PIC as Student Pilot on Solo flights?

Shamir

Shamir

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Shamir
Hi there folks,

Few months ago while training for the Private Pilot Certificate I went through my solo stages of Solo Around the pattern several times, Solo to the practice area 3 times, and 3 Solo XCs.

On my first solo flight, when I landed my instructor was waiting for me at the ramp, we secured the plane and went into the Flight School Lounge.

As he was signing my logbook, the Owner of the school which is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor, a man with thousands of hours and in Aviation since the 70s, He told my flight instructor I still couldn't Log PIC time because I wasn't rated in the Cessna 172 until I get my PPL.

My instructor and I believe that he was kind of insane saying that just because of the fact that every aircraft must have a PIC, and if I am flying SOLO, that should be me, not the instructor who is waiting for me on the ground.

What do you guys think about it? Are we right or is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor right?

After getting my ticket, the first thing I did was getting a checkout in the C172S (i've been flying the P and M models during my training) And after landing this guy said I could not log PIC as I was receiving Flight Training... I thought that being the sole manipulator of the controls all the time, and having my certificate already would allow me to log PIC time even though I'm receiving training from a CFI....

Any thoughts?
 
There's a spot on your paper student pilot certificate that says "A. To solo the following aircraft" and then a block next to it that says "Make and Model of Aircraft" where your CFI indicates those things. So, per the certificate being endorsed by your CFI you are indeed ok to fly that make and model as PIC per 14 CFR 61.51(e.)
 
Shamir said:
Hi there folks,

Few months ago while training for the Private Pilot Certificate I went through my solo stages of Solo Around the pattern several times, Solo to the practice area 3 times, and 3 Solo XCs.

On my first solo flight, when I landed my instructor was waiting for me at the ramp, we secured the plane and went into the Flight School Lounge.

As he was signing my logbook, the Owner of the school which is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor, a man with thousands of hours and in Aviation since the 70s, He told my flight instructor I still couldn't Log PIC time because I wasn't rated in the Cessna 172 until I get my PPL.

My instructor and I believe that he was kind of insane saying that just because of the fact that every aircraft must have a PIC, and if I am flying SOLO, that should be me, not the instructor who is waiting for me on the ground.

What do you guys think about it? Are we right or is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor right?

After getting my ticket, the first thing I did was getting a checkout in the C172S (i've been flying the P and M models during my training) And after landing this guy said I could not log PIC as I was receiving Flight Training... I thought that being the sole manipulator of the controls all the time, and having my certificate already would allow me to log PIC time even though I'm receiving training from a CFI....

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think he was jerking your chain. Probably does it to all student pilots.
 
Shamir said:
Hi there folks,

Few months ago while training for the Private Pilot Certificate I went through my solo stages of Solo Around the pattern several times, Solo to the practice area 3 times, and 3 Solo XCs.

On my first solo flight, when I landed my instructor was waiting for me at the ramp, we secured the plane and went into the Flight School Lounge.

As he was signing my logbook, the Owner of the school which is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor, a man with thousands of hours and in Aviation since the 70s, He told my flight instructor I still couldn't Log PIC time because I wasn't rated in the Cessna 172 until I get my PPL.

My instructor and I believe that he was kind of insane saying that just because of the fact that every aircraft must have a PIC, and if I am flying SOLO, that should be me, not the instructor who is waiting for me on the ground.

What do you guys think about it? Are we right or is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor right?

After getting my ticket, the first thing I did was getting a checkout in the C172S (i've been flying the P and M models during my training) And after landing this guy said I could not log PIC as I was receiving Flight Training... I thought that being the sole manipulator of the controls all the time, and having my certificate already would allow me to log PIC time even though I'm receiving training from a CFI....

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...


This was the same mantra flight schools provided 50 years ago --- comments were:
Students could log "dual" or "solo" not "PIC"
GADO reps tended to support that, too

Maybe an old-school hold-over?
 
The Chief CFI is either an idiot, and should stop instructing until he learns to read regulations, or he was testing you to see if you could debate him and win.

Either way, you can log it as PIC. I'll let you find the regulation, so that you can avoid the trap that idiot put himself into.

(mods: I didn't call the OP an idiot, I called the CFI an idiot. I think that's ok, and accurate).
 
I think I lost track of how many threads discuss PIC authority. I'm guilty of posting a question or two on it too, but man it's like there's one every other day.

To the OP, hope you figured it out. I had to fight a flight instructor who absolutely believed that (since I wasn't IFR rated), I couldn't log PIC time anytime I went into a cloud on an IFR flight plan with a II in the seat next to me.

Off topic I know, but there is some bad info floating around out there and usually its either because people aren't keeping up with the regs or some know-nothing CFI/DPE passes their personal beliefs off as the regs in the FAR.

Definitely read the FAR. Every single flight I did solo before I got my PPL, was PIC time.
 
As pointed out, the rules used to read that way (student pilots could log solo but not PIC time, it had nothing to do with being "rated" the sole manipulator rule only applied to private or better, later revised to recreational or better).

The Part 61 rewrite (effective in 1997), added the provision now in effect for student pilots to log PIC when solo.

There was always an argument as to whether student pilots on their checkride could log that time. Most people argued if they passed, they could.
 
flyingron said:
As pointed out, the rules used to read that way (student pilots could log solo but not PIC time, it had nothing to do with being "rated" the sole manipulator rule only applied to private or better, later revised to recreational or better).

The Part 61 rewrite (effective in 1997), added the provision now in effect for student pilots to log PIC when solo.

There was always an argument as to whether student pilots on their checkride could log that time. Most people argued if they passed, they could.
Click to expand...

So, at some point DPE's would actually assume PIC responsibilities on those checkrides? Mine made it a point to ask me "Who's PIC on this flight?" to which I responded "I am" and he agreed.

My understanding was that the examiner never wanted PIC responsibility on those flights (for a number of reasons).
 
Shamir said:
Hi there folks,

Few months ago while training for the Private Pilot Certificate I went through my solo stages of Solo Around the pattern several times, Solo to the practice area 3 times, and 3 Solo XCs.

On my first solo flight, when I landed my instructor was waiting for me at the ramp, we secured the plane and went into the Flight School Lounge.

As he was signing my logbook, the Owner of the school which is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor, a man with thousands of hours and in Aviation since the 70s, He told my flight instructor I still couldn't Log PIC time because I wasn't rated in the Cessna 172 until I get my PPL.

My instructor and I believe that he was kind of insane saying that just because of the fact that every aircraft must have a PIC, and if I am flying SOLO, that should be me, not the instructor who is waiting for me on the ground.

What do you guys think about it? Are we right or is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor right?

After getting my ticket, the first thing I did was getting a checkout in the C172S (i've been flying the P and M models during my training) And after landing this guy said I could not log PIC as I was receiving Flight Training... I thought that being the sole manipulator of the controls all the time, and having my certificate already would allow me to log PIC time even though I'm receiving training from a CFI....

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

What everyone said. You can log PIC in both cases.

What I find interesting is that they made you get a checkout on C172S even with you training on P/M... I'd be annoyed.
 
Just go back in and log PIC on all those flights. Or I think I added a new line item noting just PIC without adding to the total time. In the comments I put something like "log book correction from flight on x day of xx month"
 
Someone has to be the PIC on every flight...period.
 
If your flying the aircraft solo,you would have to be the PIC,it's only common sense
 
Caramon13 said:
So, at some point DPE's would actually assume PIC responsibilities on those checkrides?
Click to expand...
What does that have to do with anything? Being PIC is not a necessary NOR sufficient condition to log PIC time.
My understanding was that the examiner never wanted PIC responsibility on those flights (for a number of reasons).
Click to expand...

The FAA specifically dissuades examiners from being PIC on exams.
 
I've heard of stuff like this. Out of curiosity, did he charge you for his time?

I've heard of students doing a solo XC, still writing the CFI in the logbook, and the CFI charges them for the time.
 
MAKG1 said:
In an aircraft.

No one can be PIC of an ATD. But they do have flights.
Click to expand...

No, you cannot fly without leaving the ground, and if you don't fly, there is no flight.
 
Shamir said:
Hi there folks,

Few months ago while training for the Private Pilot Certificate I went through my solo stages of Solo Around the pattern several times, Solo to the practice area 3 times, and 3 Solo XCs.

On my first solo flight, when I landed my instructor was waiting for me at the ramp, we secured the plane and went into the Flight School Lounge.

As he was signing my logbook, the Owner of the school which is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor, a man with thousands of hours and in Aviation since the 70s, He told my flight instructor I still couldn't Log PIC time because I wasn't rated in the Cessna 172 until I get my PPL.

My instructor and I believe that he was kind of insane saying that just because of the fact that every aircraft must have a PIC, and if I am flying SOLO, that should be me, not the instructor who is waiting for me on the ground.

What do you guys think about it? Are we right or is the Assist. Chief Flight Instructor right?

After getting my ticket, the first thing I did was getting a checkout in the C172S (i've been flying the P and M models during my training) And after landing this guy said I could not log PIC as I was receiving Flight Training... I thought that being the sole manipulator of the controls all the time, and having my certificate already would allow me to log PIC time even though I'm receiving training from a CFI....

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Thought - 61.51 really needs indentation to follow it correctly. Use this link and tell us if e) 4) applies.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.51
 
61.51 (e)(4):
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
 
flyingron said:
What does that have to do with anything? Being PIC is not a necessary NOR sufficient condition to log PIC time.
Click to expand...

Huh? Where did I say anything about logging time Ron?

flyingron said:
The FAA specifically dissuades examiners from being PIC on exams.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know that, go back and read my post please, I even SAID that. My question was, when did that start happening or has that always been the case?

You said
"There was always an argument as to whether student pilots on their checkride could log that time. Most people argued if they passed, they could."

I was asking, why the argument? Was there a time when DPE's were actually required to be PIC on checkrides and when students were expressly forbidden to log PIC time until they got the temporary? If there was always an argument then surely at some point that had to happen, else there would never be an argument would there?

My point is since a DPE can't (or shouldn't) be PIC due to the FAA regulations, that means I have to be PIC. And if I have to be PIC AND I have to fly, I'm sure as hell gonna log it. If they aren't PIC and I'm not PIC then no one's PIC.

You don't decide who's PIC after the flight, what if something happens? On a PPL checkride I know that if something DOES happen, the DPE assumes responsibility and becomes PIC. If I botched a landing and busted the checkride and fail, do PIC responsibilities change in flight?
 
GlennAB1 said:
You're a student, not a certified pilot, you can't be PIC. You document SOLO. 61.51
Click to expand...

Nobody "certifies" pilots. A student pilot is a certificated pilot. If he's the only one in the airplane he darn well is PIC. It's authorized under the 61.89. It lists when a student pilot can NOT be PIC (with passengers, in furhterence of a business...) but follow the rules solo he can very much be.

You're confusing the old 61.51 that says he couldn't LOG PIC. But that was changed a decade ago as well. 61.51.(e)(4) covers it.
 
Caramon13 said:
Huh? Where did I say anything about logging time Ron?
Click to expand...
You were responding to my comment about logging so I thought you were on topic rather thank talking about something completely spurious.
 
Caramon13 said:
Yes, I know that, go back and read my post please, I even SAID that. My question was, when did that start happening or has that always been the case?
Click to expand...
I don't have an exact start date, but 61.47, the rule about examiners not being PIC, goes back to before 1966.
 
flyingron said:
You were responding to my comment about logging so I thought you were on topic rather thank talking about something completely spurious.
Click to expand...

Yeah I do that sometimes alot. I go off on tangents and bring up stuff that may not always be on topic.

@Mark: Thanks, so basically it's been that way all my life heh..:)
 
I had to go back through my logbook when I did the iacra for my Instrument rating and find all the time I was alone in the plane for solo time. Didn't think I needed to do it, but the CFII helping me with the application asked me for it and I had no idea.

I still never write it in my logbook (no place to put it in my logbook from the 90s), though I have started keeping track of it online.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Not confusing anything. The requirement to log "Solo" is still there.
Click to expand...

So is the "requirement" to log PIC time. And your statement that student pilots are not PIC is just patently absurd.
 
GlennAB1 said:
LOL. PIC of 1. PIC of yourself. Talk about absurd.
Click to expand...

PIC of an AIRPLANE, not of YOURSELF.

And yes, you log both SOLO and PIC. You probably also write values in other columns- any that apply to that flight. They aren't exclusive (one or the other).
 
TangoWhiskey said:
PIC of an AIRPLANE, not of YOURSELF.

And yes, you log both SOLO and PIC. You probably also write values in other columns- any that apply to that flight. They aren't exclusive (one or the other).
Click to expand...

Just don't log simulated IMC in the same flight. :D
 
:rofl:Can you imagine this Glenn dude trying to log a XC night flight by a student pilot? I can see it now: "You're nobody til you're certified! You are NOT in command of night! The moon is! You can't log the moon!!! And XC? What- you think you flew from LA to DC? You didn't fly cross country, you're just a student." :goofy:

(Yeah, I know, it's pretty rare for a student to be endorsed for night flights, let alone night XC.)
 
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