slightly. You are now running as lean as possible, which is ok if you are at 65% power or below.
 
Its "peak RPM" for that prop knob setting.

What you do is this. You climb up, now you level out. You use your throttle to select manifold pressure. You use your prop knob to select your rpm. Now you pull the mixture out and watch the tachometer. You will see a slight rpm drop when it goes "too lean". Then you richen slightly. You are now running as lean as possible, which is ok if you are at 65% power or below.

You’ve been flying too much up here. LOL. You won’t see that RPM drop at lower altitudes. You’re just falling out of the governing range when you leaned it heavily.

Best watch the EGT gauge down lower. You leaned it right through peak and so far into the other side it was below the power level needed to spin a very flat prop.

That prop was as flat as it could get. :)

Do that at 3000 MSL and if you get it out of the governing range you’re so lean you almost killed it. Not that it’s any big deal, barring passing through the “red box” on the way there.

Which is why folks go for the “big pull” for LOP ops... to minimize the time when passing through it.
 
It's NOT because the prop is full flat. A pilot can prove that by having the prop knob out a bit when leaning.

What I described is what the propeller does. The valve that makes that happen is called the "pilot valve". If that didn't happen, we wouldnt be able to lean via rpm drop. And pilots can lean to rpm drop, thanks to the "pilot valve". Why do you think they call it the pilot valve?

Just go out and do a runup with the prop knob out a bit and lean while watching the tach. When you get to lean, the rpms will drop a bit. Then you richen. I've done it thousands of times.

Schematic of pilot valve is here:
http://www.thaitechnics.com/propeller/prop_control.html
 
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It's NOT because the prop is full flat. A pilot can prove that by having the prop knob out a bit when leaning.

What I described is what the propeller does. The valve that makes that happen is called the "pilot valve". If that didn't happen, we wouldnt be able to lean via rpm drop. And pilots can lean to rpm drop, thanks to the "pilot valve". Why do you think they call it the pilot valve?

Just go out and do a runup with the prop knob out a bit and lean while watching the tach. When you get to lean, the rpms will drop a bit. Then you richen. I've done it thousands of times.

Schematic of pilot valve is here:
http://www.thaitechnics.com/propeller/prop_control.html

Fair enough. Will check it out.
 
It's NOT because the prop is full flat. A pilot can prove that by having the prop knob out a bit when leaning.

What I described is what the propeller does. The valve that makes that happen is called the "pilot valve". If that didn't happen, we wouldnt be able to lean via rpm drop. And pilots can lean to rpm drop, thanks to the "pilot valve". Why do you think they call it the pilot valve?

Just go out and do a runup with the prop knob out a bit and lean while watching the tach. When you get to lean, the rpms will drop a bit. Then you richen. I've done it thousands of times.

Schematic of pilot valve is here:
http://www.thaitechnics.com/propeller/prop_control.html
Ummmm, lots of things have ‘pilot’ valves. Take a course in practical hydraulic systems to learn about pilot systems. It’s got nothing to do with the lump behind the yoke.
 
Ummmm, lots of things have ‘pilot’ valves. Take a course in practical hydraulic systems to learn about pilot systems. It’s got nothing to do with the lump behind the yoke.

I was going to leave that part alone, but yeah.... pilot valve has a specific meaning.

I only recently learned that there’s some crazy schematic diagramming language for hydraulic systems, though. That makes sense, but never had to design or “do” hydraulic any further than replacing busted lines on gear. ;)

Or as AvE says, hydraulics are the LEGO of Industry...
 
I was going to leave that part alone, but yeah.... pilot valve has a specific meaning.

I only recently learned that there’s some crazy schematic diagramming language for hydraulic systems, though. That makes sense, but never had to design or “do” hydraulic any further than replacing busted lines on gear. ;)

Or as AvE says, hydraulics are the LEGO of Industry...
Ever see/do Ladder programming? My head about came from together first time I had to work with those legacy based systems...
 
Ever see/do Ladder programming? My head about came from together first time I had to work with those legacy based systems...

Hahahahaha the old control systems stuff? Yeah, saw it and backed away slowly keeping a weapon in my hand. :)

Dad did a bunch with it. Long before he was in Sales, he did a stint (poor guy) as a Honeywell tech after leaving the Navy. All sorts of control systems and HVAC and other nastiness.

Pretty sure it was his shirt stint at Honeywell and seeing what they charged customers for parts, that got him thinking that being at the other end of the electronics component food chain would suit him better. Both figuratively and literally.

He probably sold millions of components to Honeywell and many others. But that was in the heyday of US fabs, and long before they were all closed. I didn’t need them often, but dad always came through with engineering samples of the really oddball components in any radio or other projects I was building. Half the time it was just because I mentioned I was already using a specific chip or whatever, and a tube of them would magically appear. Ha.

But at least Honeywell did some interesting stuff back then... now we make jokes about them in the Bendix-King thread.
 
I've never been able to lean by RPM drop with a constant speed propeller. Naturally, an explanation for doing something that can't be done doesn't make sense. The whole thing reads like that story about blind people touching an elephant and trying to figure out what it is.
 
It's NOT because the prop is full flat. A pilot can prove that by having the prop knob out a bit when leaning.

What I described is what the propeller does. The valve that makes that happen is called the "pilot valve". If that didn't happen, we wouldnt be able to lean via rpm drop. And pilots can lean to rpm drop, thanks to the "pilot valve". Why do you think they call it the pilot valve?

Just go out and do a runup with the prop knob out a bit and lean while watching the tach. When you get to lean, the rpms will drop a bit. Then you richen. I've done it thousands of times.

Schematic of pilot valve is here:
http://www.thaitechnics.com/propeller/prop_control.html

The pilot valve is part of how the governor works...without it you wouldn't have a constant speed prop. It is not a feature "added" to assist with "leaning".
 
Its "peak RPM" for that prop knob setting.

What you do is this. You climb up, now you level out. You use your throttle to select manifold pressure. You use your prop knob to select your rpm. Now you pull the mixture out and watch the tachometer. You will see a slight rpm drop when it goes "too lean". Then you richen slightly. You are now running as lean as possible, which is ok if you are at 65% power or below.
o_O what? This is new to me.
 
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