Piper Eddy Current Inspection

[LoyolaCub68]

Hi all,

First time poster and long time lurker. Was in the process of purchasing a Piper Cherokee 6/300. Noted in the log books that during the annual the tech had noted the Eddy current inspection was due for the wing spars in 200 hours. We asked as part of the pre-buy if seller would be willing to help split the cost of the inspection, to which we were told that not only would the seller not help pay for the inspection but he wouldn't allow us to perform it at all as part of the pre-buy.

Broker stated that the plane still had 200 hours left on it which is a couple years of flying by his estimation. We pulled out of this deal immediately but got me wondering if asking for the eddy current inspection was unreasonable and at what point / amount of hours would you want to include this as part of the prebuy?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jim K]

Hi all,

First time poster and long time lurker. Was in the process of purchasing a Piper Cherokee 6/300. Noted in the log books that during the annual the tech had noted the Eddy current inspection was due for the wing spars in 200 hours. We asked as part of the pre-buy if seller would be willing to help split the cost of the inspection, to which we were told that not only would the seller not help pay for the inspection but he wouldn't allow us to perform it at all as part of the pre-buy.

Broker stated that the plane still had 200 hours left on it which is a couple years of flying by his estimation. We pulled out of this deal immediately but got me wondering if asking for the eddy current inspection was unreasonable and at what point / amount of hours would you want to include this as part of the prebuy?

Thanks in advance.

Couple things:

The logbook inspection is required at 5000tt. From the logbook inspection you determine factored service hours (FSH). The actual eddy current inspection is not due until 5000 fsh. Part 91 hours are counted 17:1.

For example my plane has ~5700tt. It was in a 135 operation early in its life, and got 17 100 hour inspections. Those hours count 1:1. 5700-1700=4000 hours pt 91. 4000/17=235, so my plane has just under 2000 fsh. 3000x17= 51,000 hours pt91 time remaining. I won't live that long.

So it matters what the plane's tt is, and what the fsh is. If I was selling my plane, I wouldn't allow the eci, especially in this market, as it is a somewhat invasive procedure with a non- zero chance of causing damage or getting a false positive.

That said, I don't really blame you for walking away. If the plane really only has 200 pt 91 hours before the eci, it needs to be done and I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot towbar. I think it's more likely however that all parties involved misunderstood the AD.

If the plane has 200fsh remaining, that's 3400 hours, which is a LONG time in owner flown service. There's a very high chance the AD will change once the FAA collects enough data. I'm guessing it goes away personally, but that's just a guess. I wouldn't be rushing to do the eci if I didn't have to, and were I your seller, I would've said the same thing. But I would've explained it better

 

[Bell206]

We pulled out of this deal immediately but got me wondering if asking for the eddy current inspection was unreasonable and at what point / amount of hours would you want to include this as part of the prebuy?

FWIW: aircraft prebuys are very subjective to the buyer and by extension to the APIA who will maintain that aircraft for the buyer. Trying to determine if the eddy current inspection is important is no different than determining if an engine run past OEM OH recommendations is important to you. There is no established standard for prebuy inspections nor will there be.

 

[mandm]

Hi all,

First time poster and long time lurker. Was in the process of purchasing a Piper Cherokee 6/300. Noted in the log books that during the annual the tech had noted the Eddy current inspection was due for the wing spars in 200 hours. We asked as part of the pre-buy if seller would be willing to help split the cost of the inspection, to which we were told that not only would the seller not help pay for the inspection but he wouldn't allow us to perform it at all as part of the pre-buy.

Broker stated that the plane still had 200 hours left on it which is a couple years of flying by his estimation. We pulled out of this deal immediately but got me wondering if asking for the eddy current inspection was unreasonable and at what point / amount of hours would you want to include this as part of the prebuy?

Thanks in advance.

I also backed out of a Piper deal over a year ago, the Seller said he would do the eddy current but they were quickly trying to say they would cover the cost of the eddy current inspection (vs perform the inspection prior to transacting) which I think is not that expensive anyways. The point is I would want that done prior to buying the plane especially if it’s been a trainer or approaching the AD factored service hours of 5000, if there is a problem the plane now has an airworthy issue and it’s 20k easy to fix one spar, the standard contract to buy an airplane has a clause that you are buying an airworthy airplane so any spar issues are the responsibility of the seller if discovered during the prebuy, you can then negotiate or back out of the deal.

Remember for Pipers there are different locations to check for spars. The eddy current is more for high training ops close to the fuselage, but you should also remove the fuel tanks and check the inner spar there too, as a hard landing may have cracked that spar and you won’t know otherwise until it’s time to replace the fuel hoses (that’s the only time the fuel tanks are pulled from what I’ve been told).

 

[LoyolaCub68]

Couple things:

The logbook inspection is required at 5000tt. From the logbook inspection you determine factored service hours (FSH). The actual eddy current inspection is not due until 5000 fsh. Part 91 hours are counted 17:1.

For example my plane has ~5700tt. It was in a 135 operation early in its life, and got 17 100 hour inspections. Those hours count 1:1. 5700-1700=4000 hours pt 91. 4000/17=235, so my plane has just under 2000 fsh. 3000x17= 51,000 hours pt91 time remaining. I won't live that long.

So it matters what the plane's tt is, and what the fsh is. If I was selling my plane, I wouldn't allow the eci, especially in this market, as it is a somewhat invasive procedure with a non- zero chance of causing damage or getting a false positive.

That said, I don't really blame you for walking away. If the plane really only has 200 pt 91 hours before the eci, it needs to be done and I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot towbar. I think it's more likely however that all parties involved misunderstood the AD.

If the plane has 200fsh remaining, that's 3400 hours, which is a LONG time in owner flown service. There's a very high chance the AD will change once the FAA collects enough data. I'm guessing it goes away personally, but that's just a guess. I wouldn't be rushing to do the eci if I didn't have to, and were I your seller, I would've said the same thing. But I would've explained it better

This is such great information. I didn’t realize there was way more to the spar issue than total hours. Thanks for this!

 

[Country Flier]

At first consideration, a seller not allowing you to do the inspection might seem very concerning (and I too would back out of the sale) it probably isn't because it has a problem. Right now planes are selling so quickly, and many without a pre-purchase inspection at all. Its probably (just me guessing here) has more to do with the market than a problem. But, like I said, I wouldn't take that risk.

 

[Unit74]

If you were buying a house and the seller refused to allow you to have the roof inspected, I’d counter offer the discount to reroof the house. If they go ape **** and of course refuse, they are scared of what you may find. I think you are better off. If they take the offer, that tells you they are aware of some issue. You now have cash in hand to fix it.

In any case, a seller refusing to allow you to inspect it pulls out a red card. However, if there is still 200 hours left till the next inspection and you think the seller should pay half of the new inspection, you are most certainly unreasonable. If you want it done, you pay for it. If you don’t like the results, you walk having payed for a lesson in life, of which you got tremendous value from. If it’s a nothing burger, you don’t have to do it again for a long time.

 

[Joe_B1]

If you were buying a house and the seller refused to allow you to have the roof inspected, I’d counter offer the discount to reroof the house. If they go ape **** and of course refuse, they are scared of what you may find. I think you are better off. If they take the offer, that tells you they are aware of some issue. You now have cash in hand to fix it.

In any case, a seller refusing to allow you to inspect it pulls out a red card. However, if there is still 200 hours left till the next inspection and you think the seller should pay half of the new inspection, you are most certainly unreasonable. If you want it done, you pay for it. If you don’t like the results, you walk having payed for a lesson in life, of which you got tremendous value from. If it’s a nothing burger, you don’t have to do it again for a long time.

Didn't he say the seller refused to have the inspection done? It smells, how do we know the inspection wasn't already done with less than favorable results?

 

[Hang 4]

Asking for a highly invasive inspection done by an unknown mechanic that is not required by the AD. If I was the seller, I'd just start dealing with one of the many others that want to buy the plane. BTW, no way it's due in 200 hours in Part 91 operations. What were the total hours in the logbook and what was the factored service hours calculation?

 

[Bell206]

a seller refusing to allow you to inspect it pulls out a red card.

he say the seller refused to have the inspection done?

Curious. If you were the seller of this aircraft would you approve any potential buyer to perform this inspection by anyone of his choice? Would you let him pull a engine cylinder to make sure there was no internal corrosion? Or perform any other test/inspection on your airplane? Where would you draw the line as a seller?

 

[Joe_B1]

Curious. If you were the seller of this aircraft would you approve any potential buyer to perform this inspection by anyone of his choice? Would you let him pull a engine cylinder to make sure there was no internal corrosion? Or perform any other test/inspection on your airplane? Where would you draw the line as a seller?

You have a point but what is a thorough prebuy? Don't you remove inspection panels? You could borescope places for corrosion. I am not sure how invasive an eddy current inspection is but given that there is and AD and the plane is close to the deadline, I don't think it's unreasonable. Bottom line is if it doesn't feel right, walk away.

 

[Clip4]

Curious. If you were the seller of this aircraft would you approve any potential buyer to perform this inspection by anyone of his choice? Would you let him pull a engine cylinder to make sure there was no internal corrosion? Or perform any other test/inspection on your airplane? Where would you draw the line as a seller?

I think the OP made a very reasonable proposal given an AD exists. If the owner didn’t want the buyers shop to do the inspection, he could have accepted the 50/50 proposal with his shop performing the AD. The seller desires to pass the AD risk to the buyer. The buyer only option is to adjust his offer for the risk known or walk.

 

[Joe_B1]

I think the OP made a very reasonable proposal given an AD exists. If the owner didn’t want the buyers shop to do the inspection, he could have accepted the 50/50 proposal with his shop performing the AD. The seller desires to pass the AD risk to the buyer. The buyer only option is to adjust his offer for the risk known or walk.

Yes, and keep in mind that the risk could be huge. What's a new wing spar go for?

 

[Bell206]

I think the OP made a very reasonable proposal given an AD exists.

Yes, and keep in mind that the risk could be huge.

That's a given. But the question still stands: if YOU were selling this aircraft would you let any potential buyer perform any test/inspection by any person they want for any reason on your aircraft?

 

[mandm]

Yes, and keep in mind that the risk could be huge. What's a new wing spar go for?

20k easy for one. You could have 1 or 2 messed up spars. And I’m not even sure how many spars there are in the plane I’m sure it’s more than 2, forward and aft spar, main spar in the center, plus 2 wing spars. I could pull out a diagram if the Buyer really wanted to know.

The only time a Seller refuses an inspection on the house is if it’s a cheapie renovation project that has issues. An inspection even for investors is a must, some people are inexperienced and may take the gamble but it’s not worth it. For a home inspection and roughly $500, you’ll know about the roof attic crawl space major utilities electrical plumbing and get a sewer scope to check the pipes. If you have a huge tree on the lot, a cracked sewer line could be 20k up to fix, imagine if you have to tear up the street and a tree to dig up a line and reinstall it. All of the items mentioned are not cheap, why would you risk it? It has happened to me twice! And the first time I was the unknowing idiot who had to foot the bill, I always had it checked in the future, the next time I got the seller to pay for it, lucky no tree, seller gave me 10k I got it done for 3500. Inspections used wisely should always benefit you, pick out 5-10 issues and tell the seller to address them or give you a cash discount.

 

[mandm]

That's a given. But the question still stands: if YOU were selling this aircraft would you let any potential buyer perform any test/inspection by any person they want for any reason on your aircraft?

If I’m selling my plane, I wouldn’t want someone to pull off the wings to do an eddy current, I would have that done by my mechanic rather than someone I don’t know who could mess something up during an invasive inspection. But it’s like opening a can of worms too once it’s discovered it has to be fixed and no one will want to buy the plane.

On the other hand as a buyer, if I’m buying a Piper, and it’s close to the 5000 hour AD, I will first know Piper has the spar issue by knowing the plane I’m searching for (FAA website has a huge list of ADs you can easily get by putting in the plane model number), so any offers I made would say hey how about this much subject to prebuy and successful eddy current. Then if you find deal breakers you may ask the seller to fix them and get an annual sign off and split the cost 50/50. Now if your plane has 48 x 100hrs inspections that is a trainer and the wing spar is a real consideration and probably why they are selling it now. 200hours for a owner used plane might be 2000hours you have to do the calculation so it might be non issue to you but for resale later on it will be an issue. It really counts by the number of 100hrs inspections not the total time. The plane I bought was not used as a trainer so it would never meet the 5000 factored service hours unless I did a leaseback and it would still need several thousand hours.

 

[Hang 4]

What is the total time on the airframe and how many 100 hour inspections have been logged? I strongly suspect the AP that is talking about an inspection due in 200 hours is not calculating Factored Service Hours, but rather total airframe time. I suspect the total airframe time is 4,800 hours which is 200 hours shy of when the Factored Service Hours need to be calculated NOT when the inspection is required by the AD.

 

[Joe_B1]

That's a given. But the question still stands: if YOU were selling this aircraft would you let any potential buyer perform any test/inspection by any person they want for any reason on your aircraft?

That's not the point, this is not carte Blanche to rip the plane apart. The AD is real, the inspection will have to be performed regardless. The buyer is aware of the looming requirement and the potential financial cost if things fail. To answer your question directly, I would not let someone rip into my plane and perform any test/inspection but if I wanted to sell the aircraft, I would negotiate an arrangement.

 

[Bell206]

To answer your question directly, I would not let someone rip into my plane and perform any test/inspection but if I wanted to sell the aircraft, I would negotiate an arrangement.

Thank you. This is the key point and one that I always recommend to owners. However, my recommendation usually only includes negotiating the inspection cost as part of the purchase price and not performing it prior to sale. It is not the check itself that is usually worrisome but the maintenance required to get to that check or inspection that can cause the issue like a broken stud, stuck bolt, or worse. But if you as the seller were to allow the physical inspection to be performed by potential buyer then you should have a separate agreement in place that will cover any contingencies in performing that inspection and by who.

 

[Bell206]

I wouldn’t want someone to pull off the wings to do an eddy current,

FYI: no wing removal required for AD 2020-26-16. Just 4 bolts need to be removed (2 per wing) for the inspection which can be accomplished with the wings installed in most cases.

if I’m buying a Piper, and it’s close to the 5000 hour AD,

And that is still the unknown as questioned above of what that "due in 200 hours" refers too. Is it 200hrs till the SB1345 5000 TIS compliance requirement? 200hrs till AD2020-26-16 factoring requirement? 200hrs till the factored 5000 FHS compliance limit? We know its not the AD unknown factored hours requirement because that was/is due within 100 hours or 60 days. There still is a lot of confusion out there on this AD even now so without the specifics on the "200hrs" comment the buyer might have been on solid ground refusing the inspection.

 

[Joe_B1]

Thank you. This is the key point and one that I always recommend to owners. However, my recommendation usually only includes negotiating the inspection cost as part of the purchase price and not performing it prior to sale. It is not the check itself that is usually worrisome but the maintenance required to get to that check or inspection that can cause the issue like a broken stud, stuck bolt, or worse. But if you as the seller were to allow the physical inspection to be performed by potential buyer then you should have a separate agreement in place that will cover any contingencies in performing that inspection and by who.

I bought an Archer a couple of years ago, it was in a similar situation as the OP plane, was a trainer in a past life and was close to the required inspection time. The seller and I negotiated that he would pay for the eddy current inspection and if satisfactory, the price of the plane would be increased by half the cost. As it turned out, it passed and I paid for half.

 

[Clip4]

This is a rather standard inspection clause in a sales agreement.

Pre-purchase Inspection. After the signing of this Agreement and the payment of the deposit into escrow, the Buyer shall have the right to perform a pre-purchase inspection of the Aircraft. Such inspection shall be at the Buyer's expense and may be performed by a individual(s) of Buyer's choice, so long as he/she/they hold current Airframe and Powerplant mechanic certificates issued by the Federal Aviation Administration. The inspection shall be performed at ______________ Airport.

The purpose of a pre purchase inspection is to determine if the aircraft needs costly repairs. If the aircraft has a potential costly AD pending, it seems to me the buyer is authorized to have the spar inspected as part of the pre purchase inspection at his expense and further permission from the owner is not required.

 

[Unit74]

Curious. If you were the seller of this aircraft would you approve any potential buyer to perform this inspection by anyone of his choice? Would you let him pull a engine cylinder to make sure there was no internal corrosion? Or perform any other test/inspection on your airplane? Where would you draw the line as a seller?

The eddy current in question is non-destructive and it’s an AD. Pulling the engine apart takes it to an entirely different level. You know as well as I do you can borescope an engine, so the counter-argument is not in the same category. If a buyer wanted to take the engine apart as part of a prebuy, I’d find out how much a tear down and reassembly would cost, and expect a cash deposit of that amount, including all parts necessary like crush washers and gaskets. If they don’t like that, there is always the borescope option.

My point is that if they are going to spend several hundred thousand or more on a plane, they have every right to ensure they are getting the goods advertised. The depth of inspection will be up to them, and fully at their cost. What I as the seller must do is ensure that THEIR inspection does not result in MY airplane being left at shop in parts with me holding the bill. Not gonna happen. Cash, upfront, prebuy is prepaid and anything beyond that scope is PREPAID by the buyer. If that’s offensive to the buyer, they picked the wrong airplane to buy.

 

[Bell206]

What I as the seller must do is ensure that THEIR inspection does not result in MY airplane being left at shop in parts with me holding the bill. Not gonna happen. Cash, upfront, prebuy is prepaid and anything beyond that scope is PREPAID by the buyer. If that’s offensive to the buyer, they picked the wrong airplane to buy.

This is the answer I was looking for. Now how far you want to defend that position is between you and potential buyer. Unfortunately I've seen too many issues develop when allowing "obscure" work to be performed on a 30+ year old, used aircraft. But if you believe having the money for the AD inspection upfront will mitigate any possibilities that arise, thats fine. My recommendation would be for the potential buyer to accept the entire cost of the AD inspection as a discount against the aircraft sale price.

You know as well as I do you can borescope an engine,

If a buyer wanted to take the engine apart as part of a prebuy,

FYI: while I stated to simply pull a cylinder vs take the engine apart, there are some engines out there that a borescope will not see all areas needed and only pulling one or two cylinders will.

 

[Bell206]

This is a rather standard inspection clause in a sales agreement.

Provided you’re using a sales agreement. Regardless, the standard is also to define/agree upon the scope of the prebuy by both parties prior to the inspection starts as there is no industry or regulatory standard for a prebuy inspection. For example, I offer/offered two levels of prebuy: a conformity check with a visual airworthy check per the established aircraft preflight procedure, or a detailed conformity/airworthy check with a signed 100hr per Part 43.15 and Appx D. Both are considered prebuy inspections. What it boils down to is each person performing/requesting a prebuy basically develops their own list. So to use your AD example unless the seller agreed to the compliance of the AD as part of the prebuy inspection you get into some serious gray area if you go beyond what was agreed on between the parties. If on the other hand the buyer allows open season on his aircraft then that’s his problem if you comply with the AD. But just remember a prebuy is more than looking for costly repairs. Looking at the conformity side is just as important if not more in some cases.

 

[mandm]

Taking apart an airplane is opening a can of worms, but each person has their own risk assessment for financial and personal safety. If you risk getting a bad engine and 2 bad wing spars that’s an easy 80-90k. You’d be better off buying a brand new Cirrus with a warranty and selling it a few years later, the actual cost will be much less albeit you have the 1 year wait with a new airplane. Decisions decisions haha