Pipistrel Panthera - The perfect airplane?

Well. At OSH26, there was a Big Pipistrel Announcement that was even teased by EAA.

Was it the Panthera finally getting certified under MOSAIC?

No. It was their 27th two-seat training aircraft. :mad2: :incazzato::mad3:

I gave a sales rep some crap about it. He said that "there are plans" but what those plans are, or whether or not they have something to do with something other than the 28th two-seat training aircraft, he did not say.

C'mon, Textron. This design is too good to sit on like this! Get with the program and certify it, or sell it and let someone else show you how it's done!

Grrrr.
 
Market disruption helps newcomers at the expense of incumbents. I don't yet see the mechanism to benefit Textron, but I won't immediately dismiss the possibility that they bought Pipistrel (or just Panthera) to kill it.
 
DJTorrente said:
Market disruption helps newcomers at the expense of incumbents. I don't yet see the mechanism to benefit Textron, but I won't immediately dismiss the possibility that they bought Pipistrel (or just Panthera) to kill it.
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The sad part is, the disruption happened TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS AGO when Cirrus entered the market. And there is nothing that stops any other GA manufacturer from copying Cirrus' exact formula and making a killing except they're too entrenched in their ways and too dumb to see how Cirrus is doing it.

Killing the Panthera will not benefit Textron or any of their brands in any way... But they may inadvertently kill it just because they suck at selling small airplanes.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well. At OSH26, there was a Big Pipistrel Announcement that was even teased by EAA.

Was it the Panthera finally getting certified under MOSAIC?

No. It was their 27th two-seat training aircraft. :mad2: :incazzato::mad3:

I gave a sales rep some crap about it. He said that "there are plans" but what those plans are, or whether or not they have something to do with something other than the 28th two-seat training aircraft, he did not say.

C'mon, Textron. This design is too good to sit on like this! Get with the program and certify it, or sell it and let someone else show you how it's done!

Grrrr.
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Textron bought an already certified 4 place low wing. They couldn't figure out what to re name it and killed it.

That and poor composite work when they moved things to Mexico didn't help.
 
This would be a cirrus killer, but it will end up being a Textron killer, like they did with the ttx, the baron and the bonanza. . Which is why the RV10 is the better choice. And btw, do those parachutes really save folks?
 
GeorgeC said:
FTFY
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How would killing it make them money?

Yeah, they won't make as much from the Panthera as they do selling Citations. But, this is a segment of the market they just aren't in, and if done right (see Cirrus), it could be a way to hook people on Textron products and sell more Citations. There are a TON of former SR22 owners who are in Vision jets now, Pantheras could sell CJs just as well.

FWIW, Cirrus sold 152 SR20s, 155 SR22s, and 384 SR22Ts last year for a total of 691 piston aircraft. If Textron sold the Panthera right, they could eat Cirrus' lunch, and the 106 Vision jets Cirrus sold could have been Citations. Textron, OTOH, sold just 317 piston singles, with 191 of them being 172s, and 639 aircraft total. Yeah - Cirrus sold more airplanes than all of Textron last year. 311 Cessna piston singles, 100 Cessna turboprops (86 Caravans/14 SkyCouriers), 11 Beechcraft pistons (6 Bo/5 Baron), 46 King Airs, and 171 Citations.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
How would killing it make them money?

Yeah, they won't make as much from the Panthera as they do selling Citations. But, this is a segment of the market they just aren't in, and if done right (see Cirrus), it could be a way to hook people on Textron products and sell more Citations. There are a TON of former SR22 owners who are in Vision jets now, Pantheras could sell CJs just as well.

FWIW, Cirrus sold 152 SR20s, 155 SR22s, and 384 SR22Ts last year for a total of 691 piston aircraft. If Textron sold the Panthera right, they could eat Cirrus' lunch, and the 106 Vision jets Cirrus sold could have been Citations. Textron, OTOH, sold just 317 piston singles, with 191 of them being 172s, and 639 aircraft total. Yeah - Cirrus sold more airplanes than all of Textron last year. 311 Cessna piston singles, 100 Cessna turboprops (86 Caravans/14 SkyCouriers), 11 Beechcraft pistons (6 Bo/5 Baron), 46 King Airs, and 171 Citations.
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Maybe you should buy stock in Textron, then show up at their next investor meeting and show them the error of their ways.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
How would killing it make them money?
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Income - expenses = profit.

Anyone here who's got real insight into Textron's business model it most likely not able to discuss it. If their models predict low to negative profits selling and supporting Pantheras with increased risk (technical, programmatic, and legal) (a) you wouldn't know, and (b) if you knew they predicted a loss, do you thing they should continue regardless since they might bring people into the 'brand family'? How many Skycatcher owners or even trainees moved up to Citations because of brand loyalty?

Nauga,
and armchair CEOs
 
Did the Panthera even go into production? The two I see for sale online: one looks like a demonstrator and the other one looks like the prototype.
 
NorthEast Ohio said:
Did the Panthera even go into production? The two I see for sale online: one looks like a demonstrator and the other one looks like the prototype.
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There are 17 listed in the aircraft registry, although I didn't verify each entry had a real airplane attached to it. I looked at five or six of them and All of them are experimental certificates, the majority being exhibition and a couple market survey. I believe it's 'in production' (how many, I don't know) overseas but there's a reason there are a bunch of ex/ex examples in the US.

Think Textron is eager to invest in a whole new cert program for a piston single?

Nauga,
whose old habits die hard
 
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Doc Holliday said:
Maybe you should buy stock in Textron, then show up at their next investor meeting and show them the error of their ways.
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Cirrus has been doing that for nearly three decades, I don't expect Textron to open up their eyes now.

nauga said:
Income - expenses = profit.
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Yeah... So they already blew a bunch of money buying the company, why let one of their crown jewels languish?

nauga said:
Anyone here who's got real insight into Textron's business model it most likely not able to discuss it. If their models predict low to negative profits selling and supporting Pantheras with increased risk (technical, programmatic, and legal) (a) you wouldn't know,
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True, but if their profits are that low, it just means the price is too low. I doubt it costs significantly more to produce a Panthera than it does to produce a C172 unless Pipistrel's design didn't take production cost into account. Cessna already has an existing support network, though the Panthera certainly has some very different parts. Liability exposure, likewise, wouldn't be that much different than a 172. If they can sell the 172 for 400K or even 500K, an 800K Panthera should bring in enough money even if it sells in low numbers. If they'd heed the lessons of Cirrus I'm sure they could sell more Pantheras than 172s and make some pretty good money.

Alas, the larger the company, the stupider they tend to get, and Textron is growing quickly via these acquisitions. I expect they'll "proceed with caution" and squander the whole thing.

nauga said:
and (b) if you knew they predicted a loss, do you thing they should continue regardless since they might bring people into the 'brand family'? How many Skycatcher owners or even trainees moved up to Citations because of brand loyalty?
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Skycatchers? Probably none. There were two markets for the Skycatcher: Flight schools, and old guys who already lost their medical. Neither is ever going to be in the market for a Citation.

On the other hand, a sleek, sexy single for well-to-do individuals to spread their wings with can easily bring in future Citation sales. Again, the blueprint is right there in front of them. Er, next to them, just to the west at Airventure, in the form of Cirrus.
 
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