Partnership

[BurtM]

OK, my partner and I have had a very successful relationship with a modified and updated C172M for coming up on 5 years.

When we initiated our agreement we tried to cover everything we could think of, but our partnership paperwork is silent with respect to updates/modifications. My partner is really wanting to replace our current GPS with a Garmin GTN 650.

This push started a couple of years ago when the WAAS thing started to materialize, and I've kind of put off the subject hoping Bendix/King would introduce a WAAS capable upgrade for our KLN94 but that never materialized.

One of the things that makes our partnership work is that my partner flies for business a several times a month, and his trip lengths make the 172 still workable in spite of its slowness. I fly after work and on weekends, so we've had only a couple of minor, but fixable schedule conflicts.

I fly strictly VFR and have no interest in getting an instrument rating. Go ahead and attack - I've had plenty of that from the local pilot population.

The real issue is the cost of the new Garmin. We don't have a firm quote from the radio shop, but we're guessing it will be $11k or so after install and trading off the KLN 94 and the comm radio that we'll no longer need.

I don't really feel like paying half of the new Garmin since I'll never use all of it's capability. But we have had a good arrangement with scheduling, and we have similar philosophies as far as maintenance, aircraft cleanliness, refueling, etc.

I am thinking that paying at least one or maybe two reputable appraisers to give us an estimate of how much more the AC would be worth with the new Garmin and offering to pay half the presumed sale value would be reasonable. Problem is, I have no idea where a fair-minded appraiser is. Yeah, AOPA and Trade-a Plane have With the declining market, I'm not sure even appraisers could tell me what I want to know...

The 172 is costing us about $82-$85 per hour to operate all-in with reserves, and I really don't want to go back to renting beater 172s with Reeses Pieces ground into the seat cushions or finding Mountain Dew bottles half full of chew spit or finding out they are down for a 100 hr. inspection in spite of scheduling 2 weeks ago.

What say you? This has been a really ideal arrangement up to now.
If push comes to shove, he can sell his share, which is covered in our agreement, or I can sell my share, which is likewise covered in our agreement. Or we can both punt and dissolve our partnership for what we can get out of it and both take a hit.

 

[dweyant]

I'm in a 50/50 partnership as well.

We have only had it a few months, so nothing like this has been an issue yet, but the way we put it in our agreement is: if both partners agree on an upgrade we split it, if only one wants it they can pay for it if they really want it, but it then becomes part of the plane and when the partnership is dissolved it is still 50/50.

I'll let you know in a few years how that works for us....


-Dan

 

[Jthamilton]

Bendix king is coming out with new com/nav waas capable unit.

They apparently enlisted the help of aspen avionics to help with their map portion. I was told it would cost around $13,000 and should be out in January as they were trying to iron out some issues.

I saw the unit at Oshkosh and it looks pretty nice. I apologize buti don't recall what it's designation was.

 

[BurtM]

I'm in a 50/50 partnership as well.

We have only had it a few months, so nothing like this has been an issue yet, but the way we put it in our agreement is: if both partners agree on an upgrade we split it, if only one wants it they can pay for it if they really want it, but it then becomes part of the plane and when the partnership is dissolved it is still 50/50.

I'll let you know in a few years how that works for us....


-Dan

When we flew the new to us bird home, we both said that it needed shoulder harnesses. Neither one of us hesitated at the cost to install the BAS harnesses, which wasn't pocket change, and that wasn't addressed in our partnership agreement, probably because it was so obvious it was a required safety item that neither ones of us gave it a second thought...live and learn I guess

 

[BurtM]

Bendix king is coming out with new com/nav waas capable unit.

They apparently enlisted the help of aspen avionics to help with their map portion. I was told it would cost around $13,000 and should be out in January as they were trying to iron out some issues.

I saw the unit at Oshkosh and it looks pretty nice. I apologize buti don't recall what it's designation was.

Do you know if it's a plug-and-play replacement? That would really be a good thing for us.

 

[denverpilot]

Bendix king is coming out with new com/nav waas capable unit.

They apparently enlisted the help of aspen avionics to help with their map portion. I was told it would cost around $13,000 and should be out in January as they were trying to iron out some issues.

I saw the unit at Oshkosh and it looks pretty nice. I apologize buti don't recall what it's designation was.

I played with the demo unit at OSH and hated the joystick (turbulence and a joystick, NFW!) and watched the thing consistently pull up the wrong SID when you selected another one.

Software seemed only half-baked. I'd wait on their stuff if you are in the "must have Bendix-King" crowd.

 

[steingar]

The real issue is the cost of the new Garmin. We don't have a firm quote from the radio shop, but we're guessing it will be $11k or so after install and trading off the KLN 94 and the comm radio that we'll no longer need.

I don't really feel like paying half of the new Garmin since I'll never use all of it's capability. But we have had a good arrangement with scheduling, and we have similar philosophies as far as maintenance, aircraft cleanliness, refueling, etc.

First, $11K sounds way cheap for the avionics you're describing. The instal for a 430 was going to fun me $13K, and it isn't a touch screen too-ha unit.

You have an excellent partnership, where the aircraft is flown enough to keep the engine fresh, but you still have it available for your jaunts. That sounds like an enviable setup. Question is, what is it worth to you to keep it? I doubt you'll get all or even any of your money back out of the install, airplane prices have been in a free-fall for years.

You might be able to reach a compromise where less desirable avionics are added the the aircraft, controlling costs. However, installation is always very expensive, so you will be spending $10-11K no matter what you do.

 

[rpadula]

Are you people talking about the KSN-770? It's still not finished yet?

That thing will never come out. I saw one at NBAA in Atlanta a few years ago, and it was "just around the corner" then, and that was already some time after it had been announced. I would not hold my breath for it, nor would I expect it to be a savings vs. a Garmin.

 

[wabower]

And if the unit somehow miraculously makes it to market, what realistic level of demand will materialize? And if you happen to be one of the 50 people who buy one during the next 5 years, how much will it be worth when you try to sell the plane?

All things considered, and if you want to continue to fly, your best strategy is to STXU and pay for your part of the upgrade.

Are you people talking about the KSN-770? It's still not finished yet?

That thing will never come out. I saw one at NBAA in Atlanta a few years ago, and it was "just around the corner" then, and that was already some time after it had been announced. I would not hold my breath for it, nor would I expect it to be a savings vs. a Garmin.

 

[silver-eagle]

The trade in value of the 94 is nearly zip. If you leave it for the shop to sell on your behalf, you might get 1K out of it. It's a plug replacement for the 89B if I recall (or was that the 90?).
You will still benefit from the hardware install even if you don't fly IFR. The extra bells will help with situational awareness. Plus there is the resale vlue of the aircraft.
Would he consider a different split on the upgrade? Ask about a 20/80. Or promise to not use it at all and have him pay the whole freight.

 

[dell30rb]

For VFR flying, you can get more situational awareness and practical use out of an ipad and foreflight.

I'd ask about paying 1/3 or something. If you were maintaining a 182, mooney or bonanza - what many would consider a faster, IFR platform transportation plane I can see that it would be expected to keep up with the avionics a bit more. Not necessarily latest and greatest, but you would expect a plane like that to have a good autopilot and WAAS capable GPS.

A 172M is a trainer.. give me a 6 pack and a pair of nav radios.

Our club recently upgraded our older warrior II's with brand new 650's. I don't know why. I can see why we put them in our mooney's and our newer 172SP's but the warriors? They are nice to have but the money could have been better spent elsewhere.. like lowering the hourly cost.

 

[jason]

OK, my partner and I have had a very successful relationship with a modified and updated C172M for coming up on 5 years.

When we initiated our agreement we tried to cover everything we could think of, but our partnership paperwork is silent with respect to updates/modifications. My partner is really wanting to replace our current GPS with a Garmin GTN 650.

This push started a couple of years ago when the WAAS thing started to materialize, and I've kind of put off the subject hoping Bendix/King would introduce a WAAS capable upgrade for our KLN94 but that never materialized.

One of the things that makes our partnership work is that my partner flies for business a several times a month, and his trip lengths make the 172 still workable in spite of its slowness. I fly after work and on weekends, so we've had only a couple of minor, but fixable schedule conflicts.

I fly strictly VFR and have no interest in getting an instrument rating. Go ahead and attack - I've had plenty of that from the local pilot population.

The real issue is the cost of the new Garmin. We don't have a firm quote from the radio shop, but we're guessing it will be $11k or so after install and trading off the KLN 94 and the comm radio that we'll no longer need.

I don't really feel like paying half of the new Garmin since I'll never use all of it's capability. But we have had a good arrangement with scheduling, and we have similar philosophies as far as maintenance, aircraft cleanliness, refueling, etc.

I am thinking that paying at least one or maybe two reputable appraisers to give us an estimate of how much more the AC would be worth with the new Garmin and offering to pay half the presumed sale value would be reasonable. Problem is, I have no idea where a fair-minded appraiser is. Yeah, AOPA and Trade-a Plane have With the declining market, I'm not sure even appraisers could tell me what I want to know...

The 172 is costing us about $82-$85 per hour to operate all-in with reserves, and I really don't want to go back to renting beater 172s with Reeses Pieces ground into the seat cushions or finding Mountain Dew bottles half full of chew spit or finding out they are down for a 100 hr. inspection in spite of scheduling 2 weeks ago.

What say you? This has been a really ideal arrangement up to now.
If push comes to shove, he can sell his share, which is covered in our agreement, or I can sell my share, which is likewise covered in our agreement. Or we can both punt and dissolve our partnership for what we can get out of it and both take a hit.

Another compromise would be to buy a used 430W and pay for half of that instead. Honestly, I think that would still run you $11,000. I think you're low on your estimate for the GTN. Investing in one of these truly will make a difference in the value of your airplane.

I'm in a 50/50 partnership as well.

We have only had it a few months, so nothing like this has been an issue yet, but the way we put it in our agreement is: if both partners agree on an upgrade we split it, if only one wants it they can pay for it if they really want it, but it then becomes part of the plane and when the partnership is dissolved it is still 50/50.

I'll let you know in a few years how that works for us....


-Dan

If I were to enter a partnership, this is how it would work.

 

[dell30rb]

If I were to enter a partnership, this is how it would work.

I'm in agreement there.. it seems to me that if he insisted on you writing a 7k check for the new GPS, well that is quite a bit of money. Again on a mooney or bonanza, maybe not. But as far as the maintenance/operating/insurance costs for your 172, having to write a big check like that will blow your yearly operating budget right out of the water.

If you really need an excuse, just tell him its not in your budget and you can't afford it. You were anticipating 1-3k per year for annual and other maintenance costs, and you have cash saved for an emergency like a blown engine.... but the upgrade is not in the cards

 

[wabower]

Yep, then lose your ass on the sale of the plane, go look for another airplane and another partner that works as well as the deal you have now or buy one yourself and support the entire own-op cost yourself.

I'm in agreement there.. it seems to me that if he insisted on you writing a 7k check for the new GPS, well that is quite a bit of money. Again on a mooney or bonanza, maybe not. But as far as the maintenance/operating/insurance costs for your 172, having to write a big check like that will blow your yearly operating budget right out of the water.

If you really need an excuse, just tell him its not in your budget and you can't afford it. You were anticipating 1-3k per year for annual and other maintenance costs, and you have cash saved for an emergency like a blown engine.... but the upgrade is not in the cards

 

[dell30rb]

Yep, then lose your ass on the sale of the plane, go look for another airplane and another partner that works as well as the deal you have now or buy one yourself and support the entire own-op cost yourself.

I understand that it is necessary to compromise in a partnership to keep things rolling smoothly.

Just making the point that 14k is a lot to spend on a 172M for an upgrade.

 

[rpadula]

My partner is really wanting to replace our current GPS with a Garmin GTN 650.

This push started a couple of years ago when the WAAS thing started to materialize, and I've kind of put off the subject hoping Bendix/King would introduce a WAAS capable upgrade for our KLN94 but that never materialized.

Does it have to be the GTN650? It has COMM and NAV, but your KLN94 is GPS only. You could consider putting in a GPS-only GPS400W instead and save some bucks. The local avionics shop I used to use still has "limited supply" of these units, or so their web site says...

 

[jhausch]

My vote - pay for half or grant him full cash value of half of full install cost of form final sale of the AC.

That really says, "I'm in 50/50" or "I can't afford it, I won't use it, but if you want it and want to pay for it, you should not be punished by my not wanting it".

Are you IR? If not, if you go for IR, I might then insist you come up with the half....

Frankly, if you have halfway decent credit all the card companies are always sending those "3 (or 4%) upfront and no interest for a year" checks out. I'd use one of those and just pay it off over the course of the year.

PS -amend the agreement, too :wink2:

 

[Jthamilton]

I played with the demo unit at OSH and hated the joystick (turbulence and a joystick, NFW!) and watched the thing consistently pull up the wrong SID when you selected another one.

Software seemed only half-baked. I'd wait on their stuff if you are in the "must have Bendix-King" crowd.

That's apparently the reason for the January release. The salesman said they had some bugs to work out.

 

[Jthamilton]

Are you people talking about the KSN-770? It's still not finished yet?

That thing will never come out. I saw one at NBAA in Atlanta a few years ago, and it was "just around the corner" then, and that was already some time after it had been announced. I would not hold my breath for it, nor would I expect it to be a savings vs. a Garmin.

It is the ksn - 770, it was mentioned that they released it far too early, they have formed an agreement with aspen for its new release. You can't compare the bendix king with the garmin products since they have had their butts kicked the last few years. However I wouldn't close the door until the final product is reviewed.

 

[wabower]

You would if you had been watching BK stumble bumble and fumble for the past 20 years.

Pop quiz: Name their last really good product.
Answer: KLN-90B

Game over.

It is the ksn - 770, it was mentioned that they released it far too early, they have formed an agreement with aspen for its new release. You can't compare the bendix king with the garmin products since they have had their butts kicked the last few years. However I wouldn't close the door until the final product is reviewed.

 

[Jthamilton]

I don't disagree that garmin has ruled the roost for a good while. I would hate to see a good product passed up before its had time to screw itself.

This is especially true for someone Like myself, the aircraft I'm purchasing is all BK from Cessna when it rolled off the line in 2002.

I would love to switch it to all garmin if and when the need arises but simply can't justify the expense.

I'm just tickled pink to be getting wings and an engine again! What GPS?

 

[jbarrass]

My vote - pay for half or grant him full cash value of half of full install cost of form final sale of the AC.

This is how our agreement works. It's a nice compromise. We keep a spreadsheet tracking the dollars in and the ratio is how the proceeds are split up in the end.

PS -amend the agreement, too :wink2:

Yes, for sure. This will come up again. Imagine the discussion around an 1800 hour engine that needs major work.......or maybe an overhaul.....

 

[wabower]

I'd be willing to bet that most of the planes of that vintage have BK equipment other than the navigators which have all been switched out to Garmin. BK made some good stuff, the only problem is that they made it 30 years ago. John Carocari was the lead engineer on the KLN88-89-90 boxes and much of the other pulse stuff they made. He was also my back-fence neighbor in KS and the father of my kids' best friends. He said the dance ended when the Global group was given control of GA and basically shoved BK into the closet where they stayed for 15 years with no viable means of ever catching up.

I don't disagree that garmin has ruled the roost for a good while. I would hate to see a good product passed up before its had time to screw itself.

This is especially true for someone Like myself, the aircraft I'm purchasing is all BK from Cessna when it rolled off the line in 2002.

I would love to switch it to all garmin if and when the need arises but simply can't justify the expense.

I'm just tickled pink to be getting wings and an engine again! What GPS?

 

[Geico266]

Bendix king is coming out with new com/nav waas capable unit.

They apparently enlisted the help of aspen avionics to help with their map portion. I was told it would cost around $13,000 and should be out in January as they were trying to iron out some issues.

I saw the unit at Oshkosh and it looks pretty nice. I apologize buti don't recall what it's designation was.

It is ridiculous to pay that kind of money for second hand technology in certified aircraft. I am amazed at how many people still allow themselves to be trapped by the certified scam.

Go experiential!

 

[Sportsman]

You can't split future sales proceeds based on the ratio of improvements unless you can calculate the value added by the upgrade. It's not a 1:1 ratio

 

[kgruber]

I remember the exact moment King became "king of the hill." It was the release of the KX-170.

I installed serial #0001, or something, in my seaplane. Nanaimo radio didn't believe I was in their harbor when I was talking to them. They had never been able to talk with an airplane on the water before.

 

[BurtM]

First, $11K sounds way cheap for the avionics you're describing. The instal for a 430 was going to fun me $13K, and it isn't a touch screen too-ha unit.

You are probably correct - we don't have a firm quote from the radio shop and I have no feel for what new and used avionics are worth.

You have an excellent partnership, where the aircraft is flown enough to keep the engine fresh, but you still have it available for your jaunts. That sounds like an enviable setup. Question is, what is it worth to you to keep it? I doubt you'll get all or even any of your money back out of the install, airplane prices have been in a free-fall for years.

It is an eviable setup. I could go several lifetimes and not have a better partner. Keeping my partner has a lot of intrinsic value, or what you would call "goodwill" if you were selling a business. No doubt about about that.

You might be able to reach a compromise where less desirable avionics are added the the aircraft, controlling costs. However, installation is always very expensive, so you will be spending $10-11K no matter what you do.

I've been flying long enough to know that there is no cheap solution when it comes to something with wings. That's why I did the partnership thing. Not trying to be el cheapo, but any 5 digit number is pretty serious money to me, especially when it comes to putting it into an almost 40 year old aircraft.

 

[BurtM]

And if the unit somehow miraculously makes it to market, what realistic level of demand will materialize? And if you happen to be one of the 50 people who buy one during the next 5 years, how much will it be worth when you try to sell the plane?

I have no idea, really. King radios used to be good stuff, I guess that has changed. Seems like Garmin is the only game in town these days. When I first started skidding around the skies, there were lots more brands like Genave, Terra, Narco and so on. You never saw Genave stuff in Bonanzas but it was an option for people at the low end of the spectrum that wanted to talk to FSS.

Oh, and before anyone jumps me for lumping Narco into the Genave category, I'm not. Narco was good stuff, I just heard they were out of business, that's all.

All things considered, and if you want to continue to fly, your best strategy is to STXU and pay for your part of the upgrade.

You're probably right. There is value in just shutting up and breaking out the checkbook to preserve our arrangement.

But putting what may be $14k into a 172N whose value is undetermined today but surely less than we paid for 5 years ago seems a little steep for the sake of domestic tranquility.

I keep a flying fund that has enough to cover what I think I'll spend this year plus half of what I think we might have to spend to pay for an engine overhaul if something really goes south plus a few k extra. But I'm not made of money so $7k is painful to me.

 

[BurtM]

For VFR flying, you can get more situational awareness and practical use out of an ipad and foreflight.

That's true. I learned pilotage and ded reckoning, so using sectionals works for me, too. But that's not appropriate for what my partner needs, who wants the LPV approaches and the ability to get XM weather that the upgrade would bring. If I flew in IMC, I'd want that too.

A 172M is a trainer.. give me a 6 pack and a pair of nav radios.

Point taken. But with the 180 HP conversion it has what I need. I do remember when new 172s of our vintage were considered fully equipped when the had dual navcoms and an ADF. Times change

[quoteOur club recently upgraded our older warrior II's with brand new 650's. I don't know why. I can see why we put them in our mooney's and our newer 172SP's but the warriors? They are nice to have but the money could have been better spent elsewhere.. like lowering the hourly cost.[/QUOTE]

That seems rather misguided to me, too. Upgrading one, maybe, but both??? Unless everyone has fallen into the, "You must have an IR if you hope to survive" spiel that isn't reality.

 

[BurtM]

The trade in value of the 94 is nearly zip. If you leave it for the shop to sell on your behalf, you might get 1K out of it. It's a plug replacement for the 89B if I recall (or was that the 90?).
You will still benefit from the hardware install even if you don't fly IFR. The extra bells will help with situational awareness. Plus there is the resale vlue of the aircraft.
Would he consider a different split on the upgrade? Ask about a 20/80. Or promise to not use it at all and have him pay the whole freight.

The KLN 94 was installed in 2003, if I remember correctly from reading the logs. So, it's coming up on 10 years old. That's a long time, and it makes sense that it isn't worth much used, especially given the new aircraft with full computer screens in the panel. I don't know what's a reasonable lifetime prediction for a box full of computer chips. It hasn't given us any trouble in the last 5 years, but it isn't reasonable to expect it will last forever, either.

The split on the cost I'm sure is negotiable. He's a reasonable person, and I'm trying to be one, too. At some point our aircraft will be essentially worthless without a modern GPS. Unless there's a potential buyer that's like me that still has a sectional subscription which isn't too likely.

It may become worthless unless it has a parachute. It may become worthless because there is simply no one left that is interested enough in flying to go through the brain damage and expense of PP-ASEL training.

I don't want to get into a, "what's your is yours and what's mine is mine" situation with my partner where he buys the GPS and I don't use it because I didn't pay for it. That would be like coming home, backing the plane into the hangar and having the fridge with no beer - neither one of us want that.

 

[BurtM]

Does it have to be the GTN650? It has COMM and NAV, but your KLN94 is GPS only. You could consider putting in a GPS-only GPS400W instead and save some bucks. The local avionics shop I used to use still has "limited supply" of these units, or so their web site says...

Thanks! That may be an option. Will have to check with the radio shop. The Garmin box, as I understand it, is taller than the existing King GPS, so I don't know if it will fit in the center stack since we would need to keep our separate comm if we went with that. But it is worth asking. Thanks, again!

 

[wabower]

Burt,

I've read your responses carefully. If you ever move to Dallas I'd be tickled to have you as a partner.

 

[W. Stewart]

That's true. I learned pilotage and ded reckoning, so using sectionals works for me, too. But that's not appropriate for what my partner needs, who wants the LPV approaches and the ability to get XM weather that the upgrade would bring. If I flew in IMC, I'd want that too.

He won't be getting XM without a box (GDL-69, I think?) to feed that into the panel-mount GPS. Will you be expected to ante up for that, too? A 496 (or similar) portable is the way to go for that.

Wells

 

[BurtM]

Burt,

I've read your responses carefully. If you ever move to Dallas I'd be tickled to have you as a partner.

Thanks!

I've been to Dallas a few times and I liked it as soon as I figured out that using turn signals in a rental car was considered an act of northern aggression.

Other than about getting run down by one of those yellow above-ground subways that run around the west end it seems like a nice town - that and the lack of snow in the winter...

I would be honored to go smash some bugs with you sometime. If you wanna buy into the world's most over-improved C-172, there might be an opportunity in the next 6 months or so...

How far away from Dallas is Bryan? My sis was born there and dad got turned out in the F-86D there more than half a century ago. It would be pretty fun to go there - if it still exists. I've XC'd to everywhere he trained at/was stationed at except there.

 

[jason]

Thanks!

I've been to Dallas a few times and I liked it as soon as I figured out that using turn signals in a rental car was considered an act of northern aggression.

Other than about getting run down by one of those yellow above-ground subways that run around the west end it seems like a nice town - that and the lack of snow in the winter...

I would be honored to go smash some bugs with you sometime. If you wanna buy into the world's most over-improved C-172, there might be an opportunity in the next 6 months or so...

How far away from Dallas is Bryan? My sis was born there and dad got turned out in the F-86D there more than half a century ago. It would be pretty fun to go there - if it still exists. I've XC'd to everywhere he trained at/was stationed at except there.

According to the internets...3 hours by car or 137nm by air (to KADS)

 

[wabower]

Bryan is a couple hunnerd south, near College Station, so if you visit there you're likely to come away with some new material

Thanks!

I've been to Dallas a few times and I liked it as soon as I figured out that using turn signals in a rental car was considered an act of northern aggression.

Other than about getting run down by one of those yellow above-ground subways that run around the west end it seems like a nice town - that and the lack of snow in the winter...

I would be honored to go smash some bugs with you sometime. If you wanna buy into the world's most over-improved C-172, there might be an opportunity in the next 6 months or so...

How far away from Dallas is Bryan? My sis was born there and dad got turned out in the F-86D there more than half a century ago. It would be pretty fun to go there - if it still exists. I've XC'd to everywhere he trained at/was stationed at except there.

 

[AggieMike88]

Burt,

I've read your responses carefully. If you ever move to Dallas I'd be tickled to have you as a partner.

Ditto!

 

[Off In The Jungle]

You may be able to scoop up a used garmin 430w as well for a bit less than the new 650. Reputable shops sell them on ebay, but so do unknown sellers so use caution.

I am a mostly VFR pilot, with sporatic IFR, and the GPS is really something I have come to love. Is it a requirement, obviously not, but over desert, mountains, or jungles it is a God send.

Another cool thing you can get very cheaply after a GPS install is a fuel flow transducer and panel guage like a fuel scan 450. I think they run $500 before install. Anyways when plugged into a GPS they give you all kinds of great info regarding your fuel situation that is awesome. I had a horrible VFR day one day and it gave me peace of mind when trying to assess my fuel reserves as the weather was going to crap and my landing options are few here in Asia.

Cessna guages are horrible for fuel planning and when the chips are down cannot be trusted.

 

[denverpilot]

One local mechanic says he can refer us to a place that would install a Garmin 430 competely for "around $8000". How "around" it is, we haven't pursued finding out yet. Also probably doesn't include dropping everything down in the stack to put it up top, nor the CDI swap that would be necessary.

 

[steingar]

One local mechanic says he can refer us to a place that would install a Garmin 430 competely for "around $8000". How "around" it is, we haven't pursued finding out yet. Also probably doesn't include dropping everything down in the stack to put it up top, nor the CDI swap that would be necessary.

I'll b0te money that install doesn't include the indicator, which you'll need if'n you want to fly the glideslope.