Passed Instrument written today! (but I still have a question)

problematique

problematique

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jay G
So I have the concept down with regards to holding patterns and entry for the most part, but don't remember what to do in the following situation:

Currently heading East on the 090 VOR radial.
Request is- "Hold East of the VOR on the 90 deg radial" (standard right turn)

Since I am already right on the 90 deg radial what is the entry pattern, Parallel or Teardrop?
From what I have studied I don't recall an example where you were smack dab on the defining radial with regards to entry. So of course that question on the test threw me off.
I'm picturing the "race track" above the radial, arrow closest to the radial pointing towards the station (on the East side).

Thanks
 
Depends on where they tell you yo hold in relation to the fix. They need either a dme or crossing radial to define the hold point.
 
Do you want the answer the DPE will want to hear? Or what happens in the real world after you get the blessing from the DPE?
 
Reread... you're saying hold AT the VOR?? Than your really not heading east on the 090.
You would be past the VOR.
 
problematique said:
So I have the concept down with regards to holding patterns and entry for the most part, but don't remember what to do in the following situation:

Currently heading East on the 090 VOR radial.
Request is- "Hold East of the VOR on the 90 deg radial" (standard right turn)

Since I am already right on the 90 deg radial what is the entry pattern, Parallel or Teardrop?
From what I have studied I don't recall an example where you were smack dab on the defining radial with regards to entry. So of course that question on the test threw me off.
I'm picturing the "race track" above the radial, arrow closest to the radial pointing towards the station (on the East side).

Thanks
Click to expand...
Could do a standard procedure turn with the right turn.
 
murphey said:
Could do a standard procedure turn with the right turn.
Click to expand...
He cannot be headed east on the 090 and instructed to hold at the VOR unless he is turned back.
He would already be passed the holding fix.
 
I suspect the best entry would be teardrop if your going back to a fix you've already passed since it would keep you on the holding side. Direct is obviously out, and parallel would put you on the wrong side needlessly.

I also suspect it is an instruction you'll never get, unless there is some crazy weather ahead that they want to flip you away from.
 
Kritchlow said:
Depends on where they tell you yo hold in relation to the fix. They need either a dme or crossing radial to define the hold point.
Click to expand...

Ok. So let's say there was an intersection on the 90 radial which I'm already on.
Here I am traveling Eastbound and now I need to get the airplane in the racetrack in which the inbound leg is in the opposite direction exactly on the very same radial. What is the "technical" entry?
A Standard right turn puts my "racetrack" on the bottom of the radial, which would be incorrect.
I know if I were on the 91 degree radial coming in it would be a teardrop. If I were on the 89 radial it would be parallel.
 
problematique said:
Ok. So let's say there was an intersection on the 90 radial which I'm already on.
Here I am traveling Eastbound and now I need to get the airplane in the racetrack in which the inbound leg is in the opposite direction exactly on the very same radial. What is the "technical" entry?
A Standard right turn puts my "racetrack" on the bottom of the radial, which would be incorrect.
I know if I were on the 91 degree radial coming in it would be a teardrop. If I were on the 89 radial it would be parallel.
Click to expand...
Were you told to hold east or west?
 
Kritchlow said:
He cannot be headed east on the 090 and instructed to hold at the VOR unless he is turned back.
He would already be passed the holding fix.
Click to expand...
That's right. Do a procedure turn past the VOR and come back to it.
 
problematique said:
So I have the concept down with regards to holding patterns and entry for the most part, but don't remember what to do in the following situation:

Currently heading East on the 090 VOR radial.
Request is- "Hold East of the VOR on the 90 deg radial" (standard right turn)

Since I am already right on the 90 deg radial what is the entry pattern, Parallel or Teardrop?
From what I have studied I don't recall an example where you were smack dab on the defining radial with regards to entry. So of course that question on the test threw me off.
I'm picturing the "race track" above the radial, arrow closest to the radial pointing towards the station (on the East side).

Thanks
Click to expand...

Assuming you were headed 090 and told hold east 090R and just want to know what entry. Track 090 for 1 minute, turn left into the holding side and track back to the VOR. A parallel entry.

Or turn 060 and tear drop, they both are correct because you are on the boundary. Most folks find the tear drop easier. Although really there is not much difference.
 
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problematique said:
Told to hold East
Click to expand...
If you're heading east on the 090 and told to hold at a fix in front of you with right turns, you would have an option of teardrop or Parellell.
The normal clearance would likely be hold east, thus a direct entry.

Truthfully if you stay in prtected airspace you can do a figure eight and you wouldn't be wrong.
 
Clip4 said:
Assuming you were headed 090 and told hold east 090R and just want to know what entry. Track 090 for 1 minute, turn left into the holding side and track back to the VOR. A parallel entry.

Or turn 060 and tear drop, they both are correct because you are on the boundary. Most folks find the tear drop easier. Although really there is not much difference.
Click to expand...

Well I hope both answers on the FAA exam are acceptable. Such a sneaky trick question they slid in there. I believe the FAA exams need to represent a more practical approach instead of putting a whole bunch of "gotcha" questions in there. I'm starting to remember back when I took my PPL written exam. So many BS questions...
Thanks guys.
 
problematique said:
So I have the concept down with regards to holding patterns and entry for the most part, but don't remember what to do in the following situation:

Currently heading East on the 090 VOR radial.
Request is- "Hold East of the VOR on the 90 deg radial" (standard right turn)

Since I am already right on the 90 deg radial what is the entry pattern, Parallel or Teardrop?
From what I have studied I don't recall an example where you were smack dab on the defining radial with regards to entry. So of course that question on the test threw me off.
I'm picturing the "race track" above the radial, arrow closest to the radial pointing towards the station (on the East side).
Click to expand...

You're asking what you should do when you receive improperly issued holding instructions. There's no good answer to that. You're heading east, tracking an airway radial, and are already past the VOR defining that airway. If the need to hold you arose it's unlikely you'd be held at a fix behind you.
 
Last edited:
problematique said:
Well I hope both answers on the FAA exam are acceptable. Such a sneaky trick question they slid in there. I believe the FAA exams need to represent a more practical approach instead of putting a whole bunch of "gotcha" questions in there. I'm starting to remember back when I took my PPL written exam. So many BS questions...
Thanks guys.
Click to expand...

You do realize the entries are based on headings, so in your scenario a 10 degree left correction for a north wind would a teardrop and a 10 degree tight correction for a south would be a parallel. The idea is to turn as little as possible.
 
Yes, of course. But for all intents and purposes no wind correction is to be introduced into the particular circumstance. There are no other variables beyond simply already being on the boundary like you mentioned before. And remember my question isn't for practical purposes, I just remember getting this tricky question on the FAA exam and I wanted the technical answer. I believe you were correct with your response, both entries are acceptable.
 
roncachamp said:
You're asking what you should do when you receive improperly issued holding instructions. There's no good answer to that. You're heading east, tracking an airway radial, and are already past the VOR defining that airway. If the need to hold you arose it's unlikely you'd be held at a fix behind you.
Click to expand...

That is kind of what I thought also, but the original question didn't make a lot of sense to me. It sounds like that question needs to be edited. :)
 
somorris said:
That is kind of what I thought also, but the original question didn't make a lot of sense to me. It sounds like that question needs to be edited. :)
Click to expand...

Indeed you may be correct about editing the question, but I tried to clarify my intent in post #8.
Basically just needed to know (technically) how to enter a standard pattern in which the intersection is on the current radial but the pattern is in the opposite direction.

So: heading east on the 90 deg.
Then request is to hold east of the next intersection.
After I pass the intersection I have to turn the airplane completely around to get on the inbound radial.
Teardrop? or Parallel? Perhaps both are correct.
 
problematique said:
So: heading east on the 90 deg.
Then request is to hold east of the next intersection.
After I pass the intersection I have to turn the airplane completely around to get on the inbound radial.
Teardrop? or Parallel? Perhaps both are correct.
Click to expand...
It's a silly question in several ways, something not unheard of in FAA testing, so I wouldn't worry about it now that you've passed the test. The real answer is that you would (probably) never get a hold that reverses your direction flying along an airway. But if you are on a missed approach on the way out to the MAP holding fix, then I could see it happening the way you describe. In reality it doesn't matter. If you are perfectly aligned 180° out, then pick what suits you. If you are 1° left or right, go with teardrop or parallel depending on which side you're on. I prefer teardrop entries so I'll do that if it's reasonably close. If I saw it on the test, I'd put both. If you are worried about getting that question on the Oral, I wouldn't worry about it. You understand the basic idea.
 
Can't help you with goofy FAA test. In the real world, controllers don't care (most can't name the entry methods...just asked 3 non pilot types and none could) how you enter a hold. Just do it on the protected side. I personally just do direct and teardrop.
 
Thanks for all the feedback, guys!
Time for me to start on the practical portion. Really wish there were some more clouds here in AZ!
 
problematique said:
Indeed you may be correct about editing the question, but I tried to clarify my intent in post #8.
Basically just needed to know (technically) how to enter a standard pattern in which the intersection is on the current radial but the pattern is in the opposite direction.

So: heading east on the 90 deg.
Then request is to hold east of the next intersection.
After I pass the intersection I have to turn the airplane completely around to get on the inbound radial.
Teardrop? or Parallel? Perhaps both are correct.
Click to expand...

I guess I didn't fully digest your further explanation in Post #8. I see what you are asking now. I think either Teardrop or Parallel would be correct since you are exactly on the "line" between the two FAA recommended entries. However, in practice, I would use Teardrop because (at least for me) it is easier to get established inbound with a Teardrop course reversal instead of Parallel. Whew!

Good luck on the practical!
 
problematique said:
Thanks for all the feedback, guys!
Time for me to start on the practical portion. Really wish there were some more clouds here in AZ!
Click to expand...

Good luck on the practical, but bite your tongue about wanting more clouds in AZ! <grin>.
 
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