Piper Warrior budget Waas Gps advice

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Wingz4life

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Wingz4life7
Hi everyone,

75’ Piper Warrior with a straight six pack that I’m looking to add a GNC 355 since my 2 kx-155 are starting to give me problems. I have a Piper Autocontrol IIB that I would like the 355 to interface with. I wanted the 355 with cdi to be primary at top of stack and would keep the kx155 with GS as the backup and ditch the other 155. I would either repair or replace the 155 GS as needed as funds allow. Panel layout suggestions welcomed…

Next, can I keep the standard 6 pack and just add a compatible cdi for gps approaches with the 355 steering the autopilot without anything extra? I’m looking for a used cdi from Garmin or KI on the cheap, but wondering if I go to a Garmin G5 or 275 for a little more money. I like the idea of a backup electric ADI. My plan was gps/comm this year and next year get a pair of G5’s.

Lastly, I found a A&P that is very reasonable on his hourly rates but not familiar with the 355. Looking to have him install the 355 and interface the cdi and autopilot. I initially told him I was going with the 175 until the radio started acting up. Is the 355 a straightforward install for an A&P?

Anyone who already went down this route with advice would be greatly appreciated.

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The GNC355 can be interfaced to your AP. You can keep the 6 pack and add a CDI. As for installing by an A&P, it depends on the A&P. It’s not rocket surgery, but not every A&P has the skills and/or tools to do the work, and no matter how reasonable their rates are, if they don’t know what they are doing, it’s not worth it.
 
Thanks Ryan! The info I was looking for. I’m going to meet up with him this week and see how many installs he has under his belt.
 
Another question came into mind,

I found a compatible KI 209. Do I need to order an install kit for it?
 
Ryan Klems said:
The GNC355 can be interfaced to your AP. You can keep the 6 pack and add a CDI. As for installing by an A&P, it depends on the A&P. It’s not rocket surgery, but not every A&P has the skills and/or tools to do the work, and no matter how reasonable their rates are, if they don’t know what they are doing, it’s not worth it.
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+1 on Ryans's comments. Highly advise getting a quote from an avionics shop. This is all they do, and more cost effective to install as they are very proficient through repetition; whereas many A&P's a heming/hawing the schematics and nest steps on the clock. A number of pilots are going with the GNX-375 GPS-WAAS/ADS-B transponder combined with the GNC-255A. Terrific set-up.
 
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Wingz4life said:
Another question came into mind,

I found a compatible KI 209. Do I need to order an install kit for it?
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I wouldn’t use a KI209 if you can avoid it. While it is an approved indicator, It has an internal converter, so you’ll have to use the composite signal out of the GPS, which has some limitations. You’ll also have to have a placard on the panel about the to/from flag not working correctly.
 
NordicDave said:
+1 on Ryans's comments. Highly advise getting a quote from an avionics shop. This is all they do, and more cost effective to install as they are very proficient through repetition; whereas many A&P's a heming/hawing the schematics and nest steps on the clock. A number of pilots are going with the GNX-375 GPS-WAAS/ADS-B transponder combined with the GNC-255A. Terrific set-up.
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Thanks Dave, I have 3 shops working on a quote.
 
Ryan Klems said:
I wouldn’t use a KI209 if you can avoid it. While it is an approved indicator, It has an internal converter, so you’ll have to use the composite signal out of the GPS, which has some limitations. You’ll also have to have a placard on the panel about the to/from flag not working correctly.
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Thanks Ryan, I asked the shops to quote a Garmin 106a instead.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
Wow! You still have a Northstar wheel chock in that panel!
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LOL, yep! Owned the plane almost two years and tired of staring at it! Purchased this plane for my two kids flight instruction and it’s time to bring it up to speed a bit.
 
I installed a GTN 650 with with GI-106A and an PMA6000B audio panel last month. Here is the before and after.
I purchased the GTN 650 and 601A from Sarasota repaired with 6 month warranty. I thought the 375 screens were too narrow compared to the 650.
BTW I am an A&P I.A. and it took me less time than the avionics shops that gave me a quote and saved me close to $15K in labor.
Next on the list is dual G5s.
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I've never seen a bowtie yoke on one side and horn on the other.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I've never seen a bowtie yoke on one side and horn on the other.
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it costs quite a bit in labor to change the bowtie... if it ain't broke...

well, it cost me quite a bit back when I was doing extensive work. The labor for changing all the fiddly bits behind the panel was a subcontract to my mechanics working on the airplane.
 
Bob Noel said:
it costs quite a bit in labor to change the bowtie... if it ain't broke...

well, it cost me quite a bit back when I was doing extensive work. The labor for changing all the fiddly bits behind the panel was a subcontract to my mechanics working on the airplane.
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Labor's the cheap part on that mod... those Avion yokes are $$ these days. Did you buy them as the pair, but only installed one? I've never seen Avion actually sell them as a single before. Shouldn't be more than a few hours to remove the bowtie and install the Avion ... curious what stuff did they change behind the panel (I suppose I could see doing the universal joint at the same time if it was bad, but not really necessary for the mod)
 
Wingz4life said:
I asked the shops to quote a Garmin 106a instead.
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Are you asking for a used one? A brand new GI275 is only a little bit more than a brand new GI-106 and is capable of way more than just being a CDI. There's also fewer wires to connect between a GI275 and a GNC355 (all digital).
 
Ryan Klems said:
Labor's the cheap part on that mod... those Avion yokes are $$ these days. Did you buy them as the pair, but only installed one? I've never seen Avion actually sell them as a single before. Shouldn't be more than a few hours to remove the bowtie and install the Avion ... curious what stuff did they change behind the panel (I suppose I could see doing the universal joint at the same time if it was bad, but not really necessary for the mod)
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When the plane was donated to us back in September of 2020 and we went through the ADs we found the right side cracked. Avion only had one in stock at the time at almost $800. Now they are almost twice that so unless we find the other cracked it wont be replaced.
 
asicer said:
Are you asking for a used one? A brand new GI275 is only a little bit more than a brand new GI-106 and is capable of way more than just being a CDI. There's also fewer wires to connect between a GI275 and a GNC355 (all digital).
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I just was researching this last night. But everything keeps adding to the bottom line which is adding up quickly. I really want the adi and hsi replaced with digital for safety, but will quickly put me into $20k plus which is why I wanted to tackle gps this year and instruments next year. I’ll have them quote the 275.
 
Ryan Klems said:
Labor's the cheap part on that mod... those Avion yokes are $$ these days. Did you buy them as the pair, but only installed one? I've never seen Avion actually sell them as a single before. Shouldn't be more than a few hours to remove the bowtie and install the Avion ... curious what stuff did they change behind the panel (I suppose I could see doing the universal joint at the same time if it was bad, but not really necessary for the mod)
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clarification: That wasn't my airplane pictured. the work I was referring to was back in 2002 so I'll use that as an excuse for not remembering exactly... I'm pretty sure the universal joints were replaced and I have this vague recollection that parts were different diameters so the universal joints were going to get worked on anyway... but perhaps the joints were a smidge sloppy and I agreed to replaced the univeral joints, falling victim to the while-you-are-at-it trap .

If I recall correctly, I bought the replacement yokes from a salvage yard.
 
edessa said:
I installed a GTN 650 with with GI-106A and an PMA6000B audio panel last month. Here is the before and after.
I purchased the GTN 650 and 601A from Sarasota repaired with 6 month warranty. I thought the 375 screens were too narrow compared to the 650.
BTW I am an A&P I.A. and it took me less time than the avionics shops that gave me a quote and saved me close to $15K in labor.
Next on the list is dual G5s.
View attachment 128594
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I somehow missed this post. Panel looks great! I spent a month looking for a slightly used gtn 650 etc and all I came up with were ridiculous used prices vs new and a ton of scammers. It was extremely frustrating and leading me to just buy new from a reputable dealer with a 2 year warranty. I’m waiting for the shops to send me quotes, but I’m torn on the A&P I found who is around $60/hr. He said the GPS/comm and Cdi would be no problem. He said he didn’t do autopilots, but looking at the manual, it looks fairly straight forward and compatible for the Century IIB. I may ask him if I could hook it up and have him sign it off. Keep the suggestions coming folks, I have already changed my mind on some things that will save some frustrations due to everyone’s advice. So big Thank you!
 
Wingz4life said:
it looks fairly straight forward and compatible for the Century IIB
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You would think so, but @cowman might disagree.
www.pilotsofamerica.com

So, I got my GI-275s in and my plane FINALLY back.

I found a picture @asicer !! huzzah! It just looks so much "cleaner" and professionally done. We pay so much to fly, there's something to be said for the tight fit-n-finish look To give credit where credit is due, this is from Steinair and it's $79... an incredible TINY price to pay...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
 
asicer said:
You would think so, but @cowman might disagree.
www.pilotsofamerica.com

So, I got my GI-275s in and my plane FINALLY back.

I found a picture @asicer !! huzzah! It just looks so much "cleaner" and professionally done. We pay so much to fly, there's something to be said for the tight fit-n-finish look To give credit where credit is due, this is from Steinair and it's $79... an incredible TINY price to pay...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
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If the Avionics shops come back with crazy pricing, I’m going to have the A&P install the GPS, Cdi and show him the schematic for hooking up the autopilot. There are two wires lateral +/- that go to Cdi and autopilot. My plane just came out of annual with the Century II acting up when it was working perfectly just before. I’m scheduled to have my A&P look at it to see if something was bumped and accidentally disconnected.
 
One thing I will suggest is who ever does the work plan on a good post maintenance flight and test everything at length. Dont go home unless you are happy.
Buddy of mine had a full panel replacement, spent $60K and he had me correct a lot of issues once he got home, one being the ADAHARS unit being placed 16 degree nose down.
 
edessa said:
One thing I will suggest is who ever does the work plan on a good post maintenance flight and test everything at length. Dont go home unless you are happy.
Buddy of mine had a full panel replacement, spent $60K and he had me correct a lot of issues once he got home, one being the ADAHARS unit being placed 16 degree nose down.
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That’s crazy! I definitely will, thanks for the tip.
 
Clip4 said:
Your money, but the Avidyne products have more appeal to me than Garmin theses days.
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Which Avidyne Clip? From what I briefly searched, we are almost talking double the price. Even used prices are astronomical.
 
The GI-275 - century autopilot interface is NOT plug and play despite what the marketing suggests, it requires an interface box that's not included or even available from Garmin. The shop that did mine attempted to build one... eventually with the help of POA we found Deklin makes a pre-built interface. I would make sure the shop you use has connected a GI-275 to a century autopilot before, mine had not and they didn't seem to know what they were doing.

edessa said:
One thing I will suggest is who ever does the work plan on a good post maintenance flight and test everything at length. Dont go home unless you are happy.
Buddy of mine had a full panel replacement, spent $60K and he had me correct a lot of issues once he got home, one being the ADAHARS unit being placed 16 degree nose down.
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When I went to pick up my aircraft immediately upon powering up the avionics I found multiple error/warning messages on my 530W and the new GI-275s. All were due to software configuration either being done wrong or not at all. That to me was the most unforgivable sin they committed. This wasn't some odd thing that cropped up in flight these were obvious problems that anyone powering on the avionics should have immediately seen- someone saw that and just decided it didn't matter or they didn't care and sent it out the door. I refused to leave until they fixed it of course.
 
Wingz4life said:
Which Avidyne Clip? From what I briefly searched, we are almost talking double the price. Even used prices are astronomical.
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AVIDYNE IFD440 - yep it cost a lot, but I have used the 355 and it sucks. Down load the app and you will readily see the difference with the premium product.​

 
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Clip4 said:

AVIDYNE IFD540 - yep it cost a lot, but I have used the 355 and it sucks. Down load the app and you will readily see the difference with the premium product.​

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I have the 355 app and actually been enjoying it and like a lot of its features. Out of curiosity, What do you like about the avidyne better than the Garmin? I do realize there are better systems out there, but this is a training plane for the kids that occasionally the wife and I will use for ~3 hour flights.

Garmin is the budget WAAS with pros and cons, but still highly regarded from many sources. $12k will add a lot of utility and safety for my Warrior. The mission right now doesn’t support the added cost for a plane that does 109kts with a single axis autopilot.
 
Wingz4life said:
I have the 355 app and actually been enjoying it and like a lot of its features. Out of curiosity, What do you like about the avidyne better than the Garmin?
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I'm not clip4, but the 2 most obvious things would be that the IFD540 has a bigger screen and that it has a NAV radio.
 
asicer said:
I'm not clip4, but the 2 most obvious things would be that the IFD540 has a bigger screen and that it has a NAV radio.
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Those are both nice features. I’ll have the kx-155 with ILS as a backup to the 355. Adding a 355, Cdi(106a or possibly the GI275) driving a single axis Century seems like a nice upgrade for what I plan to do with the plane. If my comm radios weren’t acting up, I would have probably sprung for the Gnx 375 instead. I’m trying to talk to as many people as I can who have done a similar upgrade and everyone seems to love the 355.

My guess is the avionics shop that I’m leaning towards will quote approx 25 hours @120hr which puts me at $12k for a 355, Cdi and autopilot hookup. The A&P will be approx $9500 when all is said and done. If those figures are somewhat accurate, I’ll go with the avionics shop for peace of mind knowing they did this 100 times. I have seen their work and talked to the owner and they are on point. Either way, I’m excited for this upgrade and enjoy reading everyone’s opinion!
 
Wingz4life said:
I have the 355 app and actually been enjoying it and like a lot of its features. Out of curiosity, What do you like about the avidyne better than the Garmin? I do realize there are better systems out there, but this is a training plane for the kids that occasionally the wife and I will use for ~3 hour flights.

Garmin is the budget WAAS with pros and cons, but still highly regarded from many sources. $12k will add a lot of utility and safety for my Warrior. The mission right now doesn’t support the added cost for a plane that does 109kts with a single axis autopilot.
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The Avidyne is a very intuitive product with all the features displayed properly on the screen for the function in use. The screen resolution is excellent. The 355 /650 are poorly designed both as hardware and software and should be an embarrassment to Garmin engineers.

If you disagree with unit is more intuitive, cross train a pilot reasonably proficient with a 430/530 to the Garmin and Avidyne units. Not only did Avidyne make a slide in unit to replace the 430, they have a unit that provides a very simple transition.
 
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I can’t agree or disagree since I haven’t owned or used either. But I value your opinion. If Avidyne had a product in the price range I’m needing, I would give them strong consideration. At the end of the day, I need a capable Waas Gps for kids training and occasional travel. I bought this plane solely for their training and found out it was enjoyable for short hops with the wife. If this was a daily or weekly travel machine, I would be getting a faster, better equipped airplane.

At the end of the day, spending $12k seems like a fair trade off for what I’m looking to accomplish as far as safety and utility.
 
Wingz4life said:
I can’t agree or disagree since I haven’t owned or used either. But I value your opinion. If Avidyne had a product in the price range I’m needing, I would give them strong consideration. At the end of the day, I need a capable Waas Gps for kids training and occasional travel. I bought this plane solely for their training and found out it was enjoyable for short hops with the wife. If this was a daily or weekly travel machine, I would be getting a faster, better equipped airplane.

At the end of the day, spending $12k seems like a fair trade off for what I’m looking to accomplish as far as safety and utility.
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If you want the least expensive RNAV to be used for local VFR operations and some IFR light thrown in, the 355 has that capability. If you are flying IFR much, there is no comparison between the two units. I fly with both a hate flying with the 355. Clunky vs smooth is the best description. You can down load trainers for both products and see the difference.
 
Noted for future, and appreciate your opinion.
 
Kinda puzzling to me that the panel mount GPS market is so constrained, with only 2 vendors. In particular, I wonder why Dynon does not offer one.
 
A 5k installed solution would be transformative in the lower end of this space. I was able to do everything I wanted to do in my 2000smoh warrior with a mere KLN-89B, and that thing had as spartan a moving map as you could get mind you. Get rid of the touchscreen functionality and lower the screen cost on a gps175 type architecture (basically the form factor of the 89B/94), and the thing would sell. It's just an extortion fee to gain /G access to the NAS anyways, given the amazing functionality of foreflight these days.

Another alternative would be a econo-form GPS like the old Apollo 360 GPS. Again, no reason we couldn't reduce cost and still offer legal /G filing capability with such a unit at a lower cost than even the GPS175.
 
hindsight2020 said:
A 5k installed solution would be transformative in the lower end of this space. I was able to do everything I wanted to do in my 2000smoh warrior with a mere KLN-89B, and that thing had as spartan a moving map as you could get mind you. Get rid of the touchscreen functionality and lower the screen cost on a gps175 type architecture (basically the form factor of the 89B/94), and the thing would sell.
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The way things are these days, getting rid of the touchscreen might actually increase the price due to the need for adding hard buttons to make up the difference in functionality. Even shrinking the screen probably wouldn't move the needle enough.
 
I think I finally have a game plan after a lot of back and forth. I’m about to order a direct wiring harness from Approach fast stack using the Garmin GNC355. The last piece of the puzzle is do I use a 106B, GI275 or a G5 DG/Nav. I’m leaning on a G5 as I plan on putting a G5 adi in later and by having the wiring harness already wired for future G5’s, it keeps me near my budget for this year.

I decided on the pre wired harness because of the reviews, quality of hardware and connections and will help this A&P quite a bit regarding labor and possible interference from poor connection points. I also talked to Sean at fast stack quite a bit and he was always timely,patient and thorough with his replies. I called quite a few avionics shops and they were north of $15k for the 355 with a 106a. I think the wiring harness with my A&P is where I’m headed.
 
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