Plane Down in Payson AZ

azpilot

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azpilot
This happened a few days ago on 1/24, but I haven't seen a thread on this crash. This article was just published with a little more detail than the early reports that came out the day of the crash.

https://www.paysonroundup.com/news/...cle_2122acca-4dd9-50e0-80fa-9ed6fa5724ba.html

My sister has a connection with man that was killed, and she was peppering me with a bunch of questions last night about aviation in general. I took her flying to the Payson airport a while back.

This makes me think about the responsibility we have to our passengers. It is likely that the man killed did not fully appreciate the risk he was taking flying with a private pilot, low over mountainous terrain, so they could scout for wildlife.
 
3 folks in a Cherokee 140 in the mountains, presumably low and slow because of searching for the aforementioned critters, when the terrain is already well in excess of 5000'. 140s aren't known for an abundance of power and climb...
 
Thanks for posting, had not heard anything about it
 
3 folks in a Cherokee 140 in the mountains, presumably low and slow because of searching for the aforementioned critters, when the terrain is already well in excess of 5000'. 140s aren't known for an abundance of power and climb...

Low and slow over mountainous terrain with trees while distracted looking for stuff on the ground while likely flying close to max gross (three adult males). What could go wrong...
 
Really?

Still safer then being a fat cigarette smoker though

Yes really. Commercial aviation is safe. Very safe. Like, 1,000 times safer than driving a car safe. General aviation is not that safe. The evidence in the articles above suggests the pilot in this case was taking on quite a few risk factors. It is unlikely that the non-pilot passengers fully appreciated those extra risks.

The risks of smoking are well known. A person that smokes knows what they are getting into. This guy that died likely did not.
 
Yes really. Commercial aviation is safe. Very safe. Like, 1,000 times safer than driving a car safe. General aviation is not that safe. The evidence in the articles above suggests the pilot in this case was taking on quite a few risk factors. It is unlikely that the non-pilot passengers fully appreciated those extra risks.

The risks of smoking are well known. A person that smokes knows what they are getting into. This guy that died likely did not.

If thats the case the guy wasn’t too smart.

And they don’t, cigs will catch you, but being fat always does, look at all the fat kids running around, and their parents feeding them junk, or all the people who order a large drink when they are already a large.

Frankly the GA is dangerous thing is laughable, life is 100% fatal, sad part is when it goes lights out and you didn’t even do anything with the limited time you had because you were scared of every damn thing.
 
If thats the case the guy wasn’t too smart.

How so, because he wasn't a pilot and hadn't been taught or learned the things that certain types of flying dangerous? You're assuming the general public knows all the risks of aviation. The general public doesn't know jack squat about aviation. If he's a pilot, or knows about aviation, then yes, he knew the risks. But if he doesn't have an aviation background, then he is not aware of the risks.

As for general aviation, "dangerous" is relative. General aviation is roughly as risky as driving somewhere in a car. And when you add in the risk factors that were likely present here, this flight was roughly equivalent to driving around late at night in an area known to have a high number of drunk drivers. I'll let you put that wherever you want on the dangerous vs. safe scale.

In my view, It's our job as pilots to help our passengers understand the risks they are taking. They are putting their lives in our hands. And that is the only point I'm trying to make here. We should be educating our passengers about the risks, and be honest about it. If we tell them that flying in a GA airplane is as safe as flying commercial, we are lying.
 
Really?

Still safer then being a fat cigarette smoker though
It would be interesting to compare the death rate of fat cigarette smokers to the death rate of pilots flying low and slow in mountainous terrain with little reserve power and near gross.
 
Pilot was 21 years old with PPL issued 11/18.

Aircraft owned by the pilot who was from Fernley NV.
 
Yes really. Commercial aviation is safe. Very safe. Like, 1,000 times safer than driving a car safe.

Nothing is safe ... am guessing Kobe wouldn't agree with you about commercial aviation.:(

Pilot was 21 years old with PPL issued 11/18.
Aircraft owned by the pilot who was from Fernley NV.

What a shame ... 2 months post PPL:(
 
It would be interesting to compare the death rate of fat cigarette smokers to the death rate of pilots flying low and slow in mountainous terrain with little reserve power and near gross.

Quarter mil a year die from being fat

Cigs add to that.

Not many really old really fat people, now I have met quite a few really old AG pilots, for whatever that’s worth.
 
Nothing is safe ... am guessing Kobe wouldn't agree with you about commercial aviation.:(

What a shame ... 2 months post PPL:(
Apologies, I should have said that airlines are that 'safe'.
 
It is likely that the man killed did not fully appreciate the risk he was taking flying with a private pilot, low over mountainous terrain, so they could scout for wildlife.
When I first read this post I wasn't going to bite.. but here I am, thankfully someone else did

Does the average person appreciate all the risks they take getting into an Uber/Lyft/cab/etc? I really hate this notion that people flying "with a private pilot" are taking on some massive risk that they need to have prior consultation on. General aviation is as safe as the individual pilot makes it. Because there is such little standardization and similarity in the kind of flying you and me and someone else does the statistics really don't mean anything... at all

Person A might fly 100 hrs a year, mostly VFR, some IMC, 200-300 nm away for skiing / camping / other trips
Person B might fly 10-20 hrs a year, all VFR, the occasional weekend pattern or site seeing trip, gets scared in turbulence
Person C might fly 500 hrs a year, lots of IMC
Person D might be doing pipeline inspections
Person E might have 10,000 hrs (commercial pilot) and has a 150 for weekend tooling around

You really can't compare any of these people to each other. If person D's wing breaks off, and Person E forgets the control lock in place one day, and they both die, you really can't then argue that someone going up a trip with Person C has a high likelihood of death
 
When I first read this post I wasn't going to bite.. but here I am, thankfully someone else did

Does the average person appreciate all the risks they take getting into an Uber/Lyft/cab/etc? I really hate this notion that people flying "with a private pilot" are taking on some massive risk that they need to have prior consultation on. General aviation is as safe as the individual pilot makes it. Because there is such little standardization and similarity in the kind of flying you and me and someone else does the statistics really don't mean anything... at all

Person A might fly 100 hrs a year, mostly VFR, some IMC, 200-300 nm away for skiing / camping / other trips
Person B might fly 10-20 hrs a year, all VFR, the occasional weekend pattern or site seeing trip, gets scared in turbulence
Person C might fly 500 hrs a year, lots of IMC
Person D might be doing pipeline inspections
Person E might have 10,000 hrs (commercial pilot) and has a 150 for weekend tooling around

You really can't compare any of these people to each other. If person D's wing breaks off, and Person E forgets the control lock in place one day, and they both die, you really can't then argue that someone going up a trip with Person C has a high likelihood of death

I hope people taking a Lyft or Uber realize this may be more dangerous than riding with a professional limo driver.

I also hope people realize that flying in GA aircraft is on average more dangerous than taking a commercial flight and that their safety will depend on the owner and pilot of the craft, so they should perhaps think about that a bit.

I tend to agree generally because 1 fatality per 100,000 hours of flight is a fairly low risk and close to the risks we usually consider negligible in daily life, but not quite.
 
their safety will depend on the owner and pilot of the craft
Yup.. that's why it's hard to make generalizations.. there's also an expectation that if someone is offering to take someone else flying they're aware that they have someone else's life in their hands and will be vigilant about that. I often tell first time, slightly nervous passengers "don't worry, I'd like to eat my lunch today too" .. and if someone is not scared, what good is it going to do for me to scare the hell out of them before we go flying?

..this notion that:
In my view, It's our job as pilots to help our passengers understand the risks they are taking. They are putting their lives in our hands. And that is the only point I'm trying to make here. We should be educating our passengers about the risks, and be honest about it.
..sound good, but in practice I have never seen someone sit down and "hey Tim, I got to be honest, I'm not the best pilot, I'm a barely legally current weekend warrior who flies about 1 hr every other weekend, less than 30 hrs a year total. Getting in a plane with me might kill you, in fact, it's probably around as dangerous, if not more, than riding with me at night after New Years Eve in a bad part of town with lots of drunk drivers, or like getting on a motorcycle with me. There's a decent chance we'll die today, this is nowhere near as safe as what you'll find on Delta, the plane is 60 years old and has an engine that was designed in the 1930s, hell, I might not even be able to start it" <- what the hell? No one will fly with you, they're going to say "so why did you offer to take me flying?" It's also reasonable to assume that the vast majority of people, in addition to a latent inherent fear of flying, will be able to put two and two together and know that Bob and his 1978 Cessna are on a different caliber than that JetBlue A320 they flew on last month

It's one of these "feels good" things to say that has no real world practicality to it "if only they'd known the risks"... like every building in California having a sign on it "this building might have a chemical on it that might give you cancer"... okay.. thanks for telling me?

^sorry to come off like an A##.. I'm just being completely honest
 
I don't think fat cigarettes are much worse than the thin ones.


tony-soprano-cigar-canvas-painting-20243-p.jpg
 
Frankly the GA is dangerous thing is laughable, life is 100% fatal, sad part is when it goes lights out and you didn’t even do anything with the limited time you had because you were scared of every damn thing.

GA isn't dangerous. 3 adults in a Cherokee 140 in high terrain flying low and slow is very dangerous.

It would be interesting to compare the death rate of fat cigarette smokers to the death rate of pilots flying low and slow in mountainous terrain with little reserve power and near gross.
This guy gets it.
 
A lot of people are fat and smoke all day everyday for a few decades until something happens.
If you fly 3 adults in a Cherokee 140 in high terrain low and slow all day everyday, I'd bet they they won't last for a few decades until something happens.

Now...if you are fat, smoke, and fly 3 adults in a Cherokee 140 in high terrain low and slow all day everyday, you deserve whatever you get lol.
 
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