Piston Aircraft with 200 kts cruise?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Fearless Tower, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. Geico266

    Geico266 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I certainly did not declare the RV-10 as the perfect plane. I suggested it should be added to the planes being considered in the OP's mission outlined in post #1.

    The RV-10 fits the mission. What purpose would it serve POA to exclude a perfectly suited aircraft for consideration?
     
  2. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    You missed the memo! The baby is approaching 4 months old now. We took him on a short trip for a $250 hamburger, then did a longer trip going to Omaha for Thanksgiving. He did great on the trip to Omaha, 4 hours out 3 hours back. We'll see how he does for Newfoundland next month. Loading and unloading takes longer, but still quicker than loading and unloading dogs. ;)

    I'll report back in 20 years. My friends who are more like me seem to think it'll be fine from their experiences with their (now grown and out of the house) kids, so I'll choose to take the optimistic view until I have reason to believe otherwise. We're going to have a plane anyway for the foreseeable future.

    Below is his first ground school lesson at 1 week old:

    [​IMG]
     

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  3. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Looks a lot like dad flying a long trip.

     
  4. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Because it fails the test of perfectly suited for everybody but the guy who's trying to sell them? Helloooo.

     
  5. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    You declare an RV as perfectly suitable for every mission, regardless of how far off it is from what is asked.

    The original request was for 200 kts, not 200 mph. He mentioned a 310, which doesn't quite do 200 kts, so it's worth discussing whether or not that works and under what conditions. 200 mph is 25 kts below the required speed. Taking a mission requirement, changing it, and then declaring that your plane meets the new requirements.

    Saying that an RV-10 is "perfectly suited" is, at best, a stretch. Even I wouldn't say that a 310 (faster, larger, more capable) isn't perfectly suited, I just said it works for us and explained why. If it works for you, though, that's excellent.
     
  6. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I can't curl up into a ball quite that tiny anymore.
     
  7. Geico266

    Geico266 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The OP stated the 200 knots is "rough number" ... and he was looking for something to make the trip in a day. The RV-10 is certainly a candidate for the described mission.
     
  8. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He looks like a candidate for a soft warm tummy.

     
  9. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up Shut up. Your extreme zealous attitude is becoming a joke now. I will never EVER buy an RV purely because of you; I hope you are aware there are others that feel this way.


    As for the OP I'd like to know how important weather busting is before I throw out suggestions. Whether or not cabin class, amount of engines, and turbine are options as well. What is your priority comfort, cost or ability?

    Once more and completely random... I LOVE your plane (and the entire cessna 180 fleet). I will NOT however say it is the perfect plane for every mission *cough* Gecko *cough* :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  10. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I'd say so. We'll make that happen someday, hopefully soon.
     
  11. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nor do I, which is why I don't think I've ever recommended it to anyone else other than a passing reference to the fact that I enjoy it. But it's a good example of why I don't own a Shed Hawk. It does everything I want and need to do, and I like the trade-offs compared to all the others. I'm occasionally tempted by a nice 195, but then go back and look at what I've got and realize it's the perfect plane for me.

    Geico should recuse himself from any discussions about airplanes and suitability. This site is for pilots, not dealers.
     
  12. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I don't know what's worse...
    Geico and his RVs are the most perfectest airplane ever or
    Kent and his iWhatevers are the most perfectest electronics ever?

    :D
     
  13. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Trim-up, engage autopilot, tune destination ATIS, wake up when you hear "...advise on initial contact..." :D

    ---

    That kid sure does have short hair!
     
  14. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Two problems with that:

    1) I almost never fly VFR

    2) I fly a plane with a Century III. This isn't a KFC300

    We'll ignore the fact that I'd never do that anyway for the obvious other "bad idea" reasons. :)
     
  15. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Then amend Spike's instructions

    Trim-up, engage autopilot, tune destination ATIS, squawk 7600, wake up when you hear "...advise on initial contact..."

    :D :D
     
  16. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Looks like he's sleeping in class... :D
     
  17. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Folks, how about we stop the personal sniping and kinda, sorta, discuss the issue at hand. Make the discussion about the topic (even if it drifts) rather than the person....
     
  18. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Sounds pretty similar to the 310. I'd be curious as to your fuel burns and power settings doing that, and how they compare with what we're getting now with the overhauled/improved 520s.
     
  19. Skylane81E

    Skylane81E Final Approach

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    Thank you
     
  20. Geico266

    Geico266 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I've been trying to get the back to the OP's point. Thank you.
     
  21. Tony_Scarpelli

    Tony_Scarpelli Pattern Altitude

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    That is true but you got room for a nice console with a coffee cup holder.:)
     
  22. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    Aww.. A little puppy...:D..
    Cute kid.. They must have mixed up the babies in the baby ward..:yes:..

    I LOVE the itty bitty Cloud Nine shirt..:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Next pic may I suggest you slip a 3/8" wrench in his hand, smear a bit of grease on his forehead and 0-1 mic in the other hand....

    Congrats to you and Laurie...:yes::yes:.
     
  23. Cmercado

    Cmercado Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Agree.... Nice plane BTW.... Feels like a real man SUV:thumbsup:
     
  24. Jim Logajan

    Jim Logajan En-Route

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    I had not heard of the Meyers 200 (also sold as the Aero Commander 200) either until I read "Odyssey - A Daring Transatlantic Journey" by Susan Oliver. In its day the plane was flown by a number of celebrities and set some speed records. It seems comparable to the Bonanza and the Bellanca Super Viking.

    Ironically for the kind of distance involved you should probably be looking at long range tanks first and speed second. Fuel stops are the real time killer on long distance flights. Here is one article on the subject that addresses that point (and compares the economies of several fast airplanes, few of which seem to have the hauling capacity needed, though):

    http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/air...he-need-for-speed.html?tmpl=component&print=1
     
  25. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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  26. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I dunno man, if someone asked me what I thought they should get for a serious video-editing machine, I sure as hell wouldn't tell them "iPad." That seems to be what Geico is doing here...
     
  27. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As for the mission, KORF-KPHX is 1758nm. Given how my alertness noticeably drops after 9ish hours of flying in a day, I concur with the OP that 200 KTAS - Not mph, not kph, not marketing numbers, but TRUE airspeed - is a bare minimum. Splitting the trip in half via 5M5, winds aloft westbound today are going to make this a LONG trip in any airplane - We're not talking anything normally aspirated here, and the winds are going to take away any advantage of the turbo. (Headwinds for that leg today are showing as 21 knots at 4,000, 36 at 6, 48 at 8, 58 at 10, 65 at 12, 70 at 14, 76 at 16, 83 at FL180, 87 at 20, 90 at 22, and 93 at 24.) So, this is gonna be a long trip, slogging along down low at a groundspeed of maybe 160 at best, making the first leg a 5.5-hour ordeal.

    For the 2nd half of the trip, the lowest IFR altitude for a direct flight is 14,000 and winds today are more favorable, varying from 17 knots of headwind at 14 to 21 at FL240. So, here we'll actually get something out of flying high, and the 2nd half would be about 4.3.

    I sure wouldn't want to try that in an RV-10 today. Too long of a day.
     
  28. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    You must be a glass half empty kinda guy.......................

    Going the "other" way you could almost non stop it..:yes:;)
     
  29. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    True... Maybe even in an RV-10. ;) :rofl:
     
  30. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    :lol::lol::lol:.

    Funny guy....... But you realize Geico and I stick together... it's the "experimental" in us ya know....:rolleyes::wink2:
     
  31. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    But it would be an iSomething ;)
     
  32. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    Well, I guess the maturity level of this post is age-appropriate.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  33. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    If I was going to be doing a trip like that, I would sure as hell want something faster than a Mooney. Seeing as how my mooney and the RV10 are probably very close in speed (RV10 is probably a touch faster)

    If I was gonna do a trip like that a lot, I would look at a Lancair IVP or a Meridian (I'm trying to convince my dad he needs to buy a Meridian so he can commute back and forth to the house in Oregon when he buys it)


    So far trying to talk him into a plane that costs more than twice as much as the house has been slow going, but I think I'm making progress.
     
  34. stratobee

    stratobee Cleared for Takeoff

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    Sorry - just saw my earlier post on page 4, so this is double post.

    Do not know what happened to my lengthy response to OP's thoughts on the AC 685, but I'll try again. I'm a Twin Commander owner myself and love the aircrafts to bits. I now fly an old vintage 520, but am looking to step up to something more capable and the choices are 685 or Aerostar for me, both Ted Smith designs. However, one needs to know the shortcomings of the 685 and operate it within its parameters. I'm a longtime member in the Commander Group and have access to some of the brightest minds in regards to Aero Commanders and here's the nitty gritty on the 685:

    PROS:
    1. They have more range than any other twin engine piston. You can easily go 1500nm in them with their huge 327gal tanks. And as you know, range equals speed on long trips. Anywhere in the Continental US with a maximum of one stop.

    2. They're also probably the quietest twin ever made because the engines sit far back, far out on the wing, are geared and have a huge ice shield protecting the cabin from ice.

    3. The 685 is also cavernous inside and you can fit insane amounts of gear, luggage, people etc.

    4. Rugged - these are essentially 690's with piston engines, so built tough.

    5. De-iced and fully certified for known icing, none of that halfway stuff you find on all other twins.

    CONS:
    1. As mentioned, they're 690's with piston engines, so they're susceptible to almost all the SB's the 690 airframe has. This means a 36 month recurring spar inspection (unless you eliminate with costly STC), a 5 year teardown and inspection of the gear etc.

    2. On top of this you have highly strung geared engines that they pull every inch of power out of. Now, I fly geared engines myself and the gearing is not the problem - that will last way beyond TBO if you fly them correctly (positive drive), but because they pull so much power from them you'll find that you'll probably have to swap some cylinders before TBO. O/H is expensive - plan on at least $50K/engine.

    3. Also, this is a big and heavy airframe and it will burn 45gals/hr doing 200kts, whereas an Aerostar will do 25gals/hr LOP doing the same. Just so you are aware. Sure, one can pull back and get down to 30-35gals/hr, but then you'll be traveling as fast as any of the smaller twins burning less.

    4. Turbos are hard to come by new, but can still be overhauled.

    5. Known for being rwy hoggers. The saying "if you can see the end of the rwy, it's too short" was uttered about 685's. But if you're not at gross weight and not too high, they perform pretty good. Book says 2700ft takeoff at gross, but go-stop distance would have to be in excess of 4300ft.

    6. All the other Commanders excel on grass and gravel, but this is probably the single model that doesn't. It's not that the landing gear or design can't take it, it just needs a bit too much rwy and sits a little too close to the ground and will get belly rash.

    7. Not a mountain flying airplane. Lose an engine on takeoff at high DA, and you have your work cut out for you.

    So, to summarise. It's not an airplane for anyone who isn't realistic about it. It's basically like having an underpowered turbine with slightly cheaper engines. It's an extreme long range cruiser made to fly in the flighlevels and never stop for gas, going between comfortable FBO's and long tarmac rwy's. It's not a bush plane like the other Commanders. But if you're fine with that, and if you can afford to keep them flying, then you have a wonderful, quiet businessliner on your hands.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  35. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    The good news is I might have a house for sale in Jackson Hole.
    The bad news is it costs twice as much as the Meridian...
     
  36. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Why would you try to talk him into a Meridian when you could get a Cheyenne II for $400k? MU-2s are around the same price, Commander 690s around $600k.
     
  37. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    He's got his heart set on Oregon, and I doubt we could afford a Meridian or a house that costs twice as much as one, atleast as long as we don't want to make some serious lifestyle adjustments.
     
  38. Jim Logajan

    Jim Logajan En-Route

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    The tough requirement is trying to travel ~1800 nm in one "day" with a family. Being willing to split the trip into, say, one "full" 8 hour flight time day and one 4 hour "half" day drops the speed requirement down to around 150 kts for that distance. (Or 9 and 3, or 6 and 6, or whatever makes sense for that trip. Me, I'd just spend two days of 6 hours in the air trying to fly that distance in a 150 kt plane.)

    Since HP requirement is proportional to the cube of the speed (and energy/fuel costs are proportional to the square of the speed) given the same drag coefficients, one should be careful with speed requirements.

    Even at 200 kts you are looking at 9 hours of flying (vs 12 hours at 150 kts.) Add in time to travel to and from airports, fueling, loading, preflight, and fuel, food, and bathroom stops, and could have an infinitely fast airplane and still take three or more hours to make that trip from your house door!

    Since the OP (like most such people who ponder these things) is somehow surviving without a 200 kt airplane, the question is what aspect of an overnight stay somewhere along the way makes that a complete non-starter?
     
  39. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I would be clothes shopping at Goodwill and eating lots of Ramen. I think anything turbine powered just isn't gonna happen in the near future. 5 or 10 years maybe, but my dad wants to get settled in retirement before anything like that.

    I always have liked the way the Commanders look though, and from what I've read someone my size wouldn't have any trouble flying in one..
    http://www.controller.com/listingsd...OMMANDER-690B/1978-COMMANDER-690B/1268123.htm
     
  40. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Jim makes a point. Since you more or less pass near ADS on your way from VA to PHX, I'd consider stopping in ADS for the night and see the nice folks there. We are considering similar coming home from Newfoundland next month - might stop in the Boston area to see some friends. Makes the flight home (with usually strong headwinds) more tolerable.