Plane Down in Payson AZ

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by azpilot, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    597
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azpilot
    This happened a few days ago on 1/24, but I haven't seen a thread on this crash. This article was just published with a little more detail than the early reports that came out the day of the crash.

    https://www.paysonroundup.com/news/...cle_2122acca-4dd9-50e0-80fa-9ed6fa5724ba.html

    My sister has a connection with man that was killed, and she was peppering me with a bunch of questions last night about aviation in general. I took her flying to the Payson airport a while back.

    This makes me think about the responsibility we have to our passengers. It is likely that the man killed did not fully appreciate the risk he was taking flying with a private pilot, low over mountainous terrain, so they could scout for wildlife.
     
  2. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,280
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
  3. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,302
    Location:
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Stan Cooper
  4. Todd82

    Todd82 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    365
    Location:
    Southwest Ohio
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Todd
    3 folks in a Cherokee 140 in the mountains, presumably low and slow because of searching for the aforementioned critters, when the terrain is already well in excess of 5000'. 140s aren't known for an abundance of power and climb...
     
  5. Scrabo

    Scrabo Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,991
    Location:
    PHX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Scrabo
    Thanks for posting, had not heard anything about it
     
  6. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    597
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azpilot
    Low and slow over mountainous terrain with trees while distracted looking for stuff on the ground while likely flying close to max gross (three adult males). What could go wrong...
     
  7. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,311
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Really?

    Still safer then being a fat cigarette smoker though
     
    Tantalum, benyflyguy and 3393RP like this.
  8. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    597
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azpilot
    Yes really. Commercial aviation is safe. Very safe. Like, 1,000 times safer than driving a car safe. General aviation is not that safe. The evidence in the articles above suggests the pilot in this case was taking on quite a few risk factors. It is unlikely that the non-pilot passengers fully appreciated those extra risks.

    The risks of smoking are well known. A person that smokes knows what they are getting into. This guy that died likely did not.
     
    PeterNSteinmetz likes this.
  9. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,311
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    If thats the case the guy wasn’t too smart.

    And they don’t, cigs will catch you, but being fat always does, look at all the fat kids running around, and their parents feeding them junk, or all the people who order a large drink when they are already a large.

    Frankly the GA is dangerous thing is laughable, life is 100% fatal, sad part is when it goes lights out and you didn’t even do anything with the limited time you had because you were scared of every damn thing.
     
  10. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    597
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azpilot
    How so, because he wasn't a pilot and hadn't been taught or learned the things that certain types of flying dangerous? You're assuming the general public knows all the risks of aviation. The general public doesn't know jack squat about aviation. If he's a pilot, or knows about aviation, then yes, he knew the risks. But if he doesn't have an aviation background, then he is not aware of the risks.

    As for general aviation, "dangerous" is relative. General aviation is roughly as risky as driving somewhere in a car. And when you add in the risk factors that were likely present here, this flight was roughly equivalent to driving around late at night in an area known to have a high number of drunk drivers. I'll let you put that wherever you want on the dangerous vs. safe scale.

    In my view, It's our job as pilots to help our passengers understand the risks they are taking. They are putting their lives in our hands. And that is the only point I'm trying to make here. We should be educating our passengers about the risks, and be honest about it. If we tell them that flying in a GA airplane is as safe as flying commercial, we are lying.
     
  11. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    3,225
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    It would be interesting to compare the death rate of fat cigarette smokers to the death rate of pilots flying low and slow in mountainous terrain with little reserve power and near gross.
     
    azpilot likes this.
  12. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,280
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    Pilot was 21 years old with PPL issued 11/18.

    Aircraft owned by the pilot who was from Fernley NV.
     
  13. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,892
    Location:
    El Paso, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    danhagan
    Nothing is safe ... am guessing Kobe wouldn't agree with you about commercial aviation.:(

    What a shame ... 2 months post PPL:(
     
  14. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,594
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3393RP
    Better check your calendar.
     
  15. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,311
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Quarter mil a year die from being fat

    Cigs add to that.

    Not many really old really fat people, now I have met quite a few really old AG pilots, for whatever that’s worth.
     
  16. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    597
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azpilot
    Apologies, I should have said that airlines are that 'safe'.
     
  17. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,269
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    upload_2020-2-4_12-38-34.png
     
    GRG55, 3393RP, Pilawt and 1 other person like this.
  18. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,269
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    When I first read this post I wasn't going to bite.. but here I am, thankfully someone else did

    Does the average person appreciate all the risks they take getting into an Uber/Lyft/cab/etc? I really hate this notion that people flying "with a private pilot" are taking on some massive risk that they need to have prior consultation on. General aviation is as safe as the individual pilot makes it. Because there is such little standardization and similarity in the kind of flying you and me and someone else does the statistics really don't mean anything... at all

    Person A might fly 100 hrs a year, mostly VFR, some IMC, 200-300 nm away for skiing / camping / other trips
    Person B might fly 10-20 hrs a year, all VFR, the occasional weekend pattern or site seeing trip, gets scared in turbulence
    Person C might fly 500 hrs a year, lots of IMC
    Person D might be doing pipeline inspections
    Person E might have 10,000 hrs (commercial pilot) and has a 150 for weekend tooling around

    You really can't compare any of these people to each other. If person D's wing breaks off, and Person E forgets the control lock in place one day, and they both die, you really can't then argue that someone going up a trip with Person C has a high likelihood of death
     
    Pilawt likes this.
  19. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,280
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    I hope people taking a Lyft or Uber realize this may be more dangerous than riding with a professional limo driver.

    I also hope people realize that flying in GA aircraft is on average more dangerous than taking a commercial flight and that their safety will depend on the owner and pilot of the craft, so they should perhaps think about that a bit.

    I tend to agree generally because 1 fatality per 100,000 hours of flight is a fairly low risk and close to the risks we usually consider negligible in daily life, but not quite.
     
  20. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,559
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jack Fleetwood
    I don't think fat cigarettes are much worse than the thin ones.
     
  21. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,269
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    Yup.. that's why it's hard to make generalizations.. there's also an expectation that if someone is offering to take someone else flying they're aware that they have someone else's life in their hands and will be vigilant about that. I often tell first time, slightly nervous passengers "don't worry, I'd like to eat my lunch today too" .. and if someone is not scared, what good is it going to do for me to scare the hell out of them before we go flying?

    ..this notion that:
    ..sound good, but in practice I have never seen someone sit down and "hey Tim, I got to be honest, I'm not the best pilot, I'm a barely legally current weekend warrior who flies about 1 hr every other weekend, less than 30 hrs a year total. Getting in a plane with me might kill you, in fact, it's probably around as dangerous, if not more, than riding with me at night after New Years Eve in a bad part of town with lots of drunk drivers, or like getting on a motorcycle with me. There's a decent chance we'll die today, this is nowhere near as safe as what you'll find on Delta, the plane is 60 years old and has an engine that was designed in the 1930s, hell, I might not even be able to start it" <- what the hell? No one will fly with you, they're going to say "so why did you offer to take me flying?" It's also reasonable to assume that the vast majority of people, in addition to a latent inherent fear of flying, will be able to put two and two together and know that Bob and his 1978 Cessna are on a different caliber than that JetBlue A320 they flew on last month

    It's one of these "feels good" things to say that has no real world practicality to it "if only they'd known the risks"... like every building in California having a sign on it "this building might have a chemical on it that might give you cancer"... okay.. thanks for telling me?

    ^sorry to come off like an A##.. I'm just being completely honest
     
    3393RP likes this.
  22. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,311
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331

    [​IMG]
     
    Lowflynjack likes this.
  23. Todd82

    Todd82 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    365
    Location:
    Southwest Ohio
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Todd
    GA isn't dangerous. 3 adults in a Cherokee 140 in high terrain flying low and slow is very dangerous.

    This guy gets it.
     
    James331 likes this.
  24. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,734
    Location:
    KY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meet the Fokkers
    A lot of people are fat and smoke all day everyday for a few decades until something happens.
    If you fly 3 adults in a Cherokee 140 in high terrain low and slow all day everyday, I'd bet they they won't last for a few decades until something happens.

    Now...if you are fat, smoke, and fly 3 adults in a Cherokee 140 in high terrain low and slow all day everyday, you deserve whatever you get lol.
     
    Todd82 likes this.