I ALWAYS look before taking any active, regardless what the tower says...
Running out of gas is dumb....
Using up 8000+ feet of runway to get a champ down safely is downright idiotic.
Pilots Talking on the Radio
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Running out of gas is dumb....
Using up 8000+ feet of runway to get a champ down safely is downright idiotic.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Steve Foley
Pattern Altitude
If he spent that $200 on gas instead of a handheld, he wouldn't have run out.
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Pre-takeoff checklist
In the Midwest we usually end up hearing the guys life story.
"Crete area traffic advisory. I am 10.0236 nautical miles to the west north west flying at at altitude of 4,562 statutory feet above mean sea level, flying a 1956 Cessna 172 that we modified into a 170. Our plans in the near future are to enter the 45 degree angle to access the down wind portion of the standard traffic pattern for runway 170 at the Crete airport. Our angle might be closer to 48 degrees however so we will let you know. This has been a Crete area traffic advisory, any area in the area monitoring this frequency please advise. ".
If you want to **** off everyone else on the frequency, just reply "say again?"
Also, he's missing the details of where he's going for lunch. He'll have to make another call to let us know.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
I get the jist of what you're saying, but generally speaking running out of fuel isn't the plan (if there was a plan at all).
DouglasBader
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Doug
At least have the decency to not let your radio do your job for you. You have eyeballs. You're required by law to look out the window and see and avoid other traffic. You should know enough to do that before taking off, regardless of whether a clearance is issued. Even in a fully equipped aircraft like the B747, we note that we're clear before taxiing onto the runway at any airport (clear left, clear right, final's clear). Why try to put the blame on everyone else?
Doesn't the aircraft landing have the right of way?
Doesn't the aircraft with an emergency have the right of way?
Is there a requirement to have a radio on board?
Did the individual fail to plan for an emergency by not having a radio? Did he run out of fuel because he failed to plan? Do you know whether he had a fuel leak, or another reason for not being able to use the fuel? It's very possible to run out of fuel with fuel on board. Decency has nothing to do with it.
Perhaps it was more important for him to fly, rather than to talk.
When was your last forced landing in a conventional gear airplane without an electrical system?
Sounds like you had a golden opportunity to learn a valuable lesson. From your commentary, it sounds like you may not have fully availed yourself.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. The latter is not the priority.
If your'e going to accept a takeoff clearance, at least have the decency to look out the window.
Ah...you did. So what are you whining about?
It is, isn't it?
Of course, flying in an aircraft without an electrical system carries no such requirement, and it's certainly not the priority in an emergency or a forced landing. There might just be higher priorities.
Ensuring one is equipped for instrument flight is not at all the same as a perceived need to carry a handheld radio in a light fabric aircraft with no electrical system.
Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.
Aviate first.
poadeleted21
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I get the jist of what you're saying, but generally speaking running out of fuel isn't the plan (if there was a plan at all).
Not running out of fuel should be in the plan, if it's not stay on the ground.
poadeleted21
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Why yes, a radio is required to operate in Class D unless ATC has made other arrangements for you, given the controllers reaction... I can guarantee there was no arrangement made. The pilot was an idiot, defend him and his rights to be reckless and endanger others if you want.
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Velocity173
I hate it when people don't know what to read back so they try and read back everything. Read the AIM and the GP! Of course I'm not saying don't read back if there needs to be clarity, just don't tie up the freq with extraneous crap.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
We had one today, really jacked:
"Mt Hawley traffic Cessna 12345 8 west to cross midfield, left traffic 36.
If you're WEST of the field, you're never going to go to cross the runway. So was this idiot to the WEST or to the EAST? Where do we look?
"Going to guns....."
"Mt Hawley traffic Cessna 12345 8 west to cross midfield, left traffic 36.
If you're WEST of the field, you're never going to go to cross the runway. So was this idiot to the WEST or to the EAST? Where do we look?
"Going to guns....."
I don't know that I'd ascribe Top Gun syndrome to GA pilots in general. But everyone is taught to Aviate, Navigate and then Communicate. right? If a person gets a little behind on the first two, the communicating will suffer. And that tends to mean talking fast - but at least they are talking.
I think it's also useful to remember that flying in a traffic pattern is see and avoid in Class E space. A NORDO person has just as much right to use a runway as a person with the latest and greatest stuff in their panel. Eyeballs are better than ears, in other words.
I do wonder that gain staging might be an issue with modern headset electret mics feeding an intercom that feeds a comm radio. I do hear what I'd consider overmodulated transmissions. And I'm not convinced that the latest multifunction boxes have as good comm radios as a good old KX-170 or RT-385. But in any case, there's not nearly as much radio traffic today as there was 10 or 15 years ago, so it's really probably not an issue.
denverpilot
Tied Down
You'd best be doing it at towered airports too. No reason to change procedures, and controllers can and have made fatal mistakes.
Why qualify it? Look. Every. Time.
Sounds like you did, and everything worked out fine.
Emergencies have priority over you. NORDO or not.
Always been that way.
poadeleted21
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I know the regs, and I know how long they've been that way and I know what the rules are for NORDO aircraft.
I looked, I saw him, I didn't get killed. Score one for me. 2 other things would have helped too. 1) him letting tower know he was coming in via a radio call 2) not running out of gas. I'm 1 for 1 and he's 0 for 2 but I'm the one who shouldn't be complaining? Pull the mixture, turn off the avionics master and glide it to KDEN and let me know how it works out for you. Ask the heavies how they feel about your fuel planning and choice of radio communication equipment. we were one unbroken link in an accident chain from wadding up together. I had to break it with the one link I was in charge of, how 'bout a little help? Is that too much to ask? If a radio can provide that help, and break the accident chain, spend the $100 and put it in the plane. Tell me about the regs all you want and I'll take you to the cemetery and show you person after person who followed the regs to get there.
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
In no particular order, my peeves are:
1) 90% of the things people use guard for
2) Full read-backs in place of "wilco" or "roger"
3) Controllers who play lil Wayne on the radio. I don't care how you talk off-duty, but you need to annunciate your words at work.
4) Tower controllers who think that I can hear a word that they are saying over the house party going on in the background.
#3 & 4 mostly just apply to military fields, where I run into this more often than not.
1) 90% of the things people use guard for
2) Full read-backs in place of "wilco" or "roger"
3) Controllers who play lil Wayne on the radio. I don't care how you talk off-duty, but you need to annunciate your words at work.
4) Tower controllers who think that I can hear a word that they are saying over the house party going on in the background.
#3 & 4 mostly just apply to military fields, where I run into this more often than not.
I think the last time some one actually said, "Wilco" was either Spencer Tracy or Van Johnson...
BTW, I've never confused a FAA-stafffed or contract tower for the Delta House, either.
How did you come up with your gripe list?
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Velocity173
I'd agree with all of this to some extent. As you said a lot has to do with military field though. At NBC we had a lot of student controllers. Some were just out of high school and mumbled words or simply didn't speak loudly. Generally those guys don't stick with ATC and make it to the "Big Leagues." There's no excuse for the background noise. We had a bunch of student controllers waiting around for PARs and sometimes things get noisy. The Sup needs to get control and when traffic picks up to tell those guys to hang out somewhere else. Guard gets out of hand up there because everybody thinks all aircraft are monitoring it so they use it for control instructions. I don't know how bad Giant Killer is but Sealord goes nuts with guard! The readback thing is a pet peeve of mine as well. Too often the freq gets tied up because someone is trying to read back something verbatim that only requires a roger. Then they screw up the readback which only makes things worse. In the Instrument Examiner Course the instructors used to hound us on it. "Why did you read that back" I dunno. "What parts of those instructions are you required to read back." I dunno. Wilco is a good word. One that isn't used very often but good. Affirmative is as well but unfortunately a lot of pilots use roger in it's place.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Curious what you think those are. I think the most annoying thing about guard is the guard police... and the guard police police.
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
Just thought about the things that routinely annoy me almost every day I fly. Not scientific, but clearly McFly knows what I'm talking about. Again, most of it is mil specific, but we all share the same airspace and our controllers work non mil folks as well. @ McFly, yeah, GK goes full retard when things get busy, as did Beaver when I was flying out west.
As for the guard thing, 85% of what I ever hear is "radio check on guard.....1,2,3....radio check on guard.....1,2,3....". It goes on and on, and repeats itself several times. If I can find that guy, I will go full guard police on him/her. I have a feeling he sits in a FACSFAC facility and has no idea how annoying he is being. The other 5% is the well-intentioned approach/center controller who is tryiing to raise someone who has gotten lost in a freq switch. This is fine by me, but after making the call 3-4 times, there is no reason to keep it up. The guy isn't up on guard.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Know Dan?
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I think these are legitimate things to be broadcast on guard. It's not as if the guard frequency is congested.
The annoying interaction I hear quite often is...
Airplane A - blah blah blah (obviously had the wrong transmitter selected)
Airplane B - YOU'RE ON GUARD!
Airplane C - SO ARE YOU!
Airplane D - GUAAAAAARD!
gkainz
Final Approach
along the same lines as the Guard Police (and Guard Police Police), the 10 people who pipe up with "STUCK MIC!" (after listening in long enough to see if it's a YouTube candidate) ... folks - the guy with the stuck mic can't hear your STUCK MIC warning because ....
wait for it ....
HIS MIC IS STUCK!
However, if you transmitted "STUCK MIC ON 122.xx" on GUARD, then maybe that warning would do some good, but then we're stuck in a loop with the Guard Police.
wait for it ....
HIS MIC IS STUCK!
However, if you transmitted "STUCK MIC ON 122.xx" on GUARD, then maybe that warning would do some good, but then we're stuck in a loop with the Guard Police.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
I always get a chuckle out of that
Steve Foley
Pattern Altitude
Maybe he'll hear it if I yell loud enough into my mic.
Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
I use it frequently. And I'd wager anyone who has military time does too. It is concise, and relays that you understood and will comply with the instruction in one brief word.
DouglasBader
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Doug
I use it all the time.
"Report five miles."
"Wilco."
bflynn
Final Approach
In the Midwest we usually end up hearing the guys life story.
"Crete area traffic advisory. I am 10.0236 nautical miles to the west north west flying at at altitude of 4,562 statutory feet above mean sea level, flying a 1956 Cessna 172 that we modified into a 170. Our plans in the near future are to enter the 45 degree angle to access the down wind portion of the standard traffic pattern for runway 170 at the Crete airport. Our angle might be closer to 48 degrees however so we will let you know. This has been a Crete area traffic advisory, any area in the area monitoring this frequency please advise. ".
Short and sweet is better than long and windy.
Yes, but there are people that would call this wordy.
Crete area traffic, Cessna 12345 is 10 to the north west at 4500 descending, maneuvering for the 45 to downwind for 17.
So no matter what you say, someone will be upset with it. Just be brief, say it clearly and always check for a stuck mic.
Swampfox201
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Todd W.
We had an older lady who ran UNICOM and gave airport advisories. I can still remember her screaming at a pilot over 122.8 "YOUR MICS STUCK, YOUR MICS STUCK!".
It was hilarious!
DouglasBader
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Doug
"Crete traffic, Skyhawk12345 ten north, four thousand five hundred, plan left traffic one seven crete."
"Crete Traffic, Skyhawk12345 departing one seven, left turnout."
Simple.
Far better than "Crete traffic, Cessna One Two Three Four Five Niner Puppylove is about ten miles to the north, northwest over a red barn, near the Walmart, heading one two zero, descending out of four thousand five hundred feet. We're descending down to one thousand five hundred feet, and we'll be planning a left downwind entry on the forty-five for runway one seven after we overfly the field at mid field then come back around to enter the downwind. We'll be doing a touch and go. My favorite color is green. I'm wearing a tan shirt with plaid pants and socks to match. My sign is Cancer and my turn-ons are singing frogs, things that go bump in the night, and the number seven. We're about nine miles to the north now, still descending, so any traffic in the area please advise me so we don't run into each other, crete traffic."
"Crete Traffic, Skyhawk12345 departing one seven, left turnout."
Simple.
Far better than "Crete traffic, Cessna One Two Three Four Five Niner Puppylove is about ten miles to the north, northwest over a red barn, near the Walmart, heading one two zero, descending out of four thousand five hundred feet. We're descending down to one thousand five hundred feet, and we'll be planning a left downwind entry on the forty-five for runway one seven after we overfly the field at mid field then come back around to enter the downwind. We'll be doing a touch and go. My favorite color is green. I'm wearing a tan shirt with plaid pants and socks to match. My sign is Cancer and my turn-ons are singing frogs, things that go bump in the night, and the number seven. We're about nine miles to the north now, still descending, so any traffic in the area please advise me so we don't run into each other, crete traffic."
Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
rainsux
Line Up and Wait
Or; they guy with the stuck mic ... that rambles on & on about how those guys in
the tower must be asleep ... and how they should pay attention ... then discusses
with his pax (pilot) about what they should do ... and begin it ... and halt ... and try
again ... only to halt again ... to begin bitching about why the tower won't answer.
the tower must be asleep ... and how they should pay attention ... then discusses
with his pax (pilot) about what they should do ... and begin it ... and halt ... and try
again ... only to halt again ... to begin bitching about why the tower won't answer.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Never said you didn't. I said the system worked because you did it right.
How you "feel" about it, is irrelevant. You can chew the guy out on the ground all you like, as long as you looked and didn't get squished by him.
It's your choice to "feel" like it worked and you're alive or to be cranky at him and you're still alive. Same outcome.
No point in fretting over the lower half of the bell curve. Just stay out of their way.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I can't tell you how happy I am to hear chatter on the radio. I flew for over a year hearing nothing. At least chatter means GA isn't dead, which was my fear for some time.
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
You're going to have to forgive me, but it has been a good while since I have flown a civilian aircraft. Do you not monitor guard? For us, our primary radio is always receiving guard, so it is broadcast on whatever frequency we are using directly on that radio. This is super annoying when you are trying to listen to something important, or more importantly, trying to talk on the aux radio which is being run over by whoever is rambling on guard on the front/pri radio.
As for the guard police, I agree. I'm not one of them. Making more comms to stop the comms doesn't make sense to me. I just swear to myself and de-select guard
For the stuck mic, I also agree....normally folks can't hear the very muted "stuck mic" comments when they are the offender. I had a particularly maddening episode recently, sweating my face off sitting in a 120 deg cockpit on the flight deck of the Truman, trying to call my rep and troubleshoot some hyd problem, and someone had a stuck mic. Eventually they gave up and rolled to a different freq but the dude rolled as well so we had the same issue. Jets on the ball, paddles being drowned out. Turned out it was our sister squadron who flies family model jets, with the flight doc in the back seat who was inadvertantly stepping on the transmit button (F/A-18F has the pri and aux transmit buttons on the floor in the rear cockpit where the rudder pedals would normally be). Yay.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
How did the guy with the stuck mic hear the freq change call? You guys operate duplex?
jpower
Cleared for Takeoff
I don't quite understand this stuck mic business. At least in the plane I fly with an SL-40, a different sound comes out of the headset when the PTT is pressed, so it's pretty darn near impossible to have a stuck mic and not know, unless you're totally zoned out. And if someone isn't calling you back, you're probably not completely zoned out. You'd be listening for him.
denverpilot
Tied Down
In many aircraft, depending on the audio panel setup and if side-tone levels are equal to the intercom levels, it's quite subtle.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I fly a civilian aircraft and we do monitor guard. However, it is not a requirement so we don't do it all the time. It's definitely not our primary frequency. I would say, in general, we start monitoring guard somewhere during the climb and stop monitoring about the time we get ATIS for the arrival airport. We only have two com radios. Also, if guard is talking over something we want to hear we turn it off.
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
You can hear a transmissions on the ARC-210 with a stuck mic....it's quiet but it is intelligible. Having (knock on wood) never stuck a mic myself, I'm not sure if the guy with the stuck mic can hear this as well, but as a nearby listener, you can. I guess this incident could support the theory that he/she can.
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
What I meant by pri freq was that our primary radio is initialized with guard selected.....ie we hear any guard transmissions over the top of whatever freq we have selected in that radio. We aren't actually up on 243.0/121.5, but we hear it anytime anyone makes a call on guard. That said, it is easily de-selected, so it's not a big deal, just annoying when you don't have the spare hand to do so (like flying close formation in IMC on an approach or something)
bigblockz8
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Gore
I personally have an easier time understanding calls in which the pilot has a foreign accent. Two of my CFI's (neither american born) had thick accents. I hear someone call out in the pattern and I have to wonder what language they were speaking. I think locale and the various minor accents can also complicate things.
Sometimes we get a boston pilot out this way and in the fbo everyone laughs at each call out. If you're a Georgia pilot in and out of ATL and then you go to JFK pretty sure the minor accent change adds confusion.
Sometimes we get a boston pilot out this way and in the fbo everyone laughs at each call out. If you're a Georgia pilot in and out of ATL and then you go to JFK pretty sure the minor accent change adds confusion.