Piston Aircraft with 200 kts cruise?

Ted DuPuis said:
(edited to limit Bruce's quote to what was relevant for the below)

Well, Dr. Bruce, you know I respect your opinion, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Okay.
I'm at 2,000 hours pretty much on the dot, and about 1,500 of those are in naturally aspirated piston twins. For a while I was doing trips of the same duration as what the OP is discussing on a monthly basis. For that matter, over Christmas I flew to Belize and back in about a 40 hour period - came out to about 1700 nm each way. That was 19 hours of flying, 9 hours of sleep, and a few hours to cover being on the ground and eating dinner. I flew from LA to NYC in one day in the Aztec.
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So Ted, what's the latitude of Belize? I don't think it's in the 35-40s, IIRC. I mean, I've been to South America in the Seneca, but that was not with family. It hardly counts.

When you are ten years older and are hauling kids (and they'll get to the "carry the kitchen sink" age), we'll discuss it again, then. Take your numbers and quadruple them. This is from a guy who used to fly 24 hour patrols and log 9000 nm at a throw.

It is NOT the same as flying dogs.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Now, whether or not the family will tolerate it just depends on the specifics and attitude.
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Right, but I think you are glossing over the fact that you are married to a pilot who is doing it for a living and is used to long days. So your family doesn't really look like the average family. :)
 
bbchien said:
So Ted, what's the latitude of Belize? I don't think it's in the 35-40s, IIRC.
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16N. You know very well the magnitude of the trips I've done, though over all sorts of latitudes, up as far as 53N.

When you are ten years older and are hauling kids (and they'll get to the "carry the kitchen sink" age), we'll discuss it again, then. Take your numbers and quadruple them. This is from a guy who used to fly 24 hour patrols and log 9000 nm at a throw.

It is NOT the same as flying dogs.
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It should be blatantly obvious to anyone that a trip I'm doing flying solo isn't something you'd expect to replicate with kids time wise, and that it's on an extreme end. The point isn't to say "I do this solo so you should be able to do it with your kids," but to make the point on the extreme side for reference, since so many folks on here seem to think it's just impossible.

The previous owner of the 310 did a yearly ski trip with it from NJ to Colorado and his family. "This is how we travel."

If anything, flying the 310 makes it much easier to pack the kitchen sink. Two wing lockers, lots of baggage room behind the 2nd row, the FBO brings the rental car right up to the plane when you land...

But, to each their own. It's not for everyone, and I fully respect that.
 
Everskyward said:
Right, but I think you are glossing over the fact that you are married to a pilot who is doing it for a living and is used to long days. So your family doesn't really look like the average family. :)
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Perhaps I'm not stating it loudly enough, so I will state it louder. :)

Being married to an accomplished pilot (far more accomplished than me) certainly makes it easier for us to do long trips. But I have friends with families for whom dad is the only pilot, mom has varying levels between liking flying and hating flying, and piston GA is how they travel. Dad says "This is how we go places," mom knows it makes dad happy so that's what they do.

Maybe my friends are weird. Would make sense since they're my friends and I'm weird. :)
 
Geico266 said:
They do apply to everyone. That is why Pipestral has won $4million in NASA sponsored CAFE challenges over the years. The plane is for real, the numbers are for real.
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Don't misunderstand. I am very hopeful they can make it. It would be a fantastic machine. I'm just not holding my breath. Too many disappointments over the last 35 years watching the industry.
 
Everskyward said:
Right, but I think you are glossing over the fact that you are married to a pilot who is doing it for a living and is used to long days. So your family doesn't really look like the average family. :)
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Bingo, every family is different.

Angie and I would go coast to coast in the 182. She doesn't want to have to hand over her side arm and sleeps anyway and I like to fly. 1200 miles in two hops was no problem and further is do able.

However we are young, no kids and getting there is part of the trip so 130kts is just fine

(Well everyone wants faster:lol: )
 
Getting there is half the fun in GA. All this dreaming about planes none of you own is pretty silly. Listening to actual trips of owners who actually fly, and being respectful of their choices would be a huge improvement to POA over the current group of know it alls.

Leave the name calling and personal attacks out of the conversation and more people would contribute.

:yes:


Good night!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
But I have friends with families for whom dad is the only pilot, mom has varying levels between liking flying and hating flying, and piston GA is how they travel. Dad says "This is how we go places," mom knows it makes dad happy so that's what they do.
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Seems like we've heard from mom on another thread. :D
 
Everskyward said:
Right, and in this thread it's Fearless Tower's family which counts.
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Exactly. He's the only one who can answer that, despite what many in the thread seem to think.
 
Everskyward said:
Right, but it's probably helpful to hear all the cons as well as the pros.
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Fully agreed. I think it's pretty safe to say we've gotten all viewpoints covered in this thread.
 
gismo said:
My family has been willing to make 1200-1500 nm trips as long as I keep the legs in the 3-4hr range.
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Fuel wise, can your Baron comfortably do much further? I never liked doing more than 4:30 in the Aztec, and in the 310 I really should be on the ground by 4 hours anyway. Doubly so with the overhauled 520s and higher power settings we're running with them.
 
Odds are he needs a twin, a cabin class is probably best.

Sure as small as a 210 or Bo will meet the 200kts and 4 people, but if this is a dedicated traveling machine go for the twin, especially in this market.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If anything, flying the 310 makes it much easier to pack the kitchen sink. Two wing lockers, lots of baggage room behind the 2nd row, the FBO brings the rental car right up to the plane when you land...

But, to each their own. It's not for everyone, and I fully respect that.
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So why do you think I have a Seneca, for living in the middle of the continent? :) :dunno:
 
bbchien said:
So why do you think I have a Seneca, for living in the middle of the continent? :) :dunno:
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On this point we vehemently agree. :)

Love driving our car up to the hangar, and having the rental car driven right up to the plane when we land.
 
Geico266 said:
Getting there is half the fun in GA. All this dreaming about planes none of you own is pretty silly. Listening to actual trips of owners who actually fly, and being respectful of their choices would be a huge improvement to POA over the current group of know it alls.

Leave the name calling and personal attacks out of the conversation and more people would contribute.

:yes:


Good night!
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ROFL Whatever you say, kettle. :rolleyes:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
(edited to limit Bruce's quote to what was relevant for the below)

Well, Dr. Bruce, you know I respect your opinion, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm at 2,000 hours pretty much on the dot, and about 1,500 of those are in naturally aspirated piston twins. For a while I was doing trips of the same duration as what the OP is discussing on a monthly basis. For that matter, over Christmas I flew to Belize and back in about a 40 hour period - came out to about 1700 nm each way. That was 19 hours of flying, 9 hours of sleep, and a few hours to cover being on the ground and eating dinner. I flew from LA to NYC in one day in the Aztec.

The number of times I've had to cancel for weather I can count on one hand and have fingers left over, including crossing no shortage of fronts, often more than one in a day. Jet-A isn't required.

Now, whether or not the family will tolerate it just depends on the specifics and attitude. I know many families for whom 10 hour car trips in a day is no big deal. My wife and I both used to be honorary participants of the Cannonball Run (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonball_Baker_Sea-To-Shining-Sea_Memorial_Trophy_Dash for anyone who doesn't understand the reference), so spending 10 hours in a plane in a day is no big deal, either. For many families, it's not fun, and that does drive those who can afford it to typically purchase a cabin class plane so the family can happily sit in back. OTOH, I have friends who've told their families "This is how we get places" and leave it at that.

Jet-A simply isn't required most of the time. In all my trips, only one time did I call my boss and say "I need to borrow a turbine" and we took the Cheyenne. Is it nicer to have extra speed? You bet. And if that's the case and the OP can consider a single, he could consider a Lancair IV-P. But that's another can of worms...
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It depends on what you are comfortable with. You and I have no problem flying all day, we enjoy it. Your passengers are dogs they enjoy anything.;) The issue usually comes with family members. I know plenty of families that travel in a 421, way more room than you get in an airliner and they play games and have fun along the way and no TSA or lost luggage. Granted, a jet will get you there faster, but a 421 will still do it on a budget that more can afford.
 
Henning said:
It depends on what you are comfortable with. You and I have no problem flying all day, we enjoy it. Your passengers are dogs they enjoy anything.;) The issue usually comes with family members. I know plenty of families that travel in a 421, way more room than you get in an airliner and they play games and have fun along the way and no TSA or lost luggage. Granted, a jet will get you there faster, but a 421 will still do it on a budget that more can afford.
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Yep, as I said in what you quoted from me:

Ted DuPuis said:
Now, whether or not the family will tolerate it just depends on the specifics and attitude. I know many families for whom 10 hour car trips in a day is no big deal. My wife and I both used to be honorary participants of the Cannonball Run (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonball_Baker_Sea-To-Shining-Sea_Memorial_Trophy_Dash for anyone who doesn't understand the reference), so spending 10 hours in a plane in a day is no big deal, either. For many families, it's not fun, and that does drive those who can afford it to typically purchase a cabin class plane so the family can happily sit in back. OTOH, I have friends who've told their families "This is how we get places" and leave it at that.
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:)
 
Ted, I think everyone gets what you mean.

But I can also see many people looking at this statement and wondering how that's going to work out in the long run.

OTOH, I have friends who've told their families "This is how we get places" and leave it at that.
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Everskyward said:
Ted, I think everyone gets what you mean.

But I can also see many people looking at this statement and wondering how that's going to work out in the long run.
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Seeing as two of the friends I can think of who've had that attitude have been married 30-40 years with planes and kids most of that time period, seems to be working just fine for them.
 
And I submit that over time you will learn that it ain't over until the lady sings. When the song is "no, dear, that's the way we used to go places" all bets are off for the GA ride. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when any of them tried to sell her on the new ride being built in somebody's shed. But anyway, when I was your age many of my friends fell into the category you describe. Now none of them do. What do you think might have happened?
Ted DuPuis said:
Perhaps I'm not stating it loudly enough, so I will state it louder. :)

Being married to an accomplished pilot (far more accomplished than me) certainly makes it easier for us to do long trips. But I have friends with families for whom dad is the only pilot, mom has varying levels between liking flying and hating flying, and piston GA is how they travel. Dad says "This is how we go places," mom knows it makes dad happy so that's what they do.

Maybe my friends are weird. Would make sense since they're my friends and I'm weird. :)
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wabower said:
And I submit that over time you will learn that it ain't over until the lady sings. When the song is "no, dear, that's the way we used to go places" all bets are off for the GA ride. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when any of them tried to sell her on the new ride being built in somebody's shed. But anyway, when I was your age many of my friends fell into the category you describe. Now none of them do. What do you think might have happened?
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Since most of the folks I'm referring to are closer to your age than mine, I'd have to guess the answer is:

You found new friends. ;)
 
wabower said:
And I submit that over time you will learn that it ain't over until the lady sings. When the song is "no, dear, that's the way we used to go places" all bets are off for the GA ride. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when any of them tried to sell her on the new ride being built in somebody's shed. But anyway, when I was your age many of my friends fell into the category you describe. Now none of them do. What do you think might have happened?
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They got fat and lazy?
 
OK, let's say some of your "we travel this way" friends lose some other friends in a GA plane crash. Is the personal retrospection and scrutiny any different than if the friends were totaled in a 121 crash?

Ted DuPuis said:
Since most of the folks I'm referring to are closer to your age than mine, I'd have to guess the answer is:

You found new friends. ;)
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wabower said:
OK, let's say some of your "we travel this way" friends lose some other friends in a GA plane crash. Is the personal retrospection and scrutiny any different than if the friends were totaled in a 121 crash?
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Ahhh, so it comes down to fear of dying. Ok, but we die anyway regardless of how much living we avoid.
 
wabower said:
OK, let's say some of your "we travel this way" friends lose some other friends in a GA plane crash. Is the personal retrospection and scrutiny any different than if the friends were totaled in a 121 crash?
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Likely so, Wayne. Likely so.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Seeing as two of the friends I can think of who've had that attitude have been married 30-40 years with planes and kids most of that time period, seems to be working just fine for them.
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Maybe they put it a little less bluntly than you just did. :D

On the other side of the coin, I know someone who sold his share in a Bonanza because his wife didn't want to do Denver to St. Louis a few times a year in it. A perfect trip for the Bo. They either drive or go by airline. He's been married 30+ years and I think he wants to stay that way!
 
We don't know or care, we're just some people who fly because we say so watching the reactions of another family who lost some friends. And your off-the-wall theory of living and dying isn't going to mean jack shlt to the lady of the house when you're talking about her kids, so take that line and shove it.

Henning said:
Ahhh, so it comes down to fear of dying. Ok, but we die anyway regardless of how much living we avoid.
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Everskyward said:
Maybe they put it a little less bluntly than you just did. :D
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I know a few who put it that bluntly, and others I think took a gentler approach that worked well also. This isn't a relationship advice thread, so I was more saying what it worked out to. ;)

On the other side of the coin, I know someone who sold his share in a Bonanza because his wife didn't want to do Denver to St. Louis a few times a year in it. A perfect trip for the Bo. They either drive or go by airline. He's been married 30+ years and I think he wants to stay that way!
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Yep, and I think that's a more productive way of looking at it for most marriages. But this isn't a relationship advice thread. ;)

There, I said it twice!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I know a few who put it that bluntly, and others I think took a gentler approach that worked well also. This isn't a relationship advice thread, so I was more saying what it worked out to. ;)



Yep, and I think that's a more productive way of looking at it for most marriages. But this isn't a relationship advice thread. ;)

There, I said it twice!
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How can it not be considered as such when the primary determinant is whether his partner and kids will go for it?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Fuel wise, can your Baron comfortably do much further? I never liked doing more than 4:30 in the Aztec, and in the 310 I really should be on the ground by 4 hours anyway. Doubly so with the overhauled 520s and higher power settings we're running with them.
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If I go slow (e.g. <170 KTAS vs my usual 180-185) and fly high (14000+) I could do 5 hr legs with my current fuel capacity and still have IFR reserves. One of these days Cygnet is going to offer nacelle tanks which would extend that another 1.5-2hrs but unless I was flying by myself that extra range wouldn't really be useful. But l usually operate at or below 14k and at least 180 KTAS which means 4:00-4:30 is my limit.
 
Geico266 said:
Getting there is half the fun in GA. All this dreaming about planes none of you own is pretty silly. Listening to actual trips of owners who actually fly, and being respectful of their choices would be a huge improvement to POA over the current group of know it alls.

Leave the name calling and personal attacks out of the conversation and more people would contribute.

:yes:


Good night!
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I've owned a 310, a Navajo, a King Air, have operated a 340, 414, 421, Commanders, etc. As for me and a few others we are not "dreaming" of these aircraft, we've been there/done that and some are still doing it.

A couple of other contributors have offered insights on the planes they have owned or currently own and operate that are within the OP's parameters.

So most of us actually fly or have flown these trips with various aircraft types.
 
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