Piston twin for the mountains: Do they exist?

-350 can do 4 hours with reserve. It could easily get 700nm range if you play altitudes right. 4400 empty with a 7000 MTOW.

Yeah, you could get 4 hours and 700 nm with legal IFR reserves, but not including Alex's alternate requirements.

With headwinds, we were known to stop for fuel on a 580 nm trip in the Chieftain because we didn't have enough to get to the airport, alternate, and 45 minutes.
 
Yeah, you could get 4 hours and 700 nm with legal IFR reserves, but not including Alex's alternate requirements.

With headwinds, we were known to stop for fuel on a 580 nm trip in the Chieftain because we didn't have enough to get to the airport, alternate, and 45 minutes.

Was that with Mr. I-want-to-go-fast, though? Alex didn't seem to care about the speed, so would pulling back and running LOP change that equation enough in favor of the Chieftain?
 
OEI performance on those won't be quite what Alex is looking for. Additionally, fuel burn on those is high enough and tankage low enough that he won't get the 700 nm range + IFR reserves he's looking for.
I really think you can get 700nm with extended IFR reserves with the 200 gallons you get with the big tank versions of the 401/402. As for OEI performance at max gross, I only have 100 hours in a 401, but I think it will do what he wants.
 
Does a REAL mountain twin exist? By REAL I mean lose one on takeoff at gross and meet TERPS requirements on an OEI departure from a mountain airport. I've always thought a Colemill 550 B55 Baron turbo normalized would be the ultimate mountain twin, if only they existed. Fantasy aside, does anyone know of a piston twin that will do it?

I got a ~15K service ceiling with OEI on the TwinStar. And it's only 170hp per side.
 
I really think you can get 700nm with extended IFR reserves with the 200 gallons you get with the big tank versions of the 401/402. As for OEI performance at max gross, I only have 100 hours in a 401, but I think it will do what he wants.

Ron-

My research says 300 fpm at 10K OEI, is that what you experienced?

I've also heard they have hight fuel burn 40+ in cruise?
 
I got a ~15K service ceiling with OEI on the TwinStar. And it's only 170hp per side.

When I flew the Twinstar with two guys and less than full fuel we were struggling to hold 3K. There's not a lot of ways to screw up the OEI procedure on a Twinstar, but I asked the instructor with me if that was normal he said it was.

I can't even imagine one holding 15K unless it was David by himself and 10 gallons of gas.
 
My King Air with -21s has 1,000 pound payload with fuel fuel. An STC is available that will increase that 700 pounds by adding 10 ply tires and some placards.

Best,

Dave

I bet that STC is pricey though.

In case you haven't heard it enough times today, the King Air is an awesome machine. Lots of them in the high country, obviously for a reason.

Maybe some day.
 
Haven't found anything for the KA C-90 cheap yet (g). Just pointing out what it will do so you have a point of comparison. Fuel burn averages about 60 per hour for a reasonable length trip where you get into the flight levels; higher for shorter trips or lower, but jet A is generally a bit cheaper than 100LL. It's not as fast as some other turbines, more like an SUV. Eight seats and good payload with fuel fuel.

I had the payload issue with the P baron. The KA will haul just about all that will fit into it within reason.

Best,

Dave
 
Was that with Mr. I-want-to-go-fast, though? Alex didn't seem to care about the speed, so would pulling back and running LOP change that equation enough in favor of the Chieftain?

When I flew the short body Navajo on economy cruise, it would burn 36 gallons an hour on block. That provided about 180 KTAS at <10,000 ft. I haven't had to do any fuel calculations in a while, but I recall something around 170 gallons total fuel. STCs existed for more. It would certainly be doable to do LOP at 180 KTAS and probably around 30 GPH (although I never played with it). So with that you'd get say 5 hours and change, which would get you your 700 nm and IFR reserves in a no-wind condition, but you'd be pushing it to make it for an alternate 50 nm away.

A short body Navajo (no wing lockers) with a Panther conversion (including intercoolers) might be a pretty decent option with the extra fuel. Make sure it doesn't have the wing lockers - something about those hurts climb performance significantly. Plus the short body Navajos are the lightest, and with the Panther conversion it's 350 HP a side. Gross weight there is 6500 lbs, and my recollection was that with full fuel you could hold 900 lbs in the one I was flying. OEI performance won't be as good as the T310R or 56TC, though. T310R grosses around 5400 lbs I tink with 335 hp a side - about 10% better on lb/HP.

I really think you can get 700nm with extended IFR reserves with the 200 gallons you get with the big tank versions of the 401/402. As for OEI performance at max gross, I only have 100 hours in a 401, but I think it will do what he wants.

It depends on what Alex is look for in terms of OEI performance. What I'm gathering is he's more or less looking for turboprop OEI performance from a piston twin, and a 401 won't do that. Alex, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The engines on a 401 can be pulled back like anything else. You can burn 40 GPH or you can burn 30 GPH. I'm not sure what you'd see for speed out of either.
 
Another thought on any of these planes and OEI performance in the mountains.

Alex, you live in a pretty flat area that's close to sea level. An engine failure leaves you with more options and a minimal amount of altitude you need to maintain. When you head to the mountains, you head west. By the time you hit the mountains, you will have burned off a decent amount of fuel en route, making your OEI performance in the event of a low/missed approach significantly improved.

Departing such airports, you're then heading east, and your home airport has many good options very close to it, meaning that you can depart with less fuel, and therefore less weight, also helping your performance.
 
It depends on what Alex is look for in terms of OEI performance. What I'm gathering is he's more or less looking for turboprop OEI performance from a piston twin, and a 401 won't do that. Alex, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The engines on a 401 can be pulled back like anything else. You can burn 40 GPH or you can burn 30 GPH. I'm not sure what you'd see for speed out of either.

Really this started out with a simple thought, could I take 4 real adults to Northern NM or Co and fly in harder IFR conditions than I currently do.

In my mind if you're going to pay the expenses of a twin it should be able to fly OEI out of those airports without hitting the rocks. I've also thought about runway analysis as suggested, I'm just not comfortable coming that close.

So to answer your question OEI performance IMO is really important. If I don't have it, I'll be on the ground on low IFR days, just like I am now.
 
Another thought on any of these planes and OEI performance in the mountains.

Alex, you live in a pretty flat area that's close to sea level. An engine failure leaves you with more options and a minimal amount of altitude you need to maintain. When you head to the mountains, you head west. By the time you hit the mountains, you will have burned off a decent amount of fuel en route, making your OEI performance in the event of a low/missed approach significantly improved.

Departing such airports, you're then heading east, and your home airport has many good options very close to it, meaning that you can depart with less fuel, and therefore less weight, also helping your performance.

I'm with you. Going I'm not worried about OEI as much, just having enough gas for an alternate.

Coming back I could leave light and stop East of the mountains and get more fuel, that just seems like a PITA, but perhaps necessary. I wouldn't push the fuel too much by coming back the whole way with min. fuel. If Dallas has weather you have the arrival plus possible holding, or vectors, to plan for.
 
I got a ~15K service ceiling with OEI on the TwinStar. And it's only 170hp per side.
But it won't make the clearway gradient, not the ODP gradient.

AlexB2000, you need to tell us what load and for what distance. My Seneca II will make the LINDZ departure at KASE if I mange weight correctly, OEI from 200 AGL.

As for the "runway analysis", any multi pilot needs to be able to do that, without an external company to hold your hand. That's just basic. :dunno:
 
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But it won't make the clearway gradient, not the ODP gradient.

AlexB2000, you need to tell us what load and for what distance. My Seneca II will make the LindZ departure at KASE if I mange wieght correctly, OEI.
Repost from earlier:

No fuel payload of 800 minimum, 1000 would be better. At least 700NM range with generous IFR reserves hauling those weights. I'm not a big stickler for speed with $6 gas, 180 would be fine in economy cruise.

I'd love to hear more about your loading coming out of Aspen.
 
So run the numbers on KASE in a C 421 at 700 undergross. Let's say you have 2,000 lbs useful. Will make it? How far can you go with 800 lbs in the cabin at 700 undergross? 500 lbs of fuel is about 75 minutes' fuel. OEI speed is 100 knots. in 10.8 minutes this AC has to make 6000 feet vertically. That's 555 fpm. Well can it do that? MAYBE. You can just make EGE or maybe RIL, maybe GJT if it's VFR. Then you take fuel and really go places.

In the Seneca II, if I depart with 600 lbs (my whole family) and 300 lbs of fuel, I am 600 undergross. I can survive the OEI departure gradient, and either line up for the return approach, or go to RIL, EGE, GJT or APA (the latter two are a fool's errand on one).

Climb gradient at 3870 lbs on one with the add-on wastegates is about 500-550 fpm. at 88 knots, the 18 nm from 8,000 to 14,000 just about takes 12.3 minutes, does it to LINDZ at 14,000.

It won't be fun, however. It's all about gross weight vs climb gradient, vs range.

So do the analysis, I think you need at LEAST a King Air 200 for your task.
 
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As a sim IP, my B-200 high-hot OEI (V1 cuts, S/E missed approaches) scenario was Cheyenne at 85F, max gross and 30.21 altimeter to make DA limits. Gradient was pitiful but legal. Leaving aux tanks empty gave us enough performance to think we might actually live to tell about the departures.

So run the numbers on KASE in a C 421 at 700 undergross. Let's say you have 2,000 lbs useful. Will make it? How far can you go with 800 lbs in the cabin at 700 undergross? 500 lbs of fuel is about 75 minutes' fuel. OEI speed is 100 knots. in 10.8 minutes this AC has to make 6000 feet vertically. That's 555 fpm. Well can it do that? MAYBE. You can just make EGE or maybe RIL, maybe GJT if it's VFR. Then you take fuel and really go places.

In the Seneca II, if I depart with 600 lbs (my whole family) and 300 lbs of fuel, I am 600 undergross. I can survive the OEI departure gradient, and either line up for the return approach, or go to RIL, EGE, GJT or APA (the latter two are a fool's errand on one).

Climb gradient at 3870 lbs on one with the add-on wastegates is about 500-550 fpm. at 88 knots, the 18 nm from 8,000 to 14,000 just about takes 12.3 minutes, does it to LINDZ at 14,000.

It won't be fun, however. It's all about gross weight vs climb gradient, vs range.

So do the analysis, I think you need at LEAST a King Air 200 for your task.
 
Almost every airplane, including jets, need to be less than max gross takeoff weight when coming out of a high altitude airport, especially in the summer. Also, when you start talking about climb rates around 200 fpm remember that there are often downdrafts far stronger than that.
 
When I flew the Twinstar with two guys and less than full fuel we were struggling to hold 3K. There's not a lot of ways to screw up the OEI procedure on a Twinstar, but I asked the instructor with me if that was normal he said it was.

I can't even imagine one holding 15K unless it was David by himself and 10 gallons of gas.

??
What model did you fly?? :confused:
Sounds like you were TEI (Two Engines Inoperative).


But it won't make the clearway gradient, not the ODP gradient.

Exactly what altitude are we talking about?
Yeah it wont be able to fly an ODB from a 10K airport but most mountain airports are much lower. For example at 7K I can do around 200FPM OEI.

If you like I can post my OEI climb performance chart.
 
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Really this started out with a simple thought, could I take 4 real adults to Northern NM or Co and fly in harder IFR conditions than I currently do.

In my mind if you're going to pay the expenses of a twin it should be able to fly OEI out of those airports without hitting the rocks. I've also thought about runway analysis as suggested, I'm just not comfortable coming that close.

So to answer your question OEI performance IMO is really important. If I don't have it, I'll be on the ground on low IFR days, just like I am now.

And that comes down to your risk tolerance. If you want to have transport category performance and always be able to make the DP in an OEI situation, that is a tall order with your desired loading and fuel.

I'm with you. Going I'm not worried about OEI as much, just having enough gas for an alternate.

Coming back I could leave light and stop East of the mountains and get more fuel, that just seems like a PITA, but perhaps necessary. I wouldn't push the fuel too much by coming back the whole way with min. fuel. If Dallas has weather you have the arrival plus possible holding, or vectors, to plan for.

Comes back to risk tolerance. If the thought is that an OEI situation resulting in a lack of sufficient climb gradient is never acceptable, then you're likely looking at a fuel stop to get the weight where you want it with the stated loading, or else a change in your risk criteria, or telling your friends to take commercial. As you point out, this would be the primary advantage for you stepping up to a twin anyway.

Some folks have chosen a 421 for loading like yours because of the higher useful load. I think the T310R would probably still give better OEI performance (power to weight ratio is more favorable), but maybe not after reducing weight on the 421 enough.

For us it's a bit different. Most of the times our departure obstacles aren't too terrible, but there are significant en-route advantages to having a twin. Things like going over the North Atlantic, Canadian wilderness, Gulf of Mexico, or Pennsylvania all look like places you don't want to make a forced landing. So I don't mind a departure at gross and accepting that I'll need new pants if I have an engine failure and it might not be fun, but that OEI I should be able to get back. Losing an engine en-route is much easier.
 
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Here is a DA42 V1 OEI climb test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlLWPUD-CXU
It's a bit better than the NG, unfortunately I don't have a similar video for the NG.

I flew the original engines, not the NG. I tried really hard and just couldn't get anywhere near the OEI performance of that video. Maybe that bird had some problems, I don't know, it just wasn't impressive.

Here is the thread discussing that:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47719
 
I flew the original engines, not the NG. I tried really hard and just couldn't get anywhere near the OEI performance of that video. Maybe that bird had some problems, I don't know, it just wasn't impressive.

Here is the thread discussing that:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47719

Oh well there is the problem. The 42 with Thielert engines is just rubbish (for many reasons, I'd rather not hijack this thread to explain why, however I can if you guys are interested), basically reliability and performance weren't really there. Then after Thielert was not allowed to make engines any more, Diamond was left with an airframe and no engine, so they just stuck the IO-360 it in real quick and put it on the market. Well that fixed the reliability issues but performance was still nothing special. It wasn't until the Austro engines came out that the TwinStar because a really good airplane.


BTW I completely forgot about that thread, now that you posted it I remember.
 
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Climb gradient at 3870 lbs on one with the add-on wastegates is about 500-550 fpm. at 88 knots, the 18 nm from 8,000 to 14,000 just about takes 12.3 minutes, does it to LINDZ at 14,000.

It won't be fun, however. It's all about gross weight vs climb gradient, vs range.

So do the analysis, I think you need at LEAST a King Air 200 for your task.

The tough part about OEI coming out of Aspen on the LINDZ8 is the initial climb to 10K at a minimum 465' per NM.

So 88 knots = 1.46 NM per minute X 465' per NM = 679 ft. per minute.

Your OEI performance is really good, it just doesn't seem like it will meet the DP you mentioned.

If I could afford a 200 that really would make all this a lot easier.
 
And that comes down to your risk tolerance. If you want to have transport category performance and always be able to make the DP in an OEI situation, that is a tall order with your desired loading and fuel.



Comes back to risk tolerance. If the thought is that an OEI situation resulting in a lack of sufficient climb gradient is never acceptable, then you're likely looking at a fuel stop to get the weight where you want it with the stated loading, or else a change in your risk criteria, or telling your friends to take commercial. As you point out, this would be the primary advantage for you stepping up to a twin anyway.

Some folks have chosen a 421 for loading like yours because of the higher useful load. I think the T310R would probably still give better OEI performance (power to weight ratio is more favorable), but maybe not after reducing weight on the 421 enough.

For us it's a bit different. Most of the times our departure obstacles aren't too terrible, but there are significant en-route advantages to having a twin. Things like going over the North Atlantic, Canadian wilderness, Gulf of Mexico, or Pennsylvania all look like places you don't want to make a forced landing. So I don't mind a departure at gross and accepting that I'll need new pants if I have an engine failure and it might not be fun, but that OEI I should be able to get back. Losing an engine en-route is much easier.

My risk tolerance is low I guess. I just won't leave the mountains in low IFR unless I know I can make the DP. I leave IFR all the time, I just make sure I have high enough ceilings so I can better manage an emergency.

I'll do some more homework on a T310R. Logic says power to weight ratio is what it's all about, so that would be the place to start.
 
My risk tolerance is low I guess. I just won't leave the mountains in low IFR unless I know I can make the DP. I leave IFR all the time, I just make sure I have high enough ceilings so I can better manage an emergency.

I'll do some more homework on a T310R. Logic says power to weight ratio is what it's all about, so that would be the place to start.

Well, the real point of a twin to me is having that second engine, otherwise you can buy a nice single. If the second engine doesn't do what you need, then there's not much point. As I said if we lived in the mountains, we'd probably need to consider an upgrade (or a downgrade). One friend of mine pointed out that in the mountains you pretty much need to be happy with the performance and safety of a piston single or be willing to make the upgrade to a turbine twin. Different planes for different missions.

Power to weight is what it's all about. And again which airports you're looking at needing to deal with. A 200 would make it easier, so would a G-V.
 
My friend who hangars on the north end of your ramp in Taos flies a Ram 340 with mains only and usually solo. His performance is good but his respect for mountain weather may be unsurpassed. He says the weather has won every fight with an airplane that he's seen in his 20+ years in the mountains.

My risk tolerance is low I guess. I just won't leave the mountains in low IFR unless I know I can make the DP. I leave IFR all the time, I just make sure I have high enough ceilings so I can better manage an emergency.

I'll do some more homework on a T310R. Logic says power to weight ratio is what it's all about, so that would be the place to start.
 
My friend who hangars on the north end of your ramp in Taos flies a Ram 340 with mains only and usually solo. His performance is good but his respect for mountain weather may be unsurpassed. He says the weather has won every fight with an airplane that he's seen in his 20+ years in the mountains.

I hear you and fully agree. Taos is one of the "easier" mountain airports, but still challenging as anything on certain days. Via PM we were just discussing it and I believe best case it might only give me about another 5 flyable days a year. Even then the Taos DP takes you right into the heaviest icing in the valley so you better have some real performance if you fly it.

This discussion has also stirred some soul searching on my part also. Even with the mystical super twin, I'm not sure I would change my operation. I like leaving with a reasonable ceiling, finding a hole, climbing VFR to get on top, and picking up IFR on the way up to class A. Maybe we all just tend to do what has worked well in the past, so who knows if I'm just doomed to be too conservative.
 
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You're also talking about some of the most challenging weather in the country. I'm not sure it's being super conservative, more just good ADM.
 
But it won't make the clearway gradient, not the ODP gradient.

AlexB2000, you need to tell us what load and for what distance. My Seneca II will make the LINDZ departure at KASE if I mange weight correctly, OEI from 200 AGL.

As for the "runway analysis", any multi pilot needs to be able to do that, without an external company to hold your hand. That's just basic. :dunno:

I think you're not understanding what companies like APG and Jeppesen do. For example, the alternate IFR departure procedure at ASE effectively eliminates the obstacle clearance considerations departing KASE and turns it into just another airport, albeit one at 7800' msl with a 8000' runway. It's what allows the airlines to operate out of there. The APD is an emergency procedure to be used in the event of an engine failure. I took a moment and superimposed the one that APG provided us one our last trip to ASE. There is more to it than this, but you can see how flying that arc will keep you out of the rocks. This procedure is only applicable for IFR departures in IMC. In VMC, if you loose an engine, you're going to still "see and avoid" the rocks and hang a left turn at the river and follow it down the valley to GJC.

AspenEscapeRoute.jpg
 
I think you're not understanding what companies like APG and Jeppesen do. For example, the alternate IFR departure procedure at ASE effectively eliminates the obstacle clearance considerations departing KASE and turns it into just another airport, albeit one at 7800' msl with a 8000' runway. It's what allows the airlines to operate out of there. The APD is an emergency procedure to be used in the event of an engine failure. I took a moment and superimposed the one that APG provided us one our last trip to ASE. There is more to it than this, but you can see how flying that arc will keep you out of the rocks. This procedure is only applicable for IFR departures in IMC. In VMC, if you loose an engine, you're going to still "see and avoid" the rocks and hang a left turn at the river and follow it down the valley to GJC.

AspenEscapeRoute.jpg

So how does that work with ATC? Also, did someone fly that in VMC to verify it before you used it for real? Last APG charges about $1,000 per aircraft per year, is that right?
 
So how does that work with ATC? Also, did someone fly that in VMC to verify it before you used it for real? Last APG charges about $1,000 per aircraft per year, is that right?
It's an emergency procedure. As PIC you can deviate as necessary for safety of flight. It's also something that you need to be trained in and be ready to switch to in the event of an engine failure. However, it's what enables the airlines to operate out of ASE on IFR departures in IMC. It is also used by savvy 135 and 91 operators as well. There aren't very many aircraft that can meet the climb gradient requirements OEI without a serious reduction in takeoff weight. Significantly reducing those weight restrictions justifies the cost of the service. Of course, there are many other airports out there where these techniques come in handy. The last time I checked with APG it cost us $75 per month for their services. We flew in and out of ASE hundreds of times over the years and it made economic sense to us, but of course your mileage may vary.
 
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It's a neat service, without a doubt.

Alex and I were talking about this. My SOP is to know the area VFR (at least to some extent) and have a planned alternate route with TAWS to guide me. SV would also be very good if installed.
 
It's an emergency procedure. As PIC you can deviate as necessary for safety of flight. It's also something that you need to be trained in and be ready to switch to in the event of an engine failure. However, it's what enables the airlines to operate out of ASE on IFR departures in IMC. It is also used by savvy 135 and 91 operators as well. There aren't very many aircraft that can meet the climb gradient requirements OEI without a serious reduction in takeoff weight. Significantly reducing those weight restrictions justifies the cost of the service. Of course, there are many other airports out there where these techniques come in handy. The last time I checked with APG it cost us $75 per month for their services. We flew in and out of ASE hundreds of times over the years and it made economic sense to us, but of course your mileage may vary.

So you're on the climbout on R163 and lose one. You declare and turn hard left to the 10 DME arc. I guess that works, but it seems like the same thing you'd do with just terrain and/ or SVT. I thought this was some kind of thing you fly from the beginning.
 
Locals say you need to hold 300' AGL off the end of ASE to fly down the river to Rifle. I've never tried it.
 
So you're on the climbout on R163 and lose one. You declare and turn hard left to the 10 DME arc. I guess that works, but it seems like the same thing you'd do with just terrain and/ or SVT. I thought this was some kind of thing you fly from the beginning.
Nope. The published departure gradient is based upon all engines operating. The alternate procedure is an emergency procedure that you'd switch to in the event of an engine loss. However, the regs (Part 121 and 135 operators) and common sense (Part 91 operators) tell you that you've got to have the performance to keep your nose out of the rocks. The alternate IFR departure procedure is essentially the IFR version of following the Roaring Fork down the valley. If you're always going to be departing in VFR conditions it's not necessary. When all engines are operating and it's VFR, the question becomes "At today's takeoff weight and OAT can we make the required climb gradient with all engines operating." If it's IMC you've still got to meet the climb gradient, but if you can't see the terrain how are you going to avoid it? You either have to out climb it or you've got to have a route that you can fly to avoid it if you lose an engine.
 
Ron-

My research says 300 fpm at 10K OEI, is that what you experienced?
Climb rate OEI in a C-401/402 should be the same at 10K as it is at SL since the engines are full rated to well above that. Gradient won't be as good, since TAS at Vyse is higher, but it still should be enough for 200 ft/nm.

I've also heard they have hight fuel burn 40+ in cruise?
High cruise, maybe, but not at 180 KTAS. I'm thinking we burned about 32-35 gph in cruise, but it's been a long time.
 
It depends on what Alex is look for in terms of OEI performance. What I'm gathering is he's more or less looking for turboprop OEI performance from a piston twin, and a 401 won't do that.
Nor will any other piston twin short of something certified under Part 25 or the CAB predecessor to that (like a DC-3).
 
Nor will any other piston twin short of something certified under Part 25 or the CAB predecessor to that (like a DC-3).

There are some upgraded piston twins mentioned that will do much better.
 
Nope. The published departure gradient is based upon all engines operating. The alternate procedure is an emergency procedure that you'd switch to in the event of an engine loss. However, the regs (Part 121 and 135 operators) and common sense (Part 91 operators) tell you that you've got to have the performance to keep your nose out of the rocks. The alternate IFR departure procedure is essentially the IFR version of following the Roaring Fork down the valley. If you're always going to be departing in VFR conditions it's not necessary. When all engines are operating and it's VFR, the question becomes "At today's takeoff weight and OAT can we make the required climb gradient with all engines operating." If it's IMC you've still got to meet the climb gradient, but if you can't see the terrain how are you going to avoid it? You either have to out climb it or you've got to have a route that you can fly to avoid it if you lose an engine.

Thanks, learned something today.
 
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