PDA - who makes them anymore?

Bob Noel

Bob Noel

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Bob Noel
ok, my Palm Z22 has gone tango uniform - the touchscreen input is dead.

So I look at the palm website, just phones with PDA functions. Huh?

Other than the iPod Touch, aren't there any PDAs out there anymore?

Thanks
Bob
 
My Palm Centro is a better and more compact PDA than the Palm Tungstun/E it replaced, and I was able to ditch my phone to boot.
 
I think your only options really are to go with a phone/pda combo or a iPaq, unfortunately.
 
I probably should mention that my cellphone is just that, a phone. It's
not a camera, it's not for texting, it's not for surfing the web. It's a phone.

I'll probably end up with an iPod Touch... though I'll have to hold my nose if
it's made in China.
 
Just do it. Go with the iPhone or the Palm Pre.

Come on in! The water's fine! :yes:
 
iPhone or Palm Pre? feh - I don't even have GPS in my plane.
 
FlyNE said:
Just do it. Go with the iPhone or the Palm Pre.

Come on in! The water's fine! :yes:
Click to expand...
Problem with the iPhone is the phone service so I'd need a jailbroke one, and then the question becomes will it support my UMA service through T-Mobile? I got an iPod touch the other day and while using it I'm good with it, but I can't set it on the dash of the boat with a VoIP service like Skype running, because it shuts it down, and if I have something else open it doesn't seem to keep running in the back ground. As a PDA type device I think it would be fine.
 
Henning, as far as the background programs running good luck. I think that is one of Palm's selling points over apple. Apparently the Pre can do it, the i-whatever cannot. As for the shutting down thing, change the auto lock setting to never and it will stay on till you want it to shut off. Just have a charger handy if not pluged in while doing this. Battery life will be very short if you don't keep it plugged in.
 
For app-store apps on the iPhone, only one app is running at a time. When you hit the big button to exit an app, the app saves its state to flash, and then exits, and is no longer running. Some of the standard system apps do run all the time, in the background. The problem with letting app store apps run in the background is that you can run out of memory. This is one of the major pains of WIndows Mobile, the apps just accumulate, and you're continually having to manage the system, killing off apps to free up some memory, it's a pain.

For jailbreak apps, there should be nothing preventing an app from running in the background. The system can handle it just fine, it's just a convention enforced on the app store apps to eliminate one source of "user experience" problem.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
For app-store apps on the iPhone, only one app is running at a time. When you hit the big button to exit an app, the app saves its state to flash, and then exits, and is no longer running. Some of the standard system apps do run all the time, in the background. The problem with letting app store apps run in the background is that you can run out of memory. This is one of the major pains of WIndows Mobile, the apps just accumulate, and you're continually having to manage the system, killing off apps to free up some memory, it's a pain.

For jailbreak apps, there should be nothing preventing an app from running in the background. The system can handle it just fine, it's just a convention enforced on the app store apps to eliminate one source of "user experience" problem.
-harry
Click to expand...

Agree with the Windoze mobile thing- "closing" an app doesn't really close it and remove it from active memory like on big Windoze.
 
IMO, this is really a catch 22 for Apple. People want backgrounding apps, but if Apple allows it they have absolutely no control over battery life. I've noticed that many app developers could care less about battery life (focusing more on features that they know will sell). Two or three backgrouded apps could truly suck the life out of a battery in an hour or two. The average consumer would blame the phone...not the apps...perhaps giving it a undeserved bad reputation among consumers. Frankly, as bad as I'd love some apps that I could background, I understand why they're not allowing it (at least unless they could control how much battery a backgrounded app could use).
 
Jason- please bear with me for what sounds like a stoopid question.

Why would a background app use more battery? The CPU/memory is already running. The foreground app may run a bit slower (maybe that is the reason for not allowing programs to run in the background). The CPU and memory are drawing power if they are running anything.

When the phone is in standby (waiting for a call and not actively being used for an app with user input)- a poorly written app can cause problems such as turning on the back light, running the bluetooth all the time, etc- maybe that's where you were coming from?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Jason- please bear with me for what sounds like a stoopid question.

Why would a background app use more battery? The CPU/memory is already running. The foreground app may run a bit slower (maybe that is the reason for not allowing programs to run in the background). The CPU and memory are drawing power if they are running anything.

When the phone is in standby (waiting for a call and not actively being used for an app with user input)- a poorly written app can cause problems such as turning on the back light, running the bluetooth all the time, etc- maybe that's where you were coming from?
Click to expand...

Doing anything with the memory/CPU will cause the batteries to discharge. Sitting idle and waiting for a call with the screen off takes a certain amount of battery. Doing anything else will increase the draw.

Let's look at a very common background request, having an IM client running in the background so that if one of your friends sends you an IM message (even if the phone is in standby) it pops up and you start chatting with them. It not only takes the CPU/memory to maintain the client state, but you also throw in the overhead of managing the internet calls necessary to report in. It has to look up the IM servers in DNS, ping them periodically, switch back and forth between 3G and wifi depending on where you are, etc. That's a lot of processing going on for not much activity. Multiply that times three or four apps and it'll start using quite a few resources. Plus, you have no control over what the app does. If somebody wrote a client that actually crunched data of some sort the battery would drain very quickly. Savvy users would know why but your average consumer would not.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Jason- please bear with me for what sounds like a stoopid question.

Why would a background app use more battery? The CPU/memory is already running. The foreground app may run a bit slower (maybe that is the reason for not allowing programs to run in the background). The CPU and memory are drawing power if they are running anything.

When the phone is in standby (waiting for a call and not actively being used for an app with user input)- a poorly written app can cause problems such as turning on the back light, running the bluetooth all the time, etc- maybe that's where you were coming from?
Click to expand...

So, you know that a computing device like the iPhone runs on 1's and 0's, which are "on" and "off". Unlike something like a light switch, the "on" state doesn't use a significant amount of power, it's the switch from off to on or vice versa that uses power. So, if you have an app running in the background flipping these tiny switches, it's going to be using power. Sure, the phone uses a bit of energy waiting for a call, but any additional processing that goes on uses energy, whether it's in the background or not. By automatically killing anything that's not in the foreground, Apple is ensuring that only what you can see can use up your battery. Crummy for certain applications, but it keeps the user in charge.

I'm sure they'll have an ability to do backgrounding eventually, but they won't do it until they can ensure a seamless user experience. Look how long it took them to do copy and paste - But they got it right. :yes: The good news is that so far, none of the iPhone/iPod Touch devices have been obsoleted - I'm running the latest iPhone OS on the iPhone that I got the first week they were out (July 2007), and it now has MUCH more capability than it did then, for no additional cost.
 
FlyNE said:
Doing anything with the memory/CPU will cause the batteries to discharge. Sitting idle and waiting for a call with the screen off takes a certain amount of battery. Doing anything else will increase the draw.

Let's look at a very common background request, having an IM client running in the background so that if one of your friends sends you an IM message (even if the phone is in standby) it pops up and you start chatting with them. It not only takes the CPU/memory to maintain the client state, but you also throw in the overhead of managing the internet calls necessary to report in. It has to look up the IM servers in DNS, ping them periodically, switch back and forth between 3G and wifi depending on where you are, etc. That's a lot of processing going on for not much activity. Multiply that times three or four apps and it'll start using quite a few resources. Plus, you have no control over what the app does. If somebody wrote a client that actually crunched data of some sort the battery would drain very quickly. Savvy users would know why but your average consumer would not.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that we shouldn't go looking for SETI@Home for our iPhone or other mobile device?:)
 
gprellwitz said:
So you're saying that we shouldn't go looking for SETI@Home for our iPhone or other mobile device?:)
Click to expand...

You don't think just watching for new SMS messages or other push apps is work enough?
 
gprellwitz said:
So you're saying that we shouldn't go looking for SETI@Home for our iPhone or other mobile device?:)
Click to expand...

That's actually an example of a power hungary app since it uses whatever radios are in the phone to connect to the rest of the network to save its findings for the next calculations

I'm trying to think of an app that only works on local data, but everything I come up with is better done on a larger computer.

About the only thing I can come up with is using the camera to take a picture of the stars, then let the thing figure out where you are (ID the stars, use the internal clock to time, then use that to determine position)- but why bother when GPS works so well (The iPhone does have a GPS?)

I was going to say using the memory doesn't use that much power...until I that even in memory, flipping bits does generate some heat- which means battery power.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
That's actually an example of a power hungary app since it uses whatever radios are in the phone to connect to the rest of the network to save its findings for the next calculations

I'm trying to think of an app that only works on local data, but everything I come up with is better done on a larger computer.

About the only thing I can come up with is using the camera to take a picture of the stars, then let the thing figure out where you are (ID the stars, use the internal clock to time, then use that to determine position)- but why bother when GPS works so well (The iPhone does have a GPS?)

I was going to say using the memory doesn't use that much power...until I that even in memory, flipping bits does generate some heat- which means battery power.
Click to expand...

Jack,

A lot of iPhone developers are retarded. They build their apps by using Xcode and hammering a bunch of tutorials together and really know nothing about programming. They end up with something that is a lot more bloated than it has to be.

If you want to background the application -- there must be a reason you want to do so. If the app running meant nothing to you..you wouldn't background it. Most likely the application needs to capture and handle some event that can occur at any moment. The logic involved in constantly checking for that event would eat battery.

Apple is not saying that you couldn't background an app with minimal battery loss. The problem is that the bad programmers would ruin it and make the phone look bad when it gets 30 minutes to a charge.

I don't really believe that no ability to background is the solution though. If anyone can figure out a way to present the UI of running applications in a way that'll make sense and show people how much one may be hurting their battery life--it'll be apple.

On Google's Android platform you can background. I suspect Apple will change their mind some day.
 
jesse said:
Jack,

A lot of iPhone developers are retarded. They build their apps by using XcodeVisual Basic and hammering a bunch of tutorials together and really know nothing about programming. They end up with something that is a lot more bloated than it has to be.
Click to expand...
Fixed that for ya! (and this describes some of my code)

jesse said:
If you want to background the application -- there must be a reason you want to do so. If the app running meant nothing to you..you wouldn't background it. Most likely the application needs to capture and handle some event that can occur at any moment. The logic involved in constantly checking for that event would eat battery.
Click to expand...
Agreed- I used to do some stuff that would take a very long time to compute. Windows was actually good since I could get that stuff running in the background and waste CPU cycles on Word, e-mail, or other work. Recent computers now do the same calculations in minutes or seconds, hence my comment about using a desktop machine. The data acquisition I used to do was the other extreme- get a data point every millisecond or so, again, more suited for a desktop machine.

jesse said:
Apple is not saying that you couldn't background an app with minimal battery loss. The problem is that the bad programmers would ruin it and make the phone look bad when it gets 30 minutes to a charge.

I don't really believe that no ability to background is the solution though. If anyone can figure out a way to present the UI of running applications in a way that'll make sense and show people how much one may be hurting their battery life--it'll be apple.

On Google's Android platform you can background. I suspect Apple will change their mind some day.
Click to expand...

Actually I did think of an app I would like that would to work background- read the TAF for a local airport, parse out the barometer setting, and add it to a graph that goes back maybe 24 hr. It makes a graphing barometer. t would run once every 30 or 60 minutes (or whatever time the TAF gets updated). I sometimes run this on my desktop. The use of a timed event with a long period between runs reduces power load on the phone.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Actually I did think of an app I would like that would to work background- read the TAF for a local airport, parse out the barometer setting, and add it to a graph that goes back maybe 24 hr. It makes a graphing barometer. t would run once every 30 or 60 minutes (or whatever time the TAF gets updated). I sometimes run this on my desktop. The use of a timed event with a long period between runs reduces power load on the phone.
Click to expand...
If I were to build that I would just have a central server download the metars for every airport. The phone would just connect, grab the requested data, and graph it. No backgrounding required.
 
Henning said:
Problem with the iPhone is the phone service so I'd need a jailbroke one, and then the question becomes will it support my UMA service through T-Mobile? I got an iPod touch the other day and while using it I'm good with it, but I can't set it on the dash of the boat with a VoIP service like Skype running, because it shuts it down, and if I have something else open it doesn't seem to keep running in the back ground. As a PDA type device I think it would be fine.
Click to expand...

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/08/myfi-plus-ipod-touch-almost-equals-iphone/
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Actually I did think of an app I would like that would to work background-
Click to expand...

Pandora or Last.fm app playing music in the background during other activity - as the native "iPod" music application currently can. Now you have to exit Pandora to do anything else.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Pandora or Last.fm app playing music in the background during other activity - as the native "iPod" music application currently can. Now you have to exit Pandora to do anything else.
Click to expand...
Agree. That would be really nice.
 
jesse said:
If I were to build that I would just have a central server download the metars for every airport. The phone would just connect, grab the requested data, and graph it. No backgrounding required.
Click to expand...
Our difference in world views is interesting, possibly based on the resources each of us have and our backgrounds.

I don't believe I have access to a server that could access the metars for every airport and store it, hence my approach. Maybe my home computer; but it's off when not in use. I also suspect my access to the metars would be inefficient- download the web page with the data, parse out what I need based on some tutorial I saw someplace, store it. At least I would store it in a database now rather than a text file.

I would also only look at the place(s) I'm interested in...your approach is much better for an app others could use as well, and is better at generating subscription fees.

I'm not saying you are wrong- it's just a different approach than I'm used to- and I'm glad to see this approach and learn something.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Our difference in world views is interesting, possibly based on the resources each of us have and our backgrounds.
Click to expand...
Nearly everything I do is meant for many people to use it at once. Sometimes a few -- sometimes thousands.

Cap'n Jack said:
I don't believe I have access to a server that could access the metars for every airport and store it, hence my approach. Maybe my home computer; but it's off when not in use. I also suspect my access to the metars would be inefficient- download the web page with the data, parse out what I need based on some tutorial I saw someplace, store it. At least I would store it in a database now rather than a text file.
Click to expand...
You could rent one .. or use one of many of the cloud services out there. The data is pretty easy to get. It's all available via ftp:
ftp://tgftp.nws.noaa.gov/data/observations/metar/stations/

jack said:
I would also only look at the place(s) I'm interested in...your approach is much better for an app others could use as well, and is better at generating subscription fees.

I'm not saying you are wrong- it's just a different approach than I'm used to- and I'm glad to see this approach and learn something.
Click to expand...
Agree. If I were to do it I would intend on it being used by other people as well. That is generally the idea behind iPhone applications. You write them and publish them to the app store. The iPhone would then just make a web service call to your server with a few parameters and the server would return the exact data it needed.

Hell. Maybe I should build it. I'm not sure that anyone would be interested in using it but it would be rather simple. Current and historic metars on the iPhone with some graphing ability.
 
Last edited:
I'd be interested in using it but I don't own an iAnything.
 
FlyNE said:
Just do it. Go with the iPhone or the Palm Pre.

Come on in! The water's fine! :yes:
Click to expand...

And if you use the PDA functions of either phone for any amount of time, expect the battery to last less than a day.

THAT is the problem with current technology, and why my wife still uses an iPod for music and not her iPhone.
 
tdager said:
And if you use the PDA functions of either phone for any amount of time, expect the battery to last less than a day.

THAT is the problem with current technology, and why my wife still uses an iPod for music and not her iPhone.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it can be an issue...but only for heavier users. I use mine for the PDA functions. Checking e-mail throughout the day. On days that I use it heavily it needs a recharge by 10PM. On days that I use it "not-so-heavily" I could make it well through the night and into the next day.

If it really became an issue I'd just buy a dock for my desk and pop it in there for a few minutes while I was sitting at my desk.
 
mantakos said:
There's certainly historical METAR information out there, aviationweather.gov seems to go back about 36 hours.

These guys look to go back to 1998:
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/sa_parse-u.html
-harry
Click to expand...

Both of these are interesting- I just need to figure out how to send info to their form from my program...If I can do that, either has the data I want; the aviation weather.gov really gives me exactly what I need.

Thanks much!
 
tdager said:
And if you use the PDA functions of either phone for any amount of time, expect the battery to last less than a day.

THAT is the problem with current technology, and why my wife still uses an iPod for music and not her iPhone.
Click to expand...

Huh? I don't have that problem at all. And I use the hell out of my iPhone. I charge it when I'm sleeping, generally.

Of course, I don't use the default settings either. Turn off automatic e-mail checking (use push), turn off Bluetooth if you aren't using it, turn off "ask to join networks" for WiFi, and turn off WiFi entirely if you aren't using it. Battery life increases dramatically. :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Huh? I don't have that problem at all. And I use the hell out of my iPhone. I charge it when I'm sleeping, generally.

Of course, I don't use the default settings either. Turn off automatic e-mail checking (use push), turn off Bluetooth if you aren't using it, turn off "ask to join networks" for WiFi, and turn off WiFi entirely if you aren't using it. Battery life increases dramatically. :yes:
Click to expand...

Push only works with MS Exchange (or other ActiveSync servers). It's the instant version of automatic e-mail checking. The battery saving alternative to automatic e-mail checking is "manually".
 
tdager said:
And if you use the PDA functions of either phone for any amount of time, expect the battery to last less than a day.
Click to expand...
I have not charged my pda/phone since Tuesday, still going strong and I use air synch to keep the email and schedule up to date. If you had a phone lasting less than a day you might want to replace the battery.
 
smigaldi said:
I have not charged my pda/phone since Tuesday, still going strong and I use air synch to keep the email and schedule up to date. If you had a phone lasting less than a day you might want to replace the battery.
Click to expand...


I am not making this up...I have seen brand new iPhones used HEAVILY during the day barely make it to the charger at night.

Even Apple admits it and the suggestions to save the battery, ala what was mentioned above, are the "fixes". Of course all of those things are what is touted as the great things about the device, but of course to actually use it for any length of time one has to turn them off.

I swear that the marketing department at Apple is staffed with mini-gods who someone warp the minds of people to buy their products! :D
 
tdager said:
I am not making this up...I have seen brand new iPhones used HEAVILY during the day barely make it to the charger at night.

Even Apple admits it and the suggestions to save the battery, ala what was mentioned above, are the "fixes". Of course all of those things are what is touted as the great things about the device, but of course to actually use it for any length of time one has to turn them off.

I swear that the marketing department at Apple is staffed with mini-gods who someone warp the minds of people to buy their products! :D
Click to expand...

Good heavens, people. It's less than half an inch thick and weighs less than 5 ounces. Where do they put enough battery to get it to last 2-3 days? :D

Seriously, though. Everybody that I know that has a Crackberry has them strapped to their belt because they're too bulky to slip into a pocket. Or they have them laying on their desk while they're at the office. I'll take a one day battery life any day if I can carry the device in my pocket without feeling like I'm carrying a coin collection. You can pick portability or unlimited battery life, but you can't have both. :no: I'll take portability any day. That said, I've hardly ever run short of battery life unless I was REALLY using it a lot.

I get what you're saying Tom but, as with planes, every PDA has its pros and cons. If somebody made a true four seat plane that went 180 kts on 8 gph, there would be many less companies manufacturing GA aircraft. If somebody made a device as easy to use as the iPhone with a battery that lasted a week and was the size of a credit card Apple wouldn't be able to sell any iPhones nor RIM any Blackberrys. :)
 
I've had my iphone for 2 whole weeks now, so in my expert (sarcasm folks!) opinion, the battery life is ok for what the device is capable of. If I use it like I used my Blackjack II, the battery will last all day with no problems. If I use it like an iphone, it will last all day with no problems, just with less batery remaining at the end of the day. The only reprieve I get from the batery situation is that if I listen to the music on the phone via usb hookup to my car stereo, the phone is charging while playing.
 
FlyNE said:
Push only works with MS Exchange (or other ActiveSync servers). It's the instant version of automatic e-mail checking. The battery saving alternative to automatic e-mail checking is "manually".
Click to expand...

I have a MobileMe subscription, although I still give out the address as "@mac.com" instead of "@me.com" because I'm such a fanboy. ;)

The iPhone's push also works with MobileMe, and I heard about a week ago that you can get GMail to push to an iPhone now as well.

IMHO, the MobileMe subscription is WELL worth the price, if only for one feature: Find My iPhone!!! If you lose it or it gets stolen, you can get a Google map of where it is. You can send it a message to display on-screen - If you think it's been picked up by a good samaritan and turned in to a lost and found, you can send your landline (or another cell) number for them to call, or if you think it's been stolen you can mess with them. (I'll have to decide whether to display "Big Brother is watching..." or "The Matrix has you" in that case. :D) And, of course, you can track them - At least one thief has been apprehended that way. Finally, if it has sensitive information on it, you can do a remote wipe. VERY cool.
 
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