Planes that will make the Hawaii trip

jnmeade said:
Are you talking about the risk of an engine failure or something, or are you talking about the consequences of it? Do you think the risk and the consdequences are the same? Your little girl walks one block to grandma's house in a small, quiet midwestern town. The risk of abduction is minimial. But the consequences are incalculable. So, you don't let her walk.
I can't see that the likelihood of an engine failure 1,000 miles out over the ocean are any greater than over Missouri, but the consequences are different.
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I am talking about the total risk of long overwater flights. If you re-read my post you will see I specifically addressed the engine reliability issue. The totality of of risk computation includes possible incident modes and resultant effects. For instance an engine failure over land can have many results with varying risk attached. You can glide to a nearby airfield with minimal risk. You might find a flat unobstructed patch of ground with only slightly higher risk. You might be over deep heavily timbered canyons.

In the first two scenarios the possibilities of surviving are excellent. In the last it is not so certain, but if you survived the landing you would have a reasonable chance of surviving until help arrived.

Over water you have a fair chance of surviving the landing assuming the sea state is not too severe and you know how to ditch at sea correctly, (along the back side of a swell line). Once down, your chances of survival diminish rapidly. Egress from the aircraft, access to survival equipment and proper deployment, and training on water survival all factor into your chances of survival.
 
DouglasBader said:
After one engine fails, dragging along on the other, how far will you get? Big wet footprint.
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One of my favorite Ron White bits concerns a lost engine in a small commuter plane:

"The guy sitting next to me asked how far we could fly on one engine, I told him all the way to the scene of the crash"
 
Tom-D said:
It's easy to wake the whole crew and bring their adrenalin to the max in one easy motion.

just pull the mixture back on #3.
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:rofl:


We had a civilian news photographer along on a ice patrol flight once and when we shut down 2 and 3, ( As we normally did to extend range ), he started bouncing off the walls in back. He obviously missed that part of the briefing!! :D
 
jnmeade said:
Are you talking about the risk of an engine failure or something, or are you talking about the consequences of it? Do you think the risk and the consdequences are the same? Your little girl walks one block to grandma's house in a small, quiet midwestern town. The risk of abduction is minimial. But the consequences are incalculable. So, you don't let her walk.
I can't see that the likelihood of an engine failure 1,000 miles out over the ocean are any greater than over Missouri, but the consequences are different.
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If engine failure ment death everytime there would be little to no more risk in making long overwater flights.

Thing is loosing an engine over Ohio is likely an expensive day, loosing one 1,000 miles out to sea is likely one of my last.
 
Skylane81E said:
If engine failure ment death everytime there would be little to no more risk in making long overwater flights.

Thing is loosing an engine over Ohio is likely an expensive day, loosing one 1,000 miles out to sea is likely one of my last.
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I've had 13 engine failures out of sight of land, all we ever done was to complete the shut down procedures and continue the mission on the other 3.

and call for relief.
 
jnmeade said:
Are you talking about the risk of an engine failure or something, or are you talking about the consequences of it? Do you think the risk and the consdequences are the same? Your little girl walks one block to grandma's house in a small, quiet midwestern town. The risk of abduction is minimial. But the consequences are incalculable. So, you don't let her walk.
I can't see that the likelihood of an engine failure 1,000 miles out over the ocean are any greater than over Missouri, but the consequences are different.
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Not exactly, but they are inextricably linked factors of risk in this situation at least. You have total risk which combines both the risk of the occurrence as well as consequences. Over land if I loose an engine, I'll be able to fly to the nearest airport. On a long over water leg though that is not an option and depending on where along the route I am, I may not make shore due to reduced efficiency, hopefully though I will be able to make it to a ship to ditch off of. Therefore crossing an ocean has a greater risk factor than flying over land even in a multi, hence the reason for the ETOPS rules.
 
Tom-D said:
I've had 13 engine failures out of sight of land, all we ever done was to complete the shut down procedures and continue the mission on the other 3.

and call for relief.
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I had a lightning strike and fire while in transit from Johnston Is. to Hono. Almost had an involuntary "relief" :D
 
Doesn't an engine go into automatic rough as soon as the airplane is beyond gliding distance of land?:hairraise:

I wouldn't do it in anything with a single engine unless I was in a poopy suit and sitting in an ejection seat. And then it would have to be an order. :D

Cheers
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I had a lightning strike and fire while in transit from Johnston Is. to Hono. Almost had an involuntary "relief" :D
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These stories could turn into a oneupmanship real easy, So I'll leave them up to you.
 
X3 Skier said:
Doesn't an engine go into automatic rough as soon as the airplane is beyond gliding distance of land?:hairraise:

I wouldn't do it in anything with a single engine unless I was in a poopy suit and sitting in an ejection seat. And then it would have to be an order. :D

Cheers
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In a Hawaii trip, the second engine is only partially useful, most of the trip it won't get me to land, but it will get me alongside a ship which may save me if the sea conditions allow for a survivable ditching.
 
X3 Skier said:
Doesn't an engine go into automatic rough as soon as the airplane is beyond gliding distance of land?:hairraise:

I wouldn't do it in anything with a single engine unless I was in a poopy suit and sitting in an ejection seat. And then it would have to be an order. :D

Cheers
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OMG, you mentioned the most horrible thing ever invented for over water ops. "The Poopy suit" followed closly by diluter demand O2, on pressure breathing.
 
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Tom-D said:
OMG, you mentioned the most horrible thing ever invented for over water ops. "The Poopy suit"
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Not if you've ever been dumped into cold water, then it becomes the miracle suit that saves your life.
 
I have been in situations, (like Doug B, and Tom D) in which 4 is just BARELY enough.
 
Wow, great information here. A lot of research to do - fortunately I have the time to do it; I'm sure it'll be several months before I have the golden PPL.

Some thoughts on risk. Good to consider all the possible dangers. Very useful for preparation but, in the end, risk is not going to stop me from making at least one flight across.

As for the TSA: the hassle isn't that big a deal - not compared to the time spent sitting in a tiny airplane seat for as long as the crossing I'm contemplating would take. No, it's more that I was born into a free country and, somewhere along the way, I seem to have moved to a police state.

But all that aside, some great suggestions here and some good links. The quest has begun! :D
 
There's a lot more involved in making oceanic crossings than simply pointing the nose and going, coupled with grit.

In aviation, we're not about taking risks. We're about finding them, and eliminating them. We eliminate them by opening another avenue of escape such that the risk won't hurt us, by avoiding the situation completely, or by altering the situation.

I hear a lot of bravado, usually from inexperienced pilots, saying "there's risk in everything," and "it's a calculated risk." This is bull****.

Before you attempt a long distance flight by yourself, make the trip with an experienced pilot who knows the route, the procedures, and who has done it before.
 
davemha said:
Wow, great information here. A lot of research to do - fortunately I have the time to do it; I'm sure it'll be several months before I have the golden PPL.

Some thoughts on risk. Good to consider all the possible dangers. Very useful for preparation but, in the end, risk is not going to stop me from making at least one flight across.

As for the TSA: the hassle isn't that big a deal - not compared to the time spent sitting in a tiny airplane seat for as long as the crossing I'm contemplating would take. No, it's more that I was born into a free country and, somewhere along the way, I seem to have moved to a police state.

But all that aside, some great suggestions here and some good links. The quest has begun! :D
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Write to Bill Cox at Plane and Pilot magazine. He is an international ferry pilot who has flown singles from California to Hawaii on a number of occasions.

Bob Gardner
 
davemha said:
Wow, great information here. A lot of research to do - fortunately I have the time to do it; I'm sure it'll be several months before I have the golden PPL.

Some thoughts on risk. Good to consider all the possible dangers. Very useful for preparation but, in the end, risk is not going to stop me from making at least one flight across.

As for the TSA: the hassle isn't that big a deal - not compared to the time spent sitting in a tiny airplane seat for as long as the crossing I'm contemplating would take. No, it's more that I was born into a free country and, somewhere along the way, I seem to have moved to a police state.

But all that aside, some great suggestions here and some good links. The quest has begun! :D
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Here you go man. Get a 172 with a bunch of ferry tanks and you have yourself a nice 24 hour flight. Fight the dreaded TSA!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn4PzNMV5OQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.globalpilot.info/
 
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Here is the safe way to do it.
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numl0ck said:
and the uncool way. you don't get any awesome stories to tell...assuming you make it alive.
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I did it once in a tankered up 56TC Baron, long boring flight with no story at all, just fuel management to keep my CG near aft limit for efficiency,even the take off from Santa Barbara was a long roll but uneventful.
 
Henning said:
I did it once in a tankered up 56TC Baron, long boring flight with no story at all, just fuel management to keep my CG near aft limit for efficiency,even the take off from Santa Barbara was a long roll but uneventful.
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in aviation boring is usually a good thing.
 
To the OP: there are good removable ferry tanks available for lots of different singles, and the risk is what it is... but have you thought about what this will cost in fuel alone, let alone the tanks, the survival gear, etc?
I don't see it working for you on any regular basis. Just living in Hawaii ain't cheap, and without even checking I'll wager avgas prices are high over there. Cigar-tube travel is a hassle, but compared to flying yourself, you can't beat the price for that trip. And with a jet transport, the risk goes way down for such a crossing.

But if you can afford it, have fun! :thumbsup:
 
rottydaddy said:
To the OP: there are good removable ferry tanks available for lots of different singles, and the risk is what it is... but have you thought about what this will cost in fuel alone, let alone the tanks, the survival gear, etc?
I don't see it working for you on any regular basis. Just living in Hawaii ain't cheap, and without even checking I'll wager avgas prices are high over there. Cigar-tube travel is a hassle, but compared to flying yourself, you can't beat the price for that trip. And with a jet transport, the risk goes way down for such a crossing.

But if you can afford it, have fun! :thumbsup:
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No, you're right - it's not gonna be something I can afford to do regularly. But I can afford to do it once.
 
davemha said:
No, you're right - it's not gonna be something I can afford to do regularly. But I can afford to do it once.
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Then go for it in whatever, nearly anything can make the ferry flight tankered up. Just do like with the Baron and pull all the seats but the pilots seat and send them UPS, frame in a bunch of bladders and a fuel manifold so you can control you CG and rock on. Should be able to do it for under $10k.
 
Mooney Ovation with 130+ gals in wing with long range tanks (no ferry tanks). Burning 8gal/hour (LOP) at 18,000ft they do 155kts TAS. With a 130+ gals that gives you over 2400nm. So you get a 400nm reserve for the trip. For this trip a piston twin has no advantage over a single. With a twin you have twice the possibility of an engine failure. And when it fails you cannot hold altitude with the remaining engine due to the extra fuel weight. Check with Lindbergh and Amelia on this.

José
 
davemha said:
No, you're right - it's not gonna be something I can afford to do regularly. But I can afford to do it once.
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Then why look for a "daily flyer" that can do the trip in its stock config? Get something you can easily afford to hang onto and make inter-island hops with, and ferry-tank the hell out of it for the "big adventure". I think you can even rent the gear necessary for something like this, although I might be mistaken.
 
Piloto said:
Mooney Ovation with 130+ gals in wing with long range tanks (no ferry tanks). Burning 8gal/hour (LOP) at 18,000ft they do 155kts TAS. With a 130+ gals that gives you over 2400nm. So you get a 400nm reserve for the trip. For this trip a piston twin has no advantage over a single. With a twin you have twice the possibility of an engine failure. And when it fails you cannot hold altitude with the remaining engine due to the extra fuel weight. Check with Lindbergh and Amelia on this.

José
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Yep, the only place the second engine does you any good is in first short bit where it can maybe extend your glide far enough to get back to the beach or a boat and the last couple of hours if you are light enough on fuel but still have enough to make it at reduced speed. There are plenty of boats and ships along the route,carry a 406 G/PLB and a marine VHF on channel 16 and 2182 on the HF rig will get you across to most vessels. I would also have a SART which shows up as 12 dots leading to you on a 3cm radar. Tailwinds are a mixed blessing, they save you time and fuel, but anything over 18kts on the surface and you're in for a really tricky ditching due to the sea state, you better figure out how to put it in before you have to. Also wear your Gumby suit to the waist and drape the rest over the back of your seat so you can slip into it on the glide, get the one with the three finger mitten hands, the five finger gloves are a real PITA to get your hands in.
 
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Henning said:
I did it once in a tankered up 56TC Baron, long boring flight with no story at all, just fuel management to keep my CG near aft limit for efficiency,even the take off from Santa Barbara was a long roll but uneventful.
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A ferry for Southern Cross Aviation?
 
Bobcat1 said:
A ferry for Southern Cross Aviation?
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No, for a private guy where we had just done a bunch of work on the plane, did go through them for the ferry rig rental though. BTW, I would recommend their services to anyone, first rate.
 
I can't resist. I love flying light aircraft, but my preferred planes for mainland to Hawaii trips all start with a B, as in B-757, B-767, etc. As Grayhound used to say, "Leave the driving to us."

Sorry... :D
 
Ghery said:
I can't resist. I love flying light aircraft, but my preferred planes for mainland to Hawaii trips all start with a B, as in B-757, B-767, etc. As Grayhound used to say, "Leave the driving to us."

Sorry... :D
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Personally I'd still like to build a nice transPac plane, not so much for getting there, but for the stops along the way. The Hawaii run obviously doesn't have any, but it's only the first leg of my typical transPac, and yes, it would most definitely land on water. There is a Lake Amphib that will do it that was built for the military, Seawolf IIRC, basically a tankered up Renegade they never certified. They come up for sale here and there.
 
I've flown the lake amphibs, and wouldn't care to be sitting in the middle of the ocean in one.
 
The military flew the O-2's(Cessna 337 variant) to Vietnam via Hawaii...there was only room in the cabin for the pilot with the seats removed for fuel but it will do it.
 
DouglasBader said:
I've flown the lake amphibs, and wouldn't care to be sitting in the middle of the ocean in one.
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Nope, but there are a heck of a lot of lagoons in Attols between Hawaii and Australia/New Zeeland that I sure wouldn't mind sitting in.
 
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