peril of getting off/on aircraft with propeller spinning?

olasek

olasek

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olasek
23-year old model and the editor of fashion magazine LoLo Lauren Scruggs has been severely injured Saturday night at McKinney airport, Texas. She walked right into a spinning propeller after completing a flight to watch Christmas lights. She lost her left hand and suffered severe injuries to her face and brain, her left eye may not survive either. She was airlifted to a hospital in Dallas, after multiple reconstructive surgeries she seems to be responding to verbal commands and is able to move her other limbs.

She just got off a brand new 2011 Aviat Husky A-1C-180. The pilot was picking up the next passenger hence (my guess) he probably did not shut the engine down.

This brings a question - could a pilot be liable for not shutting down the engine? Frankly my mind is blank on the subject and I was startled by this accident.
 
Wow. Bummer. I hate being around whirling discs of death.

Had to jump out of a Musketeer the other day with it running, but stayed behind the wing.
 
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What's amazing is folks are still figuring out this is dangerous. It's just hard to see the same things happen over and over.

Best,

Dave
 
I remember my instructor getting out with the engine running, told me not to shut it down as he was opening the door, then told me to take it around for my first solo. It's the only time I've ever allowed that to happen, I was uncomfortable with it then but was too green to know the difference.
 
I've gotten out of my 152 with it runnin and a student in it on the brakes... I stay behind the strut and walk away from it towards the tail... But I know about that prop.

I feel really bad for that woman and the others involved. Pilots should watch over the "innocents" and just shut it down.
 
One thing I like on the Commander: It has a door lock feature to keep people from opening the door and walking right into the spinning prop. That thing just unnerves me with its position.

Very sad. :(
 
Someone here on POA, a few years back, posted a photo of the remains of a deer that was hit by a propeller. It's head was sliced so cleanly in half, I doubt a surgeon could have done a better job.

That one picture had a huge impact on me, to the point of paranoia about my propeller. I always shut down, no matter what the reason, if someone is either getting out of my plane or in the near vicinity of it.

I had a flight instructor drape his arms over my propeller while he was talking to me. I told him to get off the propeller, I didn't care if the keys were out or not. All it takes is a shorted out ground wire.

When it comes to propellers, be afraid, be very afraid.

John
 
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I was in Boulder a few days ago and as I was preflighting, I saw two guys in a Cessna try and taxi with all three tie downs attached. Just as I was thinking "I wonder when I'm going to do that", the right door pops open and the right-seater gets out and unties all three with the prop spinning. It was frightening. I was too far away to do anything but all I thought was "there's something I'll never do."
 
yea not the thing to be doing especially around untrained people. I believe Dave Bahnson once analyzed NTSB people walking into propellers reports and determined that in at least half the airplane was sitting still. People associate the lack of movement, regardless of the noise etc. that *nothing* on the plane is moving.
 
You should google the pics of the Continental mechanic who got sucked into a 737 engine during a run up. It's so graphic, it's almost not. If that makes sense.

Whirling metal blades should be on everyone's top 10 list of things to respect.
 
It's definitely an awareness area that students should respect. On the other hand, some of us do have to hand-prop aircraft, too...
Very sad story.

Ryan
 
Twice I've given some family and friends rides, where I had to do two flights. I shut down the engine in between hops. The hot start checklist is just sitting there, waiting to be used...
 
olasek said:
This brings a question - could a pilot be liable for not shutting down the engine?
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It is entirely possible, although I haven't researched the matter for case law either way.

That said, it wouldn't be hard to find a lot of expert witnesses to say that based on the history of such accidents, it is unreasonably dangerous to allow an untrained person to exit an aircraft with a whirling propeller out front.
 
Ron Levy said:
That said, it wouldn't be hard to find a lot of expert witnesses to say that based on the history of such accidents, it is unreasonably dangerous to allow an untrained person to exit an aircraft with a whirling propeller out front.
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Not to mention he let her out with the engine running at night!
 
BellyUpFish said:
You should google the pics of the Continental mechanic who got sucked into a 737 engine during a run up. It's so graphic, it's almost not. If that makes sense.

Whirling metal blades should be on everyone's top 10 list of things to respect.
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Mandatory viewing at the mechanic school I attended. Good reminder.
 
Googling "prop strike" and selecting "images" will give you some nightmares, too.
 
olasek said:
Perhaps all what he needed to do was to brief her on staying away from the front of the aircraft and going straight to the rear.
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Pilots and mechanics get killed by props too and we know better. I spend all too much time around spinning blades and have to be sure that I pay attention all the time to avoid becoming a smear down the side of a plane. Turn it off, a new plane should start ok hot. (even an old one should too but we all know that some times...)
 
BellyUpFish said:
You should google the pics of the Continental mechanic who got sucked into a 737 engine during a run up. It's so graphic, it's almost not. If that makes sense.

Whirling metal blades should be on everyone's top 10 list of things to respect.
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Yeah,,,, that 737 injestion deal was REAL graphic... my first reaction was,, poor guy,, my very next thought was' god help' the mechanic at the engine factory that has to dissemble it for the rebuild.

Sad for the girl in this topic.... It will be a life changing event for her.:sad::sad:

Ben.
 
Not again...:no: :(

I can understand not shutting down, but there are two requirements, IMHO, when you do that:
First, tell the exiting pax "walk straight out along the back of the wing- watch out for the prop. Watch out for the prop. Don't go near the prop." Mention that it will maim or kill them. Make them scared of it.
Second, have somebody knowledgeable approach the door to make sure that the pax does what you tell them.
 
It is illegal to allow people to enter or exit my aircraft with the engine running. Even when I flew skyhawks, I never allowed it. The starter works fine. Even with the big Continental, it will start up fast enough unless it sits idle for 20 minutes or more and allows the fuel lines to cook enough to vapor lock. Even then, knowing how to operate the engine gets her started in short order.
 
motospeed9058 said:
Here's an article on the incident. I'm with everybody else. Not in or out with the prop running. I even yelled at my Instructor the other day for opening the door with the prop still spinning. Sometimes getting complacent can have it's consequences as well.
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Yelled at him for opening the door? :rolleyes:

What was he about to do? You know if you lose your flight controls in flight, you can fly a C-172 (I don't know if that's what you're flying) with the doors and trim.. You have to open the doors to do it though.

Sometimes, you HAVE to operate around a spinning prop. It's best to just do your dead level best not to become complacent as you said.
 
rottydaddy said:
I can understand not shutting down, but there are two requirements, IMHO, when you do that:
First, tell the exiting pax "walk straight out along the back of the wing- watch out for the prop. Watch out for the prop. Don't go near the prop." Mention that it will maim or kill them. Make them scared of it.
Second, have somebody knowledgeable approach the door to make sure that the pax does what you tell them.
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The second part you mentioned is the key thing. The only time you should ever consider deplaning with an engine spinning would be if you have a separate crewmember or ground personnel standing by whose sole job is to ensure the exit the area without coming near the prop. But even then there are very few situations that warrant a need to board or exit an aircraft with an engine spinning.

We do it in the Navy all the time out of operational necessity, but again we have a whole gaggle of flight deck personnel and bona-fide safety officers to watch out for the pax. It's been a while since I flew on a regional turbo prop, but I recall alot of loading and unloading done on SAAB 340s and BE1900s where they shut down the left engine and kept the right spinning while loading, but again, you have personnel on the ramp to ensure no one goes to the wrong side.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The second part you mentioned is the key thing. The only time you should ever consider deplaning with an engine spinning would be if you have a separate crewmember or ground personnel standing by whose sole job is to ensure the exit the area without coming near the prop. But even then there are very few situations that warrant a need to board or exit an aircraft with an engine spinning.

We do it in the Navy all the time out of operational necessity, but again we have a whole gaggle of flight deck personnel and bona-fide safety officers to watch out for the pax. It's been a while since I flew on a regional turbo prop, but I recall alot of loading and unloading done on SAAB 340s and BE1900s where they shut down the left engine and kept the right spinning while loading, but again, you have personnel on the ramp to ensure no one goes to the wrong side.
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At the local airport fun day there are a few ' ie' warbirds and finnicky planes, that hate hot starts so we "hot load" the people in them.... There is just a few of us ground guys that do it and we take that job SERIOUSLY...... But.... in reality we all face peril daily.. Driving down a two lane road at 60 mph with a truck coming the other way at 60 and the only thing separating us from sure death is about 2 feet... Same distance as someone from a spinning prop..... Treat mechanical stuff like it will kill you... because it can.:yesnod::yesnod:
 
Ron Levy said:
It is entirely possible, although I haven't researched the matter for case law either way.

That said, it wouldn't be hard to find a lot of expert witnesses to say that based on the history of such accidents, it is unreasonably dangerous to allow an untrained person to exit an aircraft with a whirling propeller out front.
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I believe between 91.3 and 91.13 it would be an easy case to make.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Yelled at him for opening the door? :rolleyes:

What was he about to do? You know if you lose your flight controls in flight, you can fly a C-172 (I don't know if that's what you're flying) with the doors and trim.. You have to open the doors to do it though.
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Yeah, but that's an emergency situation - all normal rules (and regulations for that matter) go out the window in emergencies. You do what you gotta do.
 
woodstock said:
This makes me very sad. Poor kid. Her life will never be the same.
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The Pilot will have to live with this moment of stupidly the rest of his life.
 
This is a very, very sad story. What a tragedy. These little planes can be dangerous, we need to respect that.
 
But there is no FAA reg. that states that offloading (unescorted) passengers with prop running is an automatic violation, correct?
 
olasek said:
But there is no FAA reg. that states that offloading (unescorted) passengers with prop running is an automatic violation, correct?
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§ 91.13 Careless or reckless operation


 (a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.
 
olasek said:
But there is no FAA reg. that states that offloading (unescorted) passengers with prop running is an automatic violation, correct?
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Not as such. As I pointed out it is illegal in my plane as their is a specific restriction on entering or exiting the plane with the engine running. The type certificate requires it to be placarded.
 
dmccormack said:
§ 91.13 Careless or reckless operation


 (a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.
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You would be hard pressed to make a case for this because the aircraft was parked and the passenger ran into the prop.

I wonder if OSHA will require prop guards now? :dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
§ 91.13 Careless or reckless operation


 (a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.
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I think you're reaching here..

If a passenger walking into your prop is operating it carelessly or recklessly, Lord help us, we're all careless and wreckless.

Had he been doing wifferdills on a ramp full of people, sure, maybe.

I love how something bad happens to one person and we all gather up the mob to find out who needs to be hung in the town square.
 
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