PhD and MD

[Hank S]

Can you clue me in? I guess I am dense and don't know what the username he has means.

"CTLSMD" can be interpreted as "CTLS," an airplane, and "MD," the operator and his profession that he tries so hard to hide.

Explaining it takes all the fun out of it . . .

 

[rbridges]

"CTLSMD" can be interpreted as "CTLS," an airplane, and "MD," the operator and his profession that he tries so hard to hide.

Explaining it takes all the fun out of it . . .

you're pretty smart for a War Eagle.

 

[ralarcon]

Uh, am I the only person who sees the irony in your username and this post?

User name, anonymous, MD could be Maryland, what first came to mind, I may make a comment or not on medical matters, it is my prerogative. I'm not interested in you, or anybody else in this forum address me by using the word "Doctor" . The only reason you know my profession is because I admitted it, otherwise it is CTLS in Maryland. Rarely anybody outside my office or hospital calls me Doctor and I dont request it from anybody, or want it. Which, I think was the point, (as to the use of word) of the OP. If the subject of the thread was other than what it is, the username would not be so obvious. Username in this forum has very little impact on what happens out there in real life.

Cheers

 

[Gary F]

User name, anonymous, MD could be Maryland, what first came to mind, I may make a comment or not on medical matters, it is my prerogative. I'm not interested in you, or anybody else in this forum address me by using the word "Doctor" . The only reason you know my profession is because I admitted it, otherwise it is CTLS in Maryland. Rarely anybody outside my office or hospital calls me Doctor and I dont request it from anybody, or want it. Which, I think was the point, (as to the use of word) of the OP. If the subject of the thread was other than what it is, the username would not be so obvious. Username in this forum has very little impact on what happens out there in real life.

Cheers

The only time I need to be addressed as doctor is when I am introduced to a patient for the first time. I discourage the use of this title outside of selected medical encounters where somebody needs to know they are dealing with a physician.

 

[ralarcon]

The only time I need to be addressed as doctor is when I am introduced to a patient for the first time. I discourage the use of this title outside of selected medical encounters where somebody needs to know they are dealing with a physician.

I'm in total agreement with you.

Cheers

 

[Flymeariver]

"CTLSMD" can be interpreted as "CTLS," an airplane, and "MD," the operator and his profession that he tries so hard to hide.

Explaining it takes all the fun out of it . . .

Ah lol...my bad, I saw the ralarcon username not the CTLSMD. Now makes MUCH more sense. Now I know why my wife calls me dense. :wink2:

 

[Hank S]

you're pretty smart for a War Eagle.

Actually, we are the Tigers.

War Eagle!

 

[Gary F]

Actually, we are the Tigers.

War Eagle!

War Eagle!

 

[rbridges]

War Eagle!

War Eagle!

 

[mcmanigle]

Do they have to go to school as long as US, Canadian and Australian physicians?

In many countries medical school begins after high school so they get to skip the undergrad premed requirement we have in the US.

Yes, but it's generally a 6-year undergraduate degree. We have the same sort of idea in the US, in the few combined bachelor's-MD programs (Penn State-Jefferson, etc.)

Effectively, you're doing the "pre-med" parts of (what we in the US think of as) undergrad and nothing else, and then jumping straight into med school. Although as I understand it, these people spend a bit less time in the hospital compared to our MD students.

But even in the states, as far as physicians are concerned, your MD is "undergraduate medical education." A residency is "graduate medical education."

Although medicine has (thankfully) become a very scientific pursuit, the culture around academia, including medical academia, has as much to do with monastic culture and political posturing. Luckily most MD students are spending too much time studying to think very hard about the differences between an MBBS, an undergraduate MD, a research MD or DM, and a PhD.

And let's not even get started on DNPs.

 

[nddons]

Outside of a physician's office, if somebody introduces himself to me as Dr. so-and-so, I figure he's a chiropractor.

Having spent about 10 years of my life in Davenport, Iowa, home of Palmer College of Chiropractic, I would say you are spot on.

 

[nddons]

Last time I checked it was harder to get accepted to dental or vet school than medical school.

I don't know about dental schools, but I believe that's the case with veterinary school. There are only 28 vet schools in the country, with first year class sizes on the 80-90 range. They can get pretty selective, with an acceptance rate of less than 1 in 10 applicants if I recall. My daughter applied to 12 schools, and was accepted into 3.

 

[Gary F]

But even in the states, as far as physicians are concerned, your MD is "undergraduate medical education." A residency is "graduate medical education."

I disagree. Although residency and fellowship are considered graduate medical education, those enrolled in medical school are engaged in medical education not undergraduate medical education. That's why those who graduate from med school are awarded the MD degree which is a doctorate.

 

[Gary F]

I don't know about dental schools, but I believe that's the case with veterinary school. There are only 28 vet schools in the country, with first year class sizes on the 80-90 range. They can get pretty selective, with an acceptance rate of less than 1 in 10 applicants if I recall. My daughter applied to 12 schools, and was accepted into 3.

Women study way too much. Is that fair to the guys? :wink2:

 

[Clark1961]

That's why those who graduate from med school are awarded the MD degree which is a doctorate.

By med school standards it is a doctorate. By any other branch of academia except law, a medical school program which awards an MD would not qualify for a doctorate since there is no requirement for an original contribution to our knowledge.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

PhD = Piled high.....Deep.

 

[Gary F]

By med school standards it is a doctorate. By any other branch of academia except law, a medical school program which awards an MD would not qualify for a doctorate since there is no requirement for an original contribution to our knowledge.

Who determined that all doctorates require an original contribution to knowledge? You are applying academic doctorate standards to medicine.

Here are a couple of examples of original contributions to knowledge.

Perceptions of Canadian Meeting Professionals of Environmentally Responsible Hotel Practices. A subjective study designed to steal conventions and conferences from hotels in New York, Boston and Chicago.

What is the History of Celebrity Gossip, and What does it Say about the State of Celebrity Today? A double-blind study of American supermarket tabloids and their influence on popular culture and tax reform.

 

[weilke]

Do JDs graduating from US law schools submit and defend a thesis ?

 

[nddons]

Women study way too much. Is that fair to the guys? :wink2:

Agreed!

 

[Circuit Flyer]

Do JDs graduating from US law schools submit and defend a thesis ?

No. They must pass a state bar exam in order to be admitted to practice in their state (or DC).

 

[mcmanigle]

No. They must pass a state bar exam in order to be admitted to practice in their state (or DC).

Graduation from law school / awarding of a J.D. and being admitted to the bar are two different things. So is graduation from medical school / awarding of an M.D. and being licensed as a physician by a state.

A J.D. or an M.D. is an academic degree and is awarded by a university. Bar admission or physician licensure has direct legal implications and is awarded by the state or by a state-sanctioned private organization.

Earning a professional degree in medicine is necessary but not sufficient to be licensed as a physician in US states these days -- an independent license also requires at least a year of supervised practice (internship) among other requirements (passing certain tests).

Similarly, earning a professional law degree is usually among the requirements for sitting the bar exam or exams to be admitted to a state bar, but some states don't require it, offering alternate apprenticeship-like pathways. Conversely, there are countries where a law degree and exam are not enough, and a year or more of supervised practice of law is required.

By any other branch of academia except law, a medical school program which awards an MD would not qualify for a doctorate since there is no requirement for an original contribution to our knowledge.

In the most traditional (ie Latin word root) sense, a doctorate is an award to someone who is now qualified to teach at the highest university level, and doesn't directly require original contribution to knowledge (though that is reasonably enough a requirement in most of the academic disciplines). As MDs and JDs are equipped to teach in university medical and law schools, the descriptor fits.

That said, this broad definition has lead to a number of different definitions of "doctorate" in different cultures and times. It wasn't long ago that in Germanic and Scandinavian countries, a doctorate was awarded only upon reaching what we would now consider the full professor level. This is still sort of how honorary doctorates are given out, for contribution that marks the bearer as an expert in the field, and also persists in the "higher doctorates" of some countries.

Schools in the UK, which give MBBSs as undergraduate (professional) medical degrees, do also award MDs or DMs for original clinical research projects, much the same as a PhD or DPhil, but in a medical department rather than a more traditional academic one.

I guess my point is that overall, you're not going to apply logic to a system of man-made labels that have developed over about a millennium and come out ahead. In the oldest universities, admission was permission to hang out in the relevant city for a few years and chat with the academics and read in the libraries. At the end of your few years, you submitted to examination, whether by written and oral answers to questions (for a bachelor's or master's) or by submission of a thesis and oral examination (for a doctorate). And really weird things persist.

For example, at Oxford, anyone who graduates as an undergrad with a 3-year bachelor's degree (which is now not the done thing in sciences, which are all 4-year undergraduate master's degrees), you automatically are awarded an MA the following year, upon writing a letter asking for it. This is because traditionally, children were sent to live and study at the age of 12-ish, and left at the age of 20-ish with an MA, so tradition and rules dictate that a master's level graduate is a member of Convocation (the body of alumni). Once modern bachelor's degrees became the norm, there needed to be a way to allow alumni into Convocation, so an automatic MA was decided upon. And there are even weirder permutations of that.

The point is, if you want to know what somebody's done, you're going to have to go deeper than the letters after their name. And you're never going to get something as old and entrenched as academia to follow sensical rules, especially internationally.

 

[Gary F]

Graduation from law school / awarding of a J.D. and being admitted to the bar are two different things. So is graduation from medical school / awarding of an M.D. and being licensed as a physician by a state.

A J.D. or an M.D. is an academic degree and is awarded by a university. Bar admission or physician licensure has direct legal implications and is awarded by the state or by a state-sanctioned private organization.

Earning a professional degree in medicine is necessary but not sufficient to be licensed as a physician in US states these days -- an independent license also requires at least a year of supervised practice (internship) among other requirements (passing certain tests).

Similarly, earning a professional law degree is usually among the requirements for sitting the bar exam or exams to be admitted to a state bar, but some states don't require it, offering alternate apprenticeship-like pathways. Conversely, there are countries where a law degree and exam are not enough, and a year or more of supervised practice of law is required.




In the most traditional (ie Latin word root) sense, a doctorate is an award to someone who is now qualified to teach at the highest university level, and doesn't directly require original contribution to knowledge (though that is reasonably enough a requirement in most of the academic disciplines). As MDs and JDs are equipped to teach in university medical and law schools, the descriptor fits.

That said, this broad definition has lead to a number of different definitions of "doctorate" in different cultures and times. It wasn't long ago that in Germanic and Scandinavian countries, a doctorate was awarded only upon reaching what we would now consider the full professor level. This is still sort of how honorary doctorates are given out, for contribution that marks the bearer as an expert in the field, and also persists in the "higher doctorates" of some countries.

Schools in the UK, which give MBBSs as undergraduate (professional) medical degrees, do also award MDs or DMs for original clinical research projects, much the same as a PhD or DPhil, but in a medical department rather than a more traditional academic one.

I guess my point is that overall, you're not going to apply logic to a system of man-made labels that have developed over about a millennium and come out ahead. In the oldest universities, admission was permission to hang out in the relevant city for a few years and chat with the academics and read in the libraries. At the end of your few years, you submitted to examination, whether by written and oral answers to questions (for a bachelor's or master's) or by submission of a thesis and oral examination (for a doctorate). And really weird things persist.

For example, at Oxford, anyone who graduates as an undergrad with a 3-year bachelor's degree (which is now not the done thing in sciences, which are all 4-year undergraduate master's degrees), you automatically are awarded an MA the following year, upon writing a letter asking for it. This is because traditionally, children were sent to live and study at the age of 12-ish, and left at the age of 20-ish with an MA, so tradition and rules dictate that a master's level graduate is a member of Convocation (the body of alumni). Once modern bachelor's degrees became the norm, there needed to be a way to allow alumni into Convocation, so an automatic MA was decided upon. And there are even weirder permutations of that.

The point is, if you want to know what somebody's done, you're going to have to go deeper than the letters after their name. And you're never going to get something as old and entrenched as academia to follow sensical rules, especially internationally.

A very erudite post.

 

[Circuit Flyer]

Yes, and very interesting. And I've seen more and more medical care, including diagnosing and prescribing, performed by non-MDs, some of whom are lobbying to be called "Doctor" officially, and many of whom are called "Doctor" by the patients.

New York retains the apprenticeship path to legal practice, and I recall its application in at least one case in the 20th century. There is debate over what attorneys can call themselves. With "just" a JD (and not an LLM), they could theoretically be called doctor, although I've never heard it outside of England. People argue over whether "counselor," "esquire," "counsellor," and the like apply before they pass a bar exam. What's in a name?

 

[Gary F]

Yes, and very interesting. And I've seen more and more medical care, including diagnosing and prescribing, performed by non-MDs, some of whom are lobbying to be called "Doctor" officially, and many of whom are called "Doctor" by the patients.

This is not a good idea. On the surface it looks like it is the path to less expensive health care. The problem is that the quality of decision making determines overall cost more than the cost of the initial evaluation. Mid levels (NPs and PAs) are best used for data gathering and documentation and bureaucratic tasks. The diagnostic and therapeutic strategy should be left to the most highly trained and experienced provider available. If you save $50 on the initial visit but rack up and additional $3,000 in tests you are not saving money.

 

[Clark1961]

In the most traditional (ie Latin word root) sense, a doctorate is an award to someone who is now qualified to teach at the highest university level, and doesn't directly require original contribution to knowledge (though that is reasonably enough a requirement in most of the academic disciplines). As MDs and JDs are equipped to teach in university medical and law schools, the descriptor fits.

No way is a new graduate MD or JD equipped to teach at university level, much less the highest. They might be able to lead classes in an academic sense but they lack the experience necessary to truly grasp the subject matter. I taught graduate level classes as I was finishing my PhD and observed this and experienced this first hand. My department head attempted to push me outside of my practical experience level an I refused. Teaching from a purely academic perspective might work in some disciplines but not in any applied science.

 

[weilke]

The problem is that the quality of decThe diagnostic and therapeutic strategy should be left to the most highly trained and experienced provider available. If you save $50 on the initial visit but rack up and additional $3,000 in tests you are not saving money.

Yeah, but how are you going to fulfill your quality measures if you dont have enough specialists in checklist medicine.....
Besides, all those specialists who provide the unneccessary tests have to live too ;-)

 

[Gary F]

Yeah, but how are you going to fulfill your quality measures if you dont have enough specialists in checklist medicine.....
Besides, all those specialists who provide the unneccessary tests have to live too ;-)

I've been paid a fortune reading imaging studies that offered no benefit to the patient, so yea. I'm probably not the only person here where that applies. :wink2:

The less a provider knows the more tests they tend to order to compensate for a lack of clinical acumen.

 

[weilke]

The less a provider knows the more tests they tend to order to compensate for a lack of clinical acumen.

If we had only competent ER docs, my kids would starve.

 

[Gary F]

If we had only competent ER docs, my kids would starve.

Yea me too but at this point in my career I am willing to accept lower pay in exchange for the better lifestyle that would result from eliminating work that does not benefit patients.

 

[mcmanigle]

No way is a new graduate MD or JD equipped to teach at university level...

Interns and residents are teaching medical students at university teaching hospitals around the world as we speak.

 

[Circuit Flyer]

Law school professors usually have a lot of years of practice and a lot of accomplishments under their belts before they begin teaching. Or at least that was the case about 25 years ago.

 

[Gary F]

No way is a new graduate MD or JD equipped to teach at university level, much less the highest. They might be able to lead classes in an academic sense but they lack the experience necessary to truly grasp the subject matter. I taught graduate level classes as I was finishing my PhD and observed this and experienced this first hand. My department head attempted to push me outside of my practical experience level an I refused. Teaching from a purely academic perspective might work in some disciplines but not in any applied science.

So a few months later after you completed your thesis you were qualified to teach? More qualified than a newly minted MD? Why?

 

[Unregistered]

Many years ago while standing duty in an American consulate I received an after-hours call from an American who identified himself as "Doctor So-and-so." The vacationing doctor was calling for assistance reporting that a member of his party in-country was a severe allergic reaction.

At the time, I had an basic EMT certification that I had acquired before going overseas. Because of country-specific issues (i.e. wide access to pharmacies but very poor hospitals) I started to advise the doctor that he could obtain medication in a pharmacy adjacent to the hotel from which he was calling while transportation could be arranged. The doctor's angry response to this suggestion was likely the result of fear in the moment, but it took us about 20-30 seconds to establish that he was not a medical doctor.

Many years later, I am a medical doctor. My patients call me by my first name (if I can help it) and I never address myself as doctor off the medical campus. About the only time I do use my title at work is when I'm trying to ram common sense into a bureaucrat standing in the way of good medical care.

I would venture that anyone who refers to them self as "doctor" in a non-work environment (medical doctor or otherwise) has a personality disorder. Perhaps it is good that such people address themselves as "doctor" so that we know who to avoid being around.

 

[Circuit Flyer]

I would venture that anyone who refers to them self as "doctor" in a non-work environment (medical doctor or otherwise) has a personality disorder.

You should see if the APA will add this to the DSM-5 (DSM-5TR?). It could save a lot of time.

 

[nddons]

Many years ago while standing duty in an American consulate I received an after-hours call from an American who identified himself as "Doctor So-and-so." The vacationing doctor was calling for assistance reporting that a member of his party in-country was a severe allergic reaction.



At the time, I had an basic EMT certification that I had acquired before going overseas. Because of country-specific issues (i.e. wide access to pharmacies but very poor hospitals) I started to advise the doctor that he could obtain medication in a pharmacy adjacent to the hotel from which he was calling while transportation could be arranged. The doctor's angry response to this suggestion was likely the result of fear in the moment, but it took us about 20-30 seconds to establish that he was not a medical doctor.



Many years later, I am a medical doctor. My patients call me by my first name (if I can help it) and I never address myself as doctor off the medical campus. About the only time I do use my title at work is when I'm trying to ram common sense into a bureaucrat standing in the way of good medical care.



I would venture that anyone who refers to them self as "doctor" in a non-work environment (medical doctor or otherwise) has a personality disorder. Perhaps it is good that such people address themselves as "doctor" so that we know who to avoid being around.

My father in law was a PhD and college professor in the college of education at Illinois State University. The first and only time I heard him called "Doctor" was from the scores of students who showed up at his funeral. To the rest of the world, he was simply known as "Jay."

 

[Clark1961]

So a few months later after you completed your thesis you were qualified to teach? More qualified than a newly minted MD? Why?

Much more qualified than a newly minted MD. I had about 13 years experience in the industry and had spent the past 5 years working in a very small group (three of us locally) who developed the theory and application of new methods for analyzing particular natural gas reservoirs. Quite naturally I was qualified and encouraged to lead classes on that particular subject matter.

In short, I had the practical experience that a newly minted MD lacks. The medical profession recognizes the lack of practical experience and utilizes programs to address it as you are well aware.

 

[Gary F]

Much more qualified than a newly minted MD. I had about 13 years experience in the industry and had spent the past 5 years working in a very small group (three of us locally) who developed the theory and application of new methods for analyzing particular natural gas reservoirs. Quite naturally I was qualified and encouraged to lead classes on that particular subject matter.

In short, I had the practical experience that a newly minted MD lacks. The medical profession recognizes the lack of practical experience and utilizes programs to address it as you are well aware.

Do all Ph.D grads have practical experience? Your criteria for a doctorate degree appears to be a moving target requiring an undefined amount of experience and a requirement for contribution (however that is defined) to knowledge. Your stated requirements are somewhat vague and seem to mirror your particular situation.

If it makes you feel better I agree that the newly minted medical school graduate is absolutely clueless. Unfortunately some physicians retain this condition in spite of years of experience.

 

[Norman]

Do all Ph.D grads have practical experience? Your criteria for a doctorate degree appears to be a moving target requiring an undefined amount of experience and a requirement for contribution (however that is defined) to knowledge. Your stated requirements are somewhat vague and seem to mirror your particular situation.

If it makes you feel better I agree that the newly minted medical school graduate is absolutely clueless. Unfortunately some physicians retain this condition in spite of years of experience.

My doctor works out of a teaching hospital and frequently has externs in his office. It's fun helping them with their education. I've been through some unusual surgery and the look on some of their faces is worth the time spent "interviewing" them.

Unfortunately, I've also met a few of the latter.

 

[Clark1961]

Do all Ph.D grads have practical experience? Your criteria for a doctorate degree appears to be a moving target requiring an undefined amount of experience and a requirement for contribution (however that is defined) to knowledge. Your stated requirements are somewhat vague and seem to mirror your particular situation.

If it makes you feel better I agree that the newly minted medical school graduate is absolutely clueless. Unfortunately some physicians retain this condition in spite of years of experience.

If it makes you fell better, I haven't stated requirements for a Doctorate. I have mentioned the contribution of original knowledge. Another poster mentioned preparation to teach at the highest level and I responded to that. Anything else you are just making up. Please don't do that.

 

[Gary F]

If it makes you fell better, I haven't stated requirements for a Doctorate. I have mentioned the contribution of original knowledge. Another poster mentioned preparation to teach at the highest level and I responded to that. Anything else you are just making up. Please don't do that.

I think you are making up those ambiguous requirements.