Personal Airliner

[LDJones]

If you're in a larger aircraft (typically with a single point I might add) then it's easy. You hook up the blue tube and the poop tube to their respective areas. Empty the poop through the poop tube and put in new blue juice. Easy and you don't get poop on you if you do it right.
The "tray" lavs though.... They are literally a tray that comes out from under the seat. The poop sloshes around and then you have to take it into a bathroom or sewer and dump it (btw, it's almost impossible to empty out of the weird square hole completely) and then put in whatever blue juice it calls for. I got one of those once. It had dihariaha and vomit mixed together. Worst day ever

That, uhhh, paints a pretty clear picture! (Or not so pretty!)

I like the idea of "the line guys do it"!

 

[wabower]

Even so, you must check it carefully after they reinsert the cassette. On many planes the servicer must lie on the floor and look sideways to see if the mounting surface is properly mated to the frame, otherwise a ~1/2" gap will be created between the bowl gasket and the cannister lip. As soon as the knife valve is re-opened, the loo becomes a slosheroo and blue water goes everywhere.

of about

That, uhhh, paints a pretty clear picture! (Or not so pretty!)

I like the idea of "the line guys do it"!

 

[Henning]

If you're in a larger aircraft (typically with a single point I might add) then it's easy. You hook up the blue tube and the poop tube to their respective areas. Empty the poop through the poop tube and put in new blue juice. Easy and you don't get poop on you if you do it right.
The "tray" lavs though.... They are literally a tray that comes out from under the seat. The poop sloshes around and then you have to take it into a bathroom or sewer and dump it (btw, it's almost impossible to empty out of the weird square hole completely) and then put in whatever blue juice it calls for. I got one of those once. It had dihariaha and vomit mixed together. Worst day ever

LOL, at least the plane is a small system. You should see what happens when big pressurized boat systems explode.

 

[Henning]

Even so, you must check it carefully after they reinsert the cassette. On many planes the servicer must lie on the floor and look sideways to see if the mounting surface is properly mated to the frame, otherwise a ~1/2" gap will be created between the bowl gasket and the cannister lip. As soon as the knife valve is re-opened, the loo becomes a slosheroo and blue water goes everywhere.

of about

The captain can delegate duties but not responsibilities. No matter who does it, captain's responsible for it, so tip well lol, and check to make sure you got your money's worth.

 

[N747JB]

think again. I made the mistake of borrowing a friend's 414 when we were in between airplanes. My wife and daughters decided that was just about the minimum airplane they could bear. When I later bought this little travel air there was no end of whining. I have the turbos for it but they're still in a box on the shelf. I know better than to ask "Honey, we could save some gas if you and the kids would agree to breath through this little plastic tube"

The GM at my FBO told me one time, "Never put your wife in a 400 series Cessna, if you don't intend to buy one." He's right, once they climb the air stair and sit all comfy in the back, it's hard to get them to climb up on a wing and shimmy into the back seats of some other twin.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Is this what you are serving for inflight meal?

 

[denverpilot]

My wife, too. First time she saw a Meridian taxiing up, she asked, "What's THAT?"

...

Well, how about something a little different - there's a guy flies around here in in a BAC146 airliner based at Meacham Field in Fort Worth (ATC call "BAC Jet"), and those have seriously good short-field capabilities.

Smurf jet.

My wife almost drools at the sound of radial engines on warbirds. She doesn't even bat an eye at Meridians and the like.

This bodes well for "someday"... if I ever make a fortune. Heh heh. Would a T-6 be a little tight at Gaston's?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Would a T-6 be a little tight at Gaston's?

T-6? As in World War ll primary trainer? It would be right at home at Gaston's.

 

[denverpilot]

T-6? As in World War ll primary trainer? It would be right at home at Gaston's.

Yeah, I figured so... I just don't know the numbers for anything like that.

Next question is... Can two people live comfortably in a Texan? Haha.

It ain't happenin'... But it's fun to dream.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Yeah, I figured so... I just don't know the numbers for anything like that.

Next question is... Can two people live comfortably in a Texan? Haha.

It ain't happenin'... But it's fun to dream.

Define "Comfortable". It was a MILITARY trainer. Not sure comfort was ever a design consideration for the military.

 

[denverpilot]

Define "Comfortable". It was a MILITARY trainer. Not sure comfort was ever a design consideration for the military.

Heh. The 195 is probably better, eh?

Shhh. Don't tell anyone. She likes those too. And yeah, I know you'd sell at the right price... But that ain't happening 'round here either.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

A comment in another thread made me think of this.

A lot of us started out in aviation not only because we love flying, but also because we naively believed we'd not ever again have to fly the airlines!

But now let's say I am very rich, but also very stingy. What private airplane do you think just about meets the requirements to be called a "personal airliner?"

My thoughts, btw, are that it would have to be either a FIKI turbo twin or a turbine single, at minimum.

Depends on the mission:

If you are a well off retiree and wife that want to live in Scottsdale and visit the kids a few times a year in Sacramento you may be happy with a normally aspirated IFR four/six seat Comanche/Bonanza/C210. If not in a big hurry you can even use a Cherokee 6 or C207 cabin.

If you are using it for business and need to go in most weather than you step it up to Turbo and FIKI and possibly twin at this point.

At this point you are probably also looking at a Seneca, Baron or 320 with FIKI.

Above this you are most certainly looking at Turbine aircraft. Big single like Platus or smaller Meridian. At this point you are also considering KA and its brethren.

If you won the $500 million lotery and are not particularly worried about leaving any to the kids you might also be looking at Jet service.

I'm sure that $2100 is a per hour cost and probably has landing fees, pilot fees extra as well as fuel surcharges. Multiply that times the number of hours round trip each flight. Also add down time if you stay over night and crew fees.

So just as we all own from Cessna 150 through GulfStreem or BBJ so is the range of hired transportation.

Risingup.com has some costs calculators to compare the per cost mile with different types and fuels assumptions.

 

[Abram]

Several years ago I had this exact thought after traveling commercially with the family and having TSA change the rules on us yet again. I decided I was going to try to eliminate airline travel forever!

My choice was a Meridian and it has been doing a great job getting me around for business and my family around for personal travel for about six years.

It has not eliminated all commercial travel, but it has eliminated about 80% of it. Also, as the kids get bigger, the weight restrictions on a Meridian become a bit more of an issue, so I may need to deal with that in the next few years.

However, for the time being, it has been a great choice.

Abram

 

[Ted]

It's worth noting that flying predominantly east of the Rockies, I've had excellent reliability with the Aztec and 310. The only commercial travel we do is when we need a one-way trip, or choose to for whatever reason.

 

[j1b3h0]

Clearly, opinions vary. But the OP has been a little vague about the intended mission of said airliner. Who's going to fly it? How far with how many? Must it cross oceans? Does it really have to go every day, regardless of weather? If it's really a personal airliner, a Mooney 252 would do nicely. How much money? How reliable? How safe? I mean a WWII bomber could be an airliner for someone who isn't as concerned with speed, reliability or cost. A Howard 500 is a pretty swanky ride and makes a powerful statement taxiing up to the ramp - but it's a bit like a B-58 Hustler: Nobody has one. Plus somebody has to wipe the oil off the cowlings after every flight, pull the props through before startup, well, you know, the PITA factor is quite high.
If the mission is to fly to all points in North America, in most weather, with a reasonably experienced hand at the tiller, and the owner flies it by him or herself, well... what do you like? For me, it would be a dash 10 powered turbo Commander, Cessna 441, MU-2 or King Air. Might also consider a Merlin 3B. Might also consider a P-Baron, Aerostar 700 or 421C. These kind of machines are built to go every day, in almost any weather (with the right pilot). Airplanes much bigger/faster are usually flown professionally, and are hence, much, much more expensive. I like the option of flying at 17,500ft VFR direct. IFR only if I have to. Some airplanes are kinda complicated to fly by oneself - if you don't believe me ask your insurance agent. The Merlin or MU-2 is not for a inexperienced hand.

 

[wabower]

Nice ride. If the Meridian had been available when we bought the Malibu, we might still have it.

Several years ago I had this exact thought after traveling commercially with the family and having TSA change the rules on us yet again. I decided I was going to try to eliminate airline travel forever!

My choice was a Meridian and it has been doing a great job getting me around for business and my family around for personal travel for about six years.

It has not eliminated all commercial travel, but it has eliminated about 80% of it. Also, as the kids get bigger, the weight restrictions on a Meridian become a bit more of an issue, so I may need to deal with that in the next few years.

However, for the time being, it has been a great choice.

Abram

 

[Abram]

Nice ride. If the Meridian had been available when we bought the Malibu, we might still have it.

To your point: I have run the numbers on almost everything that would be a step up and the difference in ownership and operating costs are staggering.

Whenever I think about getting a different plane, my friends who have had Meridians and moved to other airplanes tell me that I have the perfect plane for my needs and that I am a fool for even considering changing!

Abram

 

[Abram]

I think that you will have plenty of job security. Every pilot, including me, eventually convinces themselves that they need something that goes higher, faster, farther and with more stuff.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Speaking of the Italians and their airplanes, if it was just 2 or 3 people, I'd consider the Tecnam P2006T. Great flying airplane.

 

[rowerwet]

money no object, Global for the long trips, TBM 850 for short stuff.
I worked on the Cessna 400's for years, great planes.
Avanti II is like an Italian sports car, look great, the sound when they go by is like no other, go fast, but so does the money... In fact the company is owned by Porsche, go figure. I got to work on one, nothing wrong with it some dynamite couldn't fix! the odd shaped fuselage makes for some weird mounting and access problems. Give me a CJ series any day.

 

[3393RP]

In fact the company is owned by Porsche, go figure.

By 1998, the assets of Rinaldo Piaggio S.p.A. exchanged hands and a group of entrepreneurs headed by the Di Mase and Ferrari families and Piaggio became Piaggio Aero Industries. This acquiring of assets brought Piaggio Aero Industries back to its roots, as a designer and producer of business aircraft.

In 2006 Mubadala Development Company, acquired a 35% stake Piaggio Aero Industries S.p.A. Mubadala Development Company is a wholly owned investment vehicle of the Government of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi, in the United Arab Emirates.

In 2008, the India-based conglomerate Tata Group acquired a one-third stake in Piaggio Aero Industries, becoming one of the primary shareholders alongside Ferrari and Di Mase families and Mubadala Development Company. As part of the acquistion Tata gained the right to appoint three of the nine seats on the board, and one of the three seats on the management committee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_Aero

 

[Henning]

Tata bought into it? Wow, that's almost scary to consider what could happen there, could you see Tata making aircraft components?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Tata bought into it? Wow, that's almost scary to consider what could happen there, could you see Tata making aircraft components?

They do, and have been doing so for some time. Tata Advanced Materials makes aircraft and spacecraft parts. They also have a strong reputation of taking care of their workers. I've used Tata products (and still do)- I don't have any trouble with them.

 

[Henning]

They do, and have been doing so for some time. Tata Advanced Materials makes aircraft and spacecraft parts. They also have a strong reputation of taking care of their workers. I've used Tata products (and still do)- I don't have any trouble with them.

I guess they make it better than their cars LOL.

 

[Dead Stick]

Assumbing that money would not be an issue, my requirements would be simple...
1. Twin turbine-powered
2. Pressurization
3. Single-Pilot

I'd probably go with an updated Eclipse 500 or even better one of the new Eclipse 550s. I don't need a lot of room and at 700 nm for my typical trip anything faster would only get me a few minutes on the other end. For turboprop twins I'd be looking at a Commander 1000 or MU-2 Marquise. There's a lot of bang for the buck there.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I guess they make it better than their cars LOL.

Their cars are OK. The Jaguar and Range-Rover brands aren't any worse than when the British or Americans owned them, but I don't have personal experience with them. I've ridden in both the Indica and Sumo many times- no problems- always worked when we needed it. I've never driven them as I'd create more traffic issues in India if I did. As for the Nano, the product I think you are referring to, that was built to be as inexpensive as possible and many trade-offs were made in the design to accomplish that goal. That vehicle was designed for a specific market that excludes you. They had a bad problem with the Nano (exhaust system setting some wires on fire ) that has since been resolved. I know a lot of people over there- they are happy with their Tata products and they are as good as the Japanese imports as far as they are concerned.

I'm just disappointed they don't make women's clothing - think of the marketing possibilities with a name like "Tata"

 

[Clark1961]

I've never driven them as I'd create more traffic issues in India if I did.

Driving in India takes some getting used to, that's fer sure. I did it exactly once. Was quite glad to let the hired driver handle it after that. The drivers sure trust each other a lot. It works fine right up until the moment it doesn't. India is the only place I've witnessed a fatality on the road. Didn't see the actual smash, just the body laying on the road afterward. The little motorized trike was all twisted aluminum. The truck wasn't scratched.

 

[Henning]

Driving in India takes some getting used to, that's fer sure. I did it exactly once. Was quite glad to let the hired driver handle it after that. The drivers sure trust each other a lot. It works fine right up until the moment it doesn't. India is the only place I've witnessed a fatality on the road. Didn't see the actual smash, just the body laying on the road afterward. The little motorized trike was all twisted aluminum. The truck wasn't scratched.

In Jakarta it's okay for anyone to get in a car and drive, you can't make traffic worse.

 

[JHW]

Assumbing that money would not be an issue, my requirements would be simple...
1. Twin turbine-powered
2. Pressurization
3. Single-Pilot

if safety is your goal, pilots cause a lot more trouble than engines. Why shell out for the 2nd turbine and go cheap on the 2nd pilot ?

 

[Dead Stick]

if safety is your goal, pilots cause a lot more trouble than engines. Why shell out for the 2nd turbine and go cheap on the 2nd pilot ?

Because, after 15,000 hours TT and 10,000+ hours in jets I figured that I could probably handle an Eclipse or Turbo Commander by myself.

Seriously, you raise a valid point. In a "working jet" I would agree with you. In a "retirement" airplane, one that isn't used to meet a hard schedule, it's simply a matter of "If the weather's not good enough today, we'll go tomorrow." Regardless, there's always the assumption that I'd spend the money to maintain currency AND proficiency.