Piper Arrow IV T tail. What's the story on this plane?

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docmirror

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I'm in a position to grab up a Piper Arrow IV, PA-28RT-201 for a song. It's been sitting for a while, no damage to the airframe, it looks all intact. Paint is actually not bad, and very little visible corrosion. The engine is out, but not pickled. It's just been sitting in a werehouse for years. Prop/governor is off, looks to be all there.

I wonder what the value is for something like this, and how they fly? I've flown a Cherokee some, but not the Arrow. Radios are vintage King, in decent shape but nothing serious. Has a wing leveler A/P that I think is coupled to the Nav 1. Engine is mid-time, but since it's been sitting it'll prolly have to be gone through.

Obviously, will need tires, tubes, brakes, and fuel system clean up, batt, and some seals. I'm going to do most of the work except the interior engine bits.

Wondering if this is worth picking up at around $8-10k? Looks like with engine and prop refurb that's gonna run around $15k depending. Might be able to get it in the air for a bit over $20k unless things go haywire.

My A&P/IA works casually and charges about $36/hour, but we work together on stuff so he's actually mostly doing oversight.

Go ahead, I can take it. How crazy am I? BTW, if I don't buy it they will start parting it out in a few months.
 
I don't have any MX experience with it, but I flew a Turbo Arrow IV for awhile and really liked it. People seem to crap on the T-Tail Arrows, but I thought they flew fine - just landed a little differently.

I say effing go for it, and make a thread about it like the Jet Ski one. :)
 
This isn't a turbo, it's a NA 1980 model. The main reason I'm interested is the cost of course, and it's one of the few planes with a working AC onboard. Yes - I'm aware of the lower useful load. It's just two of us and a dog.
 
I've flown the Arrow IV quite a bit and I must say, I really enjoyed it. Some people try to portrait the T Tail like its going to kill you. Its not.
 
My first job was in a PA28RT T tail. Flew great, good crosswind plane, once you learn the energy of that plane you can really go into a approach at warp speed and cross the threshold right a vref with little effort.

Sweet plane.
 
My thoughts, based on over 150 hours in rented T-tail Turbo Arrows years ago ... they fly just like low-tail Arrows (or Dakotas or Archers), except:

1. The book says for a normal takeoff, accelerate on the ground to 65-75 KIAS. It'll be more like 75. The stabilator, which is 13% smaller in span and area than that on a Dakota or Archer, is up high, out of the energized propwash, and is not very effective in a level attitude on the ground. Once the nose comes up, and the stabilator dips down and takes a bite of that propwash, it suddenly becomes very effective. Thus you might overcontrol in pitch a bit on takeoff until you get the hang of it. Likewise on landing, as speed bleeds off the stabilator loses effectiveness more quickly than does the low tail, and the nosewheel tends to plop down rather firmly.

2. It tends to wag its tail in turbulence, much like a short-body Bonanza.

Otherwise, it's an honest, comfortable traveling machine. Cabin is identical to the Dakota and Archer. 72 gallons of usable fuel feeding only 200 hp gives it long legs.
 
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I'm sold. I'll give it a go, and see if we can get it for dirt cheap. Still a bunch of hoops to jump through including back storage. Just want to know if all the grinding is going to be worth it in the end. The interior looks pretty good considering it's been sitting for so long. Musty, but all there and all in place.
 
Like everyone else has said, it have a few different characteristics, but it's overall a plane that I very much enjoy to fly. No real complaints.
 
Pilawt said:
My thoughts, based on over 150 hours in rented T-tail Turbo Arrows years ago ... they fly just like low-tail Arrows (or Dakotas or Archers), except:

1. The book says for a normal takeoff, accelerate on the ground to 65-75 KIAS. It'll be more like 75. The stabilator, which is 13% smaller in span and area than that on a Dakota or Archer, is up high, out of the energized propwash, and is not very effective in a level attitude on the ground. Once the nose comes up, and the stabilator dips down and takes a bite of that propwash, it suddenly becomes very effective. Thus you might overcontrol in pitch a bit on takeoff until you get the hang of it. Likewise on landing, as speed bleeds off the stabilator loses effectiveness more quickly than does the low tail, and the nosewheel tends to plop down rather firmly.

2. It tends to wag its tail in turbulence, much like a short-body Bonanza.

Otherwise, it's an honest, comfortable traveling machine. Cabin is identical to the Dakota and Archer. 72 gallons of usable fuel feeding only 200 hp gives it long legs.
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Great description ....:thumbsup:..

To the OP... Those motors can get REAL expensive to overhaul.... Probably why it was sitting the way it was....:dunno:......:rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
Great description ....:thumbsup:..

To the OP... Those motors can get REAL expensive to overhaul.... Probably why it was sitting the way it was....:dunno:......:rolleyes:
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Yeah, I think 20K is way optimistic. Triple that if it was the turbo version.

I've flown the IV and owned a straight tailed III. I prefer the III personally, it has a little more elevator authority landing speeds, but I would take either one if it were given to me.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Yeah, I think 20K is way optimistic. Triple that if it was the turbo version.

I've flown the IV and owned a straight tailed III. I prefer the III personally, it has a little more elevator authority landing speeds, but I would take either one if it were given to me.
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If someone tries to charge you $60,000 to overhaul that engine, you're being taken for one heck of a ride!

Check out heart of Texas engine overhauls.
 
cleaning snow off the tail is a pain. Other than that it's fine

i didn't know there was a t-tail version that is non turbo, learn something new every day
 
Prefer the straight tail arrows. Better takeoff and landing habits. The t tail takes a little getting used to.
 
Pilawt said:
1. The book says for a normal takeoff, accelerate on the ground to 65-75 KIAS. It'll be more like 75. The stabilator, which is 13% smaller in span and area than that on a Dakota or Archer, is up high, out of the energized propwash, and is not very effective in a level attitude on the ground. Once the nose comes up, and the stabilator dips down and takes a bite of that propwash, it suddenly becomes very effective. Thus you might overcontrol in pitch a bit on takeoff until you get the hang of it. Likewise on landing, as speed bleeds off the stabilator loses effectiveness more quickly than does the low tail, and the nosewheel tends to plop down rather firmly.
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Except for slightly higher speeds, that summarizes well my experience with a T-tail Lance.
 
James331 said:
If someone tries to charge you $60,000 to overhaul that engine, you're being taken for one heck of a ride!

Check out heart of Texas engine overhauls.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking. It's not far from me, and I can go over and watch the process from time to time.
 
JHW said:
cleaning snow off the tail is a pain. Other than that it's fine

i didn't know there was a t-tail version that is non turbo, learn something new every day
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I thought the same...:confused:
 
shop this.....A good flying one shouldn't bring more than $45-50K (T-tails bring a few AMUs less). You didn't say what the panel was like.....if it's updated it might be worth more.

As this one sits....plan on $35-40K to get her flying.:yikes:

IMHO...this one is a mechanic's special....not for the faint of heart. :no:
docmirror said:
I'm in a position to grab up a Piper Arrow IV, PA-28RT-201 for a song. It's been sitting for a while, no damage to the airframe, it looks all intact. Paint is actually not bad, and very little visible corrosion. The engine is out, but not pickled. It's just been sitting in a werehouse for years. Prop/governor is off, looks to be all there.

I wonder what the value is for something like this, and how they fly? I've flown a Cherokee some, but not the Arrow. Radios are vintage King, in decent shape but nothing serious. Has a wing leveler A/P that I think is coupled to the Nav 1. Engine is mid-time, but since it's been sitting it'll prolly have to be gone through.

Obviously, will need tires, tubes, brakes, and fuel system clean up, batt, and some seals. I'm going to do most of the work except the interior engine bits.

Wondering if this is worth picking up at around $8-10k? Looks like with engine and prop refurb that's gonna run around $15k depending. Might be able to get it in the air for a bit over $20k unless things go haywire.

My A&P/IA works casually and charges about $36/hour, but we work together on stuff so he's actually mostly doing oversight.

Go ahead, I can take it. How crazy am I? BTW, if I don't buy it they will start parting it out in a few months.
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Panel is basic. There's no parts missing except the removed engine. It doesn't need paint, and it doesn't need interior work. Mostly just cleaning and maybe some rubber hoses. The deal is the engine, acc, and prop. Airframe time is about 1800, so it would be a low time plane with a 20-50 hour engine. I'd fly it enough to get past the infant mortality stage.

I just can't see more than about $25k in refurb work unless the prop is completely trashed. The key with these deals is buying the plane at the right price. If it goes over $8k I might pass.
 
docmirror said:
Panel is basic. There's no parts missing except the removed engine. It doesn't need paint, and it doesn't need interior work. Mostly just cleaning and maybe some rubber hoses. The deal is the engine, acc, and prop. Airframe time is about 1800, so it would be a low time plane with a 20-50 hour engine. I'd fly it enough to get past the infant mortality stage.

I just can't see more than about $25k in refurb work unless the prop is completely trashed. The key with these deals is buying the plane at the right price. If it goes over $8k I might pass.
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problem is......if I'm the seller....I get $8K for the engine as it sits....and we haven't even started parting the airframe.

good luck wit dat....:D

I'd guess the number they're looking to see will start in the low $20's.....:mad2:
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
problem is......if I'm the seller....I get $8K for the engine as it sits....and we haven't even started parting the airframe.

good luck wit dat....:D

I'd guess the number they're looking to see will start in the low $20's.....:mad2:
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agreeed. 99% of the time, an owner thinks his decomposing plane is worth more than it is. No experience with T tails, but I've heard people say that were not preferred. Not really sure on the specifics. If you see corrosion on the outside, I'd look very hard for it on the inside.
 
JHW said:
i didn't know there was a t-tail version that is non turbo, learn something new every day
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Depends on the year of manufacture.

From the 1979 through 1982 model years, both the turbo (PA-28RT-201T) and non-turbo (PA-28RT-201) options were available. From 1983 through 1987 only the turbo was offered.

For 1988 the non-turbo version was reintroduced, but this was around the time that they reverted to the low tail, and only two or three Arrows were being built each year anyway.

pa-28rt-201_1980.jpg


pa-28rt-201t_1980.jpg
 
Well, for the purchase, I may not even be dealing with the registered owner. The key to the puzzle here is that it's been sitting, in a T hangar for many, many years. Get it?

Also, my specific interest in this bird is the AC system in the plane already. Where I live, a plane with AC is a jewel to be hastened after.
 
If you pick it up for $8-10k and you have a complete engine core, it's hard to wrong.
 
docmirror said:
I just can't see more than about $25k ...
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Yeah. The Law of Remodeling Projects applies: It will cost double your initial estimates for money and time, even if you have considered The Law of Remodeling Projects.

Specifically, plan $20K for the engine as it is probably corroded inside and will need disassembly, a cam, and lifters. If you can have your mechanic pull a jug and check the internals with a bore scope prior to purchase, you will know.

& if it needs cam and lifters, then that's like pulling a string on a sweater. Might as well do a full overhaul. Now $25-30K.
 
My thoughts are if you can get it for less than 10k then do it, as long as there are no hidden surprises like corrosion in the engine or aluminum.

If you get it and then find out that it wont work out for you, then parting it out is still an option.

This is my thoughts, I would go into the plane expecting to part it out. But if it came together I would fly it for a few years then sell it.

Keep us informed on your progress..!!
 
I'm sure the AC works great as well...:rolleyes:
 
A word of caution on the AC belt and Alt belts. When Piper added AC to the PA28 line the engine was unchanged. They added a second groove on the ring gear and made both belts smaller in the process. One or both of the belts has a bad habit of inverting unless the belt tension is perfect. This was so bad at one point that owners would have a couple extra belts tied to the engine so they could be installed in a pinch to get them home, thus not requiring removal of the Arrow Prop which is a total PITA.

I have heard similar comments about landing and take offs in the T tail, but most that own them love them.

Don't know if I would like having to have a step ladder to preflight my airplane though!!!!
 
I've heard similar about the belt issues when the AC was installed and in use. I'll prolly do the same and keep a spare set around the nose of the case with some safety wire for emer. I wish it weren't a T tail, but it is what it is, and that's the way things go in the south.
 
Piper advertised the T-tail as having less vibration, and less trim change with gear and flap changes, since the stabilator was up high out of the propwash in cruise, and away from flap and gear airflow changes. Those were all probably true.

Looking at all of the aerodynamic gimmicks on the T-tail stabilator -- fences, fillets and leading-edge slots -- I'd guess that Piper engineers had some handling gremlins to deal with in flight test. But T-tails were all the rage in the late '70s, so they had to get it done.

Aesthetically the T-tail Arrow is very nice.
 
Well, I had a nice chat with the property mgr. He wants to help out, but he's a bit clueless on the process. So, being the faithful civic helper that I am - I offered to do the paperwork for him and not bill them for the work, if we could come to some kind of accommodation.

We have a meeting scheduled for Tue and I'll know a lot more then. Right now it's kinda nebulous but sometimes good deals start out that way.
 
Is the registration up to date? That could be another complication.....with airworthiness.
 
I think I'll be leaving the details out at this time, until we get some paperwork done and I can't be poached.
 
It sounds like the airport is trying to sell the airplane to pay hangar debt? Is it going to come with logs? if not, remember all the ADs have to be brought up to date...and then you're not going to get what you think for it at the end of it
 
Lien-Sale is a pretty straight forward process in most states. Usually a few ads placed and 30-90 days and you're done.
 
Well, sadly this deal just went south. The mgr told me what he HAS to get out of the deal to make it work, and he's way out of luck. It's going to go to the south field for a few years then be parted out I guess.

Oh well, it was a nice idea.
 
Doc, make a tender to the airport sponsor... you never know...
 
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