Past damage history

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Blueangel, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    I am looking at a plane that had a gear up belly landing 13 years ago. Seller passed away and trustee sent me the 337 forms and repairs done by replace engine and prop. Would you buy a plane with past major damage history if the prebuy checks out? How much value would you discount for past damage history? I've heard between 5-20% based on damage and how long ago it occurred.

    Most of the older 30+ year aircraft have had gear up landings from what I see.
     
  2. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If the aircraft was repaired properly ,and you get a good pre buy report, then you have to decide what the airplane is worth to you. The decision is Yours,this board has a lot of opinions,but they are not the buyers.
     
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  3. muddy00

    muddy00 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I just purchased a plane that had some wing damage in 83, I guess landing on a taxi way with a bac of .23 can make that happen , I figured after all these years it wasn't a concern. It was the plane I wanted with everything I required so I didn't let it affect me. Hopefully that doesn't bite me when I go to sell it.
     
  4. simtech

    simtech En-Route

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    Damage history wouldn't bother me if documented and has been flown many hours after the incident. I would venture to say most retractable gear planes that are older have been geared up once. Could be wrong though .

    Now had this happen only 100 hours ago I'd likely walk. but that's just me .

    Maybe the plane is already discounted for the past damage?
     
  5. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If repaired correctly, it is pretty much good as any non damaged aircraft except that it might be a bit heavier depending on the repair. The good thing for a buyer is that damage history often means a lower price so you can basically get an airplane that is actually worth more than you pay. The lower price mostly is a result of perceptions rather than any real reduction in true worth/value. If I found an airplane I really liked at the right price, a properly accomplished and documented repair would not stop me at all.
     
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  6. hotprops

    hotprops Line Up and Wait

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    the aircraft with the logbook entry are fixed much better than the ones without!
     
  7. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    1st look........If it has cherrymax rivets......Bad!
    Real bucked rivets................Much better.
     
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  8. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Sometimes blind fasteners have to be used. Repairs containing some cherry rivets are pretty common.
     
  9. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    I'd rather have a 40 year old bird with proper repairs and entries than the one who claims NDH. There are two types of planes out there. Ones with damage history and one with undocumented damage history.

    What I won't buy is one with fresh history and no hours on it. I'm not a test pilot.
     
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  10. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    The seller had a reman IO-470N engine and prop installed based on the logbooks. I still need to look at the 337s.
     
  11. Jumpmaster

    Jumpmaster Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Lots of older threads on this topic. I purchased my 91 Tiger that had some wing damage from hitting a tree on a low approach at night by the prior owner. The ironic thing about the damage was that it caused an inspection of the non damaged wing where a fair amount of corrosion was found that the owner missed in his prebuy.

    Both wings were repaired by a shop specializing in Grummans/American Generals in accordance with a DER's and factory repair instructions, 337s issued and are sound. I offered something less than the asking price, but really didn't consider it a discount as a result of the damage but more of a reflection of what I was willing to pay. As has been previously posted, buyer beware - there is a lot of undocumented damage and repairs out there along with corrosion and other related conditions, I would look closely at a 30-40 year old plane that claims NDH.
     
  12. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    Bad mechanics find more excuses and places to use cherrymax.
    Good mechanics know how to make bizarre shaped bucking bars.
     
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  13. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    There are places on aircraft that would require significant disassembly to install solid fasteners. Manufacturers, such as Boeing allow for blind fasteners in many instances.
     
  14. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

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    I worked with a guy who was good at bucking. He could get his hand into places I thought only a snake could go.
     
  15. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Shoulda been a proctologist!
     
  16. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Properly fixed it's a non issue, also 99.9% of all aircraft have damage history! it's just a matter of it's documented or not.

    I'd rather have it documented so I know where to double check on the prebuy.
     
  17. weirdjim

    weirdjim Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Or an OB/GYN.

    Jim
     
  18. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Riveting!
     
  19. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Anyways back to topic, the seller sent me fragment of the logbooks and no 337 forms so I'm gonna pass and keep looking for a plane without damage history.
     
  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    If you were really contemplating a buy, why didn't you have the aircraft history records from OKC? You would have already had any 337s in your hand.
     
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  21. Mason

    Mason Pattern Altitude

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    Or President.
     
  22. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well being President is like being a proctologist as you have to work with a bunch of aholes.
     
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  23. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Many folks use escrow/title agencies to handle their aircraft transactions. The title/337/record search is typically done by the escrow service (included in the escrow fees) obviously after you have put money into escrow.

    So, no real reason to pay extra for the record search to do it on your own in advance. If the seller can't provide strait-forward info and records up front, why put money down? While you can back out of escrow, you still forfeit a portion.
     
  24. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    You must work with a different caliber of owners/sellers than I have then. None of the sellers I've called could even tell me what the useful load was on the airplane they were selling was, much less be able to send me a weight and balance or know what a 337 form looks like or that it is needed.

    If I'm negotiating to buy an airplane I'd want to have the title and 337 records prior to negotiating a price and dealing with escrow. If I'm in a hurry for it I'll use one of the title search companies, otherwise I'll just get the CD with the same information on it from the FAA myself.
     
  25. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    When I bought my plane, the seller had the CD contents available online, and had scanned the important events from logbooks. If I intended to actually sell a plane, that's what I would do as well. Plenty of stuff for sale that actually isn't...
     
  26. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    In this case, the seller died of cancer so his sons are dealing the sale of the plan as part of an estate. I nicely asked them several times for logs and no dice. So I am moving on.
     
  27. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    If they're not aviation people they may not understand what you're asking for. Either go look at the logbooks and the airplane yourself to obtain the information you're looking for or get the information from the FAA. I'd get the title and 337 information from the FAA regardless to see how it matches up with what the owners have.
     
  28. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    True and I just reviewed the logs they sent me. My concern is the damage history and recent annual looks like what is called a pencil whipped ****poor annual done by a shade tree mechanic! I am working on my A&P right now and see all kinds of shady work done.
     
  29. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

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    My senses sharpen when I look at the logs that have the signature and license of the ap or - ai scrawled so they are illegible. I pass. I always ask the person working on my plane to print name, number clearly. Many lousy mechanics out there with the demise of GA. Be careful.i never bought a plane I could not afford and bought the best one I could find. Usually when you walk up to a real nice airplane , hangared, it's apparent what kind of care it's had but all ways have a pro inspect it. Many fairytales in log books.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
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  30. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Why would that stop you from getting the history CD from OKC? I'm sure your escrow service wouldn't.
    they could care less if you had the old 337s on the aircraft.
     
  31. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You are in the lessor .0000000001%. but no one needs to ask me for that, it's on my stickies.
     
  32. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My point is that you have to pay the FAA for that. It isn't free. The escrow services I have worked with provide it with the whole escrow package. Why pay twice? Now, if you are buying outside of escrow, or the escrow agent won't provide the history, then yes, order it yourself.
     
  33. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    That's the cheapest money you can spend, and should be done days prior to placing any money in escrow.
     
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  34. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

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    Wrong again tom .ive seen plenty of them. From others comments you seem to enjoy being wrong.
     
  35. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Well my spidey sense tells me to walk away. So I will keep looking. No rush on my part. If the plane was a steal and I already had my A&P and a shop with tools to work on neglected planes perhaps.
     
  36. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    The "real steals" usually have something wrong with them. If they are cream puffs they are priced like cream puffs.
     
  37. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    In all the years of signing log books I've never had any owner ask, what you ask your A&P to do. and I doubt you've seen that many A&Ps or log books.
     
  38. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    99% of the buyers could not spot a good deal on a cheap aircraft if it were presented to them. (specially the tire kickers here)
    Very few buyers even know what they are looking for.
     
  39. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    I just bought the first aircraft I saw. Much easier and faster that way. Had I looked for months, I would've lost thousands and thousands on rental fees. Cheaper just to jump in.
     
  40. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Let's just say I learned a whole lot the hard way from my first airplane purchase. The three after that were MUCH better.

    Still, the best aircraft purchase I I ever made was done with a handshake, no prebuy and the airplane was missing over 70 years worth of logs. And the seller and I still talk 2 years later.

    But I wouldn't recommend that as a routine course of action...