Plane circling over the gulf of Mexico

More accurately, the airplanes are equipped with an O2 system. Whether it is turned on, whether it contains O2, or whether the masks are attached or operable is highly speculative. If it's an even-odds bet, I'll take the under.

Henning said:
Yes, there is supplemental pilot O2 available, often with a quick donning mask.
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If I am flying above 20,000 I normally plug in the mask and set it beside me. Again, I am only commenting from the Cheyenne but I have a master warning when the cabin goes above around 11,300. It would be hard to ignore that. Have no operational experience in the 421. Got to be some kind of warning. I agree with some others that it was a medical issue.:dunno:
 
Yeah I just read 91.211 again. Guess I wasn't as familiar with it as I thought:)
Can't remember the last time I read it.

Not really sure what happened in this case. Probably medical but what about the two pilot crew of Payne Stewart's jet? How the hell did that happen? Any ideas? I'm just really curious about how these things happen!
 
wabower said:
More accurately, the airplanes are equipped with an O2 system. Whether it is turned on, whether it contains O2, or whether the masks are attached or operable is highly speculative. If it's an even-odds bet, I'll take the under.
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I won't cover it.
 
redtail said:
Yeah I just read 91.211 again. Guess I wasn't as familiar with it as I thought:)
Can't remember the last time I read it.

Not really sure what happened in this case. Probably medical but what about the two pilot crew of Payne Stewart's jet? How the hell did that happen? Any ideas? I'm just really curious about how these things happen!
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421 is a single pilot aircraft so that opens the options. Doesn't really matter, likely as anything he had an MI and died instantly. People die every day.
 
what about the two pilot crew of Payne Stewart's jet? How the hell did that happen? Any ideas? I'm just really curious about how these things happen!
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you probably saw the report which says decompression, cause unknown (likely a recurrence of past pressurization problems, imo)

But "how did it happen". You mean why did they crash despite the warnings, the O2 availability?
Here is my 'speculation':
Pressure falls til cabin alt reaches 10K or so, the master warning comes on, the annunciator panel says "Cabin Pressure" or some such. Instead of immediately donning masks and dialing in 100% O2 they try to think it through for a moment. And that's all it takes.
"Research has shown that a period of as little as 8 seconds without supplemental oxygen following rapid depressurization to about 30,000 feet may cause a drop in oxygen saturation that can significantly impair cognitive functioning and increase the amount of time required to complete complex tasks."

I think crews need to be hair triggered to get the O2 into their mouths the instant they get the warning.
I think the natural tendency is 'don't rush, we gotta few minutes' for any abnormal but this is the one in which that is not true.

Get a warning or indication: Mask On, 100% O2 NOW. Then you can F around, trying to figure out what the problem is, while doing your descent.
 
Henning said:
421 is a single pilot aircraft so that opens the options. Doesn't really matter, likely as anything he had an MI and died instantly. People die every day.
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That's true. Sorry for the thread hop to the Payne Stewart crash BUT...With two professional pilots flying and neither one of them can manage to don the mask in time before blacking out, tells me that something is fundamentally flawed with the FAA rules! Maybe the altitude requirements are set too high! Or am I just missing something? I'm in no way judging the crew (I'm in no position to), I'm just trying to learn this stuff:). and I have a LOT to learn:lol:


From wiki:

"NTSB investigators concluded that the plane suffered a loss of cabin pressure and that all on board died of hypoxia. A delay of only a few seconds in donning oxygen masks, coupled with cognitive and motor skill impairment, could have been enough to result in the pilots' incapacitation"
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
you probably saw the report which says decompression, cause unknown (likely a recurrence of past pressurization problems, imo)

But "how did it happen". You mean why did they crash despite the warnings, the O2 availability?
Here is my 'speculation':
Pressure falls til cabin alt reaches 10K or so, the master warning comes on, the annunciator panel says "Cabin Pressure" or some such. Instead of immediately donning masks and dialing in 100% O2 they try to think it through for a moment. And that's all it takes.
"Research has shown that a period of as little as 8 seconds without supplemental oxygen following rapid depressurization to about 30,000 feet may cause a drop in oxygen saturation that can significantly impair cognitive functioning and increase the amount of time required to complete complex tasks."

I think crews need to be hair triggered to get the O2 into their mouths the instant they get the warning.
I think the natural tendency is 'don't rush, we gotta few minutes' for any abnormal but this is the one in which that is not true.

Get a warning or indication: Mask On, 100% O2 NOW. Then you can F around, trying to figure out what the problem is, while doing your descent.
Click to expand...

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense to me and it seems like something I would think would be a natural response of the crew! OR would some think that's being "impulsive"
 
Inexperienced Lear crew members often mistake "on" and "off" positions on the o2 bottle valve during preflight. If so, donning masks is futile.
Let'sgoflying! said:
you on probably saw the report which says decompression, cause unknown (likely a recurrence of past pressurization problems, imo)

But "how did it happen". You mean why did they crash despite the warnings, the O2 availability?
Here is my 'speculation':
Pressure falls til cabin alt reaches 10K or so, the master warning comes on, the annunciator panel says "Cabin Pressure" or some such. Instead of immediately donning masks and dialing in 100% O2 they try to think it through for a moment. And that's all it takes.
"Research has shown that a period of as little as 8 seconds without supplemental oxygen following rapid depressurization to about 30,000 feet may cause a drop in oxygen saturation that can significantly impair cognitive functioning and increase the amount of time required to complete complex tasks."

I think crews need to be hair triggered to get the O2 into their mouths the instant they get the warning.
I think the natural tendency is 'don't rush, we gotta few minutes' for any abnormal but this is the one in which that is not true.

Get a warning or indication: Mask On, 100% O2 NOW. Then you can F around, trying to figure out what the problem is, while doing your descent.
Click to expand...
 
I remember when I had that low oil pressure indication on the G1000 MFD last year, I made an immediate precautionary landing at that nice East Hampton airport beneath me. Well an Airbus Capt. said I was supposed to "complete the flight". because I was being impulsive! :dunno:
Yeah right!:no:
 
redtail said:
That's true. Sorry for the thread hop to the Payne Stewart crash BUT...With two professional pilots flying and neither one of them can manage to don the mask in time before blacking out, tells me that something is fundamentally flawed with the FAA rules! Maybe the altitude requirements are set too high! Or am I just missing something? I'm in no way judging the crew (I'm in no position to), I'm just trying to learn this stuff:). and I have a LOT to learn:lol:
Click to expand...
There was also speculation that the O2 bottle was either not turned on or empty.
 
There was also speculation that the O2 bottle was either not turned on or empty.
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Skipped preflight checklist items (or they ignored an empty bottle).
Check Mask Fit
Test O2 flow

now if someone put air into the bottle there is no way to know.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
you probably saw the report which says decompression, cause unknown (likely a recurrence of past pressurization problems, imo)

But "how did it happen". You mean why did they crash despite the warnings, the O2 availability?
Here is my 'speculation':
Pressure falls til cabin alt reaches 10K or so, the master warning comes on, the annunciator panel says "Cabin Pressure" or some such. Instead of immediately donning masks and dialing in 100% O2 they try to think it through for a moment. And that's all it takes.
"Research has shown that a period of as little as 8 seconds without supplemental oxygen following rapid depressurization to about 30,000 feet may cause a drop in oxygen saturation that can significantly impair cognitive functioning and increase the amount of time required to complete complex tasks."

I think crews need to be hair triggered to get the O2 into their mouths the instant they get the warning.
I think the natural tendency is 'don't rush, we gotta few minutes' for any abnormal but this is the one in which that is not true.

Get a warning or indication: Mask On, 100% O2 NOW. Then you can F around, trying to figure out what the problem is, while doing your descent.
Click to expand...

The Jetstream had a nice Quick Donning, inflating headband unit. There was also policy over some altitude we never came close to reaching if one of us left the cockpit, the other had to go on O2.
 
Dry ice on board ? carrying some seafood home ?

dry ice - the outgassing from it can cause asphyxiation due to displacement of oxygen in confined locations and also could cause the fogged/iced windows.

wouldn't be the first time.
 
jaybee said:
Dry ice on board ? carrying some seafood home ?

dry ice - the outgassing from it can cause asphyxiation due to displacement of oxygen in confined locations and also could cause the fogged/iced windows.

wouldn't be the first time.
Click to expand...


Shifting load of shrimp on regular ice can get you too. Had to make my companion shovel it back forward from her seat.
 
Above FL250 the pilot has to wear O2 if the other guy leaves his station. Above FL350 someone has to don the mask regardless. That said its the most ignored rule ever. If the cabin popped at FL430 and nobody had air it wouldn't be pretty.

I dont think I've ever seen some one put the mask on above FL350. Closest I've seen is someone put the mask on their lap when I go pee.

Someone suggested donning the mask above 10K? Heart is in the right place but it'd never happen. Here's a fun game, listen to ATC and see if you ever hear someone talking through a mask. Should be half of them above FL350 right? It's closer to none. That's why Pyane Stewart died.
 
redtail said:
I remember when I had that low oil pressure indication on the G1000 MFD last year, I made an immediate precautionary landing at that nice East Hampton airport beneath me. Well an Airbus Capt. said I was supposed to "complete the flight". because I was being impulsive! :dunno:
Yeah right!:no:
Click to expand...

This is discussed in the POH.
Hint: There is a crosscheck instrument you are supposed to use.
 
Captain said:
Above FL250 the pilot has to wear O2 if the other guy leaves his station. Above FL350 someone has to don the mask regardless. That said its the most ignored rule ever. If the cabin popped at FL430 and nobody had air it wouldn't be pretty.

I dont think I've ever seen some one put the mask on above FL350. Closest I've seen is someone put the mask on their lap when I go pee.

Someone suggested donning the mask above 10K? Heart is in the right place but it'd never happen. Here's a fun game, listen to ATC and see if you ever hear someone talking through a mask. Should be half of them above FL350 right? It's closer to none. That's why Pyane Stewart died.
Click to expand...

So as PIC you are admitting to breaking the regs? I have heard many guys on the radio wearing the mask. I agree that it probably often ignored, but I dont agree you can tell just by listening to the frequency. It would make more sense that when both pilots are in the cockpit above the 350, that the PF would be wearing the mask while PNF would be working the radios. For the times above 250, you need both a crew member to leave there seat AND them to make a radio call and it is not uncommon to go ten or more minutes without having to talk. I think saying that it should be fifty percent of time is way high.
 
redtail said:
Oil temp, I know. But with only a few hours back in the cockpit after a ten year hiatus, I wasn't taking any chances:lol:
Click to expand...

With that said, I don't question your decision. I disagree with the captain questioning your decision to effectively pull over so you can evaluate the situation (precautionary landing).
 
How many trans-con and trans-oceanic trips would you think would be necessary to change your mind?

Dave Theisen said:
So as PIC you are admitting to breaking the regs? I have heard many guys on the radio wearing the mask. I agree that it probably often ignored, but I dont agree you can tell just by listening to the frequency. It would make more sense that when both pilots are in the cockpit above the 350, that the PF would be wearing the mask while PNF would be working the radios. For the times above 250, you need both a crew member to leave there seat AND them to make a radio call and it is not uncommon to go ten or more minutes without having to talk. I think saying that it should be fifty percent of time is way high.
Click to expand...
 
It surprises me to see that he filed for FL270, which is not a good altitude for, well, any piston twin I've seen. We'll ignore the altitude considerations, the plane just won't like it. Looking at the winds, it looks like that was the only altitude to get anything resembling a tailwind. Perhaps the intention was to stay up that high for that reason, and avoid having to go via the land route and make an extra stop.

Personally, I'd stick to following the coast in that plane. More options.

Sadly, we probably will never know what happened.
 
Regardless that, the point of Payne Stewart doesn't exactly prove invalid either.
 
Jaybird180 said:
With that said, I don't question your decision. I disagree with the captain questioning your decision to effectively pull over so you can evaluate the situation (precautionary landing).
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Thanks, neither did the CFI that I did my currency training with after a ten year hiatus. Plus I was pretty new to the G1000. Turned out to be a faulty indicator.
 
This is what someone on another board said.

"The aircraft had issues with the cabin pressure a few months back.* It was "fixed" and obviously something failed.* I am also based out of this same small field where the flight originated and the aircraft was based."
 
Dave Theisen said:
I stated that I agree it is often ignored, but you can't tell if a crew is complying with the regs by listening to the frequency. Which point are you disagreeing with?
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Can you tell for certain? No. But here's reality. If its going to be worn it isn't going to be the Captain wearing it. Add to that Captains are mostly going to split legs with their FOs...ergo half the time the Captain has the radio. So, roughly half the radio calls above FL350 should be through a mask.

They are not. I'd say from personal observation the number of crews that actually put it on is less than 1/2 of 1%. I base that on every radio call I've ever heard, every jump seat I've ever occupied, every cockpit I've ever been apart of and every pilot of a plane it applies to I've ever spoken to. The only reason I'd guess 1/2 of 1% is because nothing is 100%. I'm sure somewhere there is someone who does it. But I've never heard of them much less met them.

Payne Stewart was at FL430 in a plane with reported pressurization issues. Perhaps that was the one flight that should have complied with the regs a little better.
 
Btw, ever fly on an airliner? Ever have the pilot come on the PA and anounce your arrival at 38,000 feet and proclaim a smooth ride and the seat belt sign is coming off? Guess who makes that PA announcement and I'll give you a hint, it isn't the Pilot Flying...it's the guy who would be wearing the mask (at least half the time right?) Ever heard that announcement through a mask?
 
Actually, Payne Stewart's crew made a transmission climbing through FL 230 and was none responsive climbing through FL 360. It got up to FL 430 all by itself.

Again, I never said that the reg wasn't often ignored.
 
Captain said:
Above FL250 the pilot has to wear O2 if the other guy leaves his station. Above FL350 someone has to don the mask regardless. That said its the most ignored rule ever. If the cabin popped at FL430 and nobody had air it wouldn't be pretty.

I dont think I've ever seen some one put the mask on above FL350. Closest I've seen is someone put the mask on their lap when I go pee.

Someone suggested donning the mask above 10K? Heart is in the right place but it'd never happen. Here's a fun game, listen to ATC and see if you ever hear someone talking through a mask. Should be half of them above FL350 right? It's closer to none. That's why Pyane Stewart died.
Click to expand...

That's one of the big give-a-ways when a fighter jet passes through here... Their radio transmissions are "quite" distinctive as they sound like they are in a oil drum..... As for the masks... On my trips to Fla from Jac we usually cruise at FL450 for 4 hours, I believe if you "pop" the cabin open and depressurize you have about 4 seconds of useful thoughts till you go blank..... And if you do get the masks on fast enough the -75f air will probably freeze ya to death.:eek::eek:
 
Henning said:
Prior to the C wing without 'tip tanks', yes, and you often have to pump fuel around depending on optional aftermarket tanks. The wet wing planes are one selection per wing/engine. In the 414A and 402A form IIRC (maybe others :dunno:) they ended up with the butt end of a tough AD; not the 421C though.
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Not necessarily. Some are configured with aux tanks.
 
What Captain said. He is 100% dead on. In the real world that is the way it is.
 
Captain said:
Can you tell for certain? No. But here's reality. If its going to be worn it isn't going to be the Captain wearing it. Add to that Captains are mostly going to split legs with their FOs...ergo half the time the Captain has the radio. So, roughly half the radio calls above FL350 should be through a mask.

They are not. I'd say from personal observation the number of crews that actually put it on is less than 1/2 of 1%. I base that on every radio call I've ever heard, every jump seat I've ever occupied, every cockpit I've ever been apart of and every pilot of a plane it applies to I've ever spoken to. The only reason I'd guess 1/2 of 1% is because nothing is 100%. I'm sure somewhere there is someone who does it. But I've never heard of them much less met them.

Payne Stewart was at FL430 in a plane with reported pressurization issues. Perhaps that was the one flight that should have complied with the regs a little better.
Click to expand...

That is the most abused reg in the 121 world.
 
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