Paris attack.... how might we protect ourselves?

[kyleb]

Why do you say there is nothing we can do about it? Or, are you just saying it's not worth doing anything about it?

Because the reality is that unless we want a police state, hell, even in a police state, you can't prevent this stuff. Remember the French Resistance, which was somewhat effective even with a German occupation? There are >300 million people in the US and you cannot get a good enough handle on all of 'em to prevent this.

Beyond that, we cannot effectively protect soft targets - schools, malls, theaters, stadiums, etc. Take away all the guns and only the terrorists will have weapons (see: Paris, yesterday). Allow firearms, and you have another set of problems.

Back when I was a kid, you could walk into the "better" local farm store and buy sticks of dynamite for things like stump removal. Somebody decided that was a bad idea, and they don't sell OTC dynamite any more. So bad guys moved to diesel and ammonium nitrate. Bottom line, people with evil intent will find a way.

But they kill a small fraction of the number we kill ourselves with accidental firearm deaths, auto accidents, falls, etc. My chances of being hurt or killed in a terrorist event are slim to none. So I don't worry too much about it. If something "goes down" around me, my idea is to head the other way, with my family, as fast as possible.

 

[Henning]

Yes, it's really our fault because we spend money to own and fly planes instead of giving it to Muslims.

No, it's because we control food prices and if you can't afford it, **** you. We use food as well as weapons to exert political and financial control, and like money, we give it to despots and we only give it if it's in our interests or there is a large enough public outcry. Our food industry is becoming global pariah due to Monsanto.

The Muslims just want us to give up usury and get rid of the petrodollar influence, they literally don't want our money because it s against their social rules. Food as a direct trade medium would force them to live in peace with us.

 

[jimson]

No, it's because we control food prices and if you can't afford it, **** you. We use food as well as weapons to exert political and financial control, and like money, we give it to despots and we only give it if it's in our interests or there is a large enough public outcry. Our food industry is becoming global pariah due to Monsanto.

The Muslims just want us to give up usury and get rid of the petrodollar influence, they literally don't want our money because it s against their social rules. Food as a direct trade medium would force them to live in peace with us.

How do we control the price of locally produced falefel in Syria?

 

[Jimmy cooper]

You can certainly have social rules against it as society chooses, and people within society are free to enforce them as they see fit. In an anarchy situation where everyone is potentially lethally armed, and most are, then the system of social justice will tend to be immediate and on location. However anarchy eliminates 'crime' to begin with, and that provides its own benefits because much malevolence in society is created by creating crimes and criminals out of matters of free will that harm no one beyond the limits of social order. The majority of crime and violence in the U.S. revolves around the vice trades and the fact that they are illegal. Now you eliminate 30% of non accidental gun deaths in America. Wait you say, only 30% attributable to crime? Yep, 2/3rds are suicides. That is the point that is always overlooked in gun control arguments. When you look at that, the rampant illicit drug use and factor in that around a third of our society is medicated for depression or anxiety, you have to begin to question how bad our society sucks when that many people are ****ed up.

When Israeli troops were no longer allowed to take their guns home, suicide rate dropped by fourty percent. When Australia had their "gun roundup" , gun deaths dropped by 54percent. Alcohol and drugs are responsible for a great many gun deaths also. In the days John Wayne portrayed in the movies , the old west, guns were not allowed in town. You had to check them with the sheriff. ( John Wayne was 4f in real life. Did not serve)

 

[Henning]

How do we control the price of locally produced falefel in Syria?

Because food is traded on a global commodity market. The thing is they can't really produce enough for their population to be properly nourished, so it has to be supplemented by foreign market resources, and the price of those resources drives the price of local resources, and the local resources are often owned by the potentate we support with arms. The story is as old as Joseph in the Bible and using God's warning to prepare for famine and using it to enslave all of Egypt. The Islamic butthurt goes all the way back there, and that is the basis of the divide between Islam and Israel, and as the initial act of infidelity which has never been rectified, creates their cry for the elimination of Israel. Again, Israel is in the position to choose to end the conflict with Islam and force peace, they just have to let go of usury which they accepted as they approached Caanan against God's prohibitions.

All we have to do to force peace with Islam is to give up what damages our own society most. I don't particularly see much to object to considering the costs of maintaining the status quo. Imagine what society could be like if we freed up all those resources to actually create something substantive.

 

[ollopa]

Food for thought. Not trying to take it to SZ level -- I just found Thunderf00t's take on small arms vs bombs and his data mining to be interesting and relevant to this discussion.

 

[Henning]

Food for thought. Not trying to take it to SZ level -- I just found Thunderf00t's take on small arms vs bombs and his data mining to be interesting and relevant to this discussion.

Not a particularly noteworthy observation, that has been a know fact of military campaigns for hundreds of years, directed bullets have the greatest effect until you get into sophisticated and preferably nuclear explosives.

 

[docmirror]

Yes please and thank you.

Religion has little to nothing to do with it. (

Let me see if I understand your point(s).

A. You don't want others discussing the motives for THIS attack in the thread.

B. You have (mistakenly) determined that this attack is not motivated by faith.

Do I have that distilled well?



Kool aid tasty?

 

[Henning]

Let me see if I understand your point(s).

A. You don't want others discussing the motives for THIS attack in the thread.

B. You have (mistakenly) determined that this attack is not motivated by faith.

Do I have that distilled well?



Kool aid tasty?

It isn't motivated by faith, it is motivated by poverty and oppression. It is supported by faith. If they weren't dirt poor and hungry, there wouldn't be a problem.

 

[docmirror]

Okay I know this goes against Mari's wishes and I apologize for that. But I must echo a friend here:

"I'm so tired of seeing people who are uneducated on the issue shame Muslims in a public forum.

If a corrupt terrorist organization yelled "praise Jesus" before an attack, people wouldn't be shaming the entire Christian world for the attack and asking them to assume responsibility. Christians would say they obviously were not connected to the actual Christian community and condemn their actions.

These people don't represent what Islam is about. The Iraqi president, Sheikh of Kuwait, Qatar's foreign minister, and many others have already made statements condemning the attacks. Muslims practice peace, just like Christians, Jews, Catholics, Buddhists, Taoists, etc.

Shame terrorists. Shame terrorists who falsely represent Islam. Don't shame true Muslims who have nothing to do with terror groups."

Oh, I missed your follow-up that is keeping religion out of this thread. But - I get it. You are ok with defending ONE particular religion. Coincedentally the one that is responsible for this attack directly, and either directly or indirectly responsible for most of the terror around the planet.

Lot of 'false representing' one religion out there. Almost - what you one say? Like it was a TRUE representation and not an apostasy.
Good to know. Another member for my ignore list! Thanks.

 

[Henning]

Oh, I missed your follow-up that is keeping religion out of this thread. But - I get it. You are ok with defending ONE particular religion. Coincedentally the one that is responsible for this attack directly, and either directly or indirectly responsible for most of the terror around the planet.

Lot of 'false representing' one religion out there. Almost - what you one say? Like it was a TRUE representation and not an apostasy.
Good to know. Another member for my ignore list! Thanks.

I guess I'm ok because I blame all religion. God regrets inspiring religion, it was a short cut that didn't pan out.

 

[Phoenix]

How would ample food affect the Korans directive to kill all infidels and their desire to be ruled by sharia law no matter the laws of their host country? Maybe different people need different countries. And maybe countries look different because of the specific people that live there. Or it is all white man's oppression making Mexico look like Mexico and Texas looking slightly better?

 

[Phoenix]

It isn't motivated by faith, it is motivated by poverty and oppression. It is supported by faith. If they weren't dirt poor and hungry, there wouldn't be a problem.

Muslims on the dole in France ain't hungry

 

[Henning]

How would ample food affect the Korans directive to kill all infidels and their desire to be ruled by sharia law no matter the laws of their host country? Maybe different people need different countries. And maybe countries look different because of the specific people that live there. Or it is all white man's oppression making Mexico look like Mexico and Texas looking slightly better?

People certainly need different countries, and the cheapest, easiest, and most effective way of doing it is making sure they have plenty of food and water at home, and their life isn't a hellhole of violence. We create hellholes of violence with our War on Drugs which fuels illegal immigration into America. We create hellholes of violence in our need to support our fiat currency with petrodollars, which fuels Islam's rage. They would all stay home and trade peacefully directly for food and water whatever it is we want from their culture. China, boom, challenges from China cease the minute their population is fed. Most people want trade relations where everyone prospers, unfortunately trade relations are controlled by people who want to take greatest advantage of others to prosper themselves individually.

 

[jimson]

People certainly need different countries, and the cheapest, easiest, and most effective way of doing it is making sure they have plenty of food and water at home, and their life isn't a hellhole of violence. We create hellholes of violence with our War on Drugs which fuels illegal immigration into America. We create hellholes of violence in our need to support our fiat currency with petrodollars, which fuels Islam's rage. They would all stay home and trade peacefully directly for food and water whatever it is we want from their culture. China, boom, challenges from China cease the minute their population is fed. Most people want trade relations where everyone prospers, unfortunately trade relations are controlled by people who want to take greatest advantage of others to prosper themselves individually.

So, is there any problem in the world America is not responsible for?

 

[Velocity173]

Muslims on the dole in France ain't hungry

Exactly. This isn't like conflicts in Africa born of hunger. These people are well feed and for now, well financed. Also, world hunger has been on the decline for sometime despite the rising food prices. Nothing in ISIS's ideology states they are fighting due to hunger.

It's about a group whose hierarchy has a warped view of Islam that obviously world Muslim leaders don't share. Then, they go any recruit those who have nothing to lose and use them to do their dirty work. Same tactic the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan used against us.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Another member for my ignore list! Thanks.

"Another" member? How many are there?

I wonder who the real problem is then?

 

[Henning]

So, is there any problem in the world America is not responsible for?

We are the biggest muscle the Roman Empire has left, and we are the great gladiator society that should have been left behind 2000 years ago, but survived by usurping Christianity.

The sad thing is, Americans don't even understand their own history. America isn't really responsible, it's not like we really had much choice. The founders knew what needed to be done, they just didn't have the technology available to allow them to create a workable plan that allowed for future economic expansion. When the Industrial Revolution hit, constitutional economics could no longer keep up with the capitalization requirements heavy industrialization required. Allowable sources of capital was the real basis of the Civil War, and after it was over, Morgan Bank, a Rothschild Group bank capitalized by the very aristocracy the revolution fought to escape, began the mass capitalization of the antebellum Industrial Age ringing in the beginnings of the Guilded age and the destruction of the entire US economy not once, but twice, by J.D. Rockefeller to maintain tyrannical powers and amass the greatest personal fortune to that date. This is all stuff the founders were trying to avoid, but they just didn't have a plan for something of that scale of growth. Even the big gold and mineral rushes in the period prior to the Civil War were not sufficient to provide the quantities to keep up with the currency growth needs of the industrial revolution.

Now that the industrial revolution has come full circle and displaced all the industrial workers, as it had the agricultural workers (slaves) in the beginning. We could now use the discarded facilities of the industrial revolution to house a new urban agrarian revolution that creates not only a social safety net, but a constructive social purpose that can beneficially integrate all members of society at all levels of capability. A few hours farming a week in a greenhouse is good for the soul anyway, people should have more connection to their food than the grocery store.

The problem is the wealthiest nation in the world is also the most apathetic.

 

[Henning]

Exactly. This isn't like conflicts in Africa born of hunger. These people are well feed and for now, well financed. Also, world hunger has been on the decline for sometime despite the rising food prices. Nothing in ISIS's ideology states they are fighting due to hunger.

It's about a group whose hierarchy has a warped view of Islam that obviously world Muslim leaders don't share. Then, they go any recruit those who have nothing to lose and use them to do their dirty work. Same tactic the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan used against us.

Most of the immigrants coming to Europe right now are coming from Africa, not the Middle East. Yes, they are fed in France, they are in France because they are starving at home and nobody cares as they brutally slaughter one another for control over food. However they are not the ones who cause the problems, the problems are caused by those who want to overthrow the financial regime of the west. These are the militant minority of those refugees who take advantage of the confusion and lax security potential that refugee crowds allow. This is them playing a 'divide and conquer' strategy as well.

 

[JoseCuervo]

People who can't assimilate in a normal society.

Could you expand upon your qualifications and credentials to make a diagnosis as such?

 

[overdrive148]

We could now use the discarded facilities of the industrial revolution to house a new urban agrarian revolution that creates not only a social safety net, but a constructive social purpose that can beneficially integrate all members of society at all levels of capability. A few hours farming a week in a greenhouse is good for the soul anyway, people should have more connection to their food than the grocery store.

So what you're saying is put down the guns and lower the defenses and just grow food and the terrorists will have to stop attacking us?

Aren't the extremists killing anyone (including innocents and farmers and etc) who disagrees with them or doesn't fall in line with their religion?

 

[PaulS]

So back the subject, sitting in a venue, enjoying the music and a couple of morons come in with machine guns and start shooting everyone. Concealed carry may be the best option. If even 100 of the patrons were carrying I'm thinking that this incident would have been very short lived. Short of that, I still think a mob fight back mentality might work best. Think about it, if this happens, it's only cold blooded murder, if you are near enough to mob one of these guys the chances are very good you die even if you don't act. I think I would rather die trying to take out one of these guys rather than cowering and getting a bullet in the back. Even if my attack results in my death, but distracts the guy enough so that another can get him, I think I'd be ok with that.

The bomb vest is a bummer, but once again, if you are close enough to do something, you will probably die, might as well try to live by taking the savage out.

 

[Sundancer]

Other cultures blew thier chance - paraphrasing an Egyptian diplomat, most of the countries in the middle east aren't countries - they're tribes with flags. If you woke up this morning as an American, you entered a competetion where you have an advantage, based on your team having the rule of law, a dominant culture, language, economic model, and effective military. There is nothing in our system that anyone else couldn't have had. They made other choices, embraced other visions. We've done more in 200 years than other empires did in 2,000. That's not an accident.

We beat colonialism, imperialism, facism, and communism. No one of intellectual honesty can make a rational argument that humanity isn't far, far better off for our existence.

If Islam is perverted to entice the ignorant (or psychologically scared) to lash out against western civilization, so be it. We can soak up a lot more casualties than occurred yesterday. To turn some liberal comments around a bit, the terrorist can't kill their way to success, either.

It takes zero talent, and not really all that much "real planning" to eff things up - any idiot, any jealous loser, any angry, self righteous dolt can fire a weapon or trigger an explosive. It takes talent, vision, work, and sacrifice to craft something of value and permanence.

 

[Henning]

Could you expand upon your qualifications and credentials to make a diagnosis as such?

Which diagnosis, the assimilation one or what qualifies as normal society? It is quite easy to argue that we are in an abhorrent social time stream, leading lives that were never meant to exist, created by the force of free will thousands of years ago, that we follow today. The reason suicide and depression rates are so high is because we make our lives meaningless and destructive, and people aren't meant to cope with that, they are meant to change that, but our society provides no other option really, and a growing number, especially among veterans, is seeing suicide as a better alternative. You can't say that's not a ****ed up way to run a society, and it is definitely engineered to extract the maximum profits while running the edge of social collapse.

The observation of the inability of these people to assimilate to what is normal as dictated by the status quo however, is a valid one, and these killings are manifest of the rage some people develop with the status quo regardless the cause of personal strife and discontent.

 

[James331]

So what you're saying is put down the guns and lower the defenses and just grow food and the terrorists will have to stop attacking us?

Aren't the extremists killing anyone (including innocents and farmers and etc) who disagrees with them or doesn't fall in line with their religion?

Lol, the religion is only a tool the leaders use for marketing their desires, is highly wager they bend the Koran to fit their goals, just as everyone has been doing since the start of "God"

Best bet is both, preserve the citizens right to bear arms, don't let every asshat with a sob story into your country AND stop meddling in the business and killing folks of other countries.

Now this isn't as profitable as waging wars, so I ain't holding my breath.

 

[Velocity173]

So back the subject, sitting in a venue, enjoying the music and a couple of morons come in with machine guns and start shooting everyone. Concealed carry may be the best option. If even 100 of the patrons were carrying I'm thinking that this incident would have been very short lived. Short of that, I still think a mob fight back mentality might work best. Think about it, if this happens, it's only cold blooded murder, if you are near enough to mob one of these guys the chances are very good you die even if you don't act. I think I would rather die trying to take out one of these guys rather than cowering and getting a bullet in the back. Even if my attack results in my death, but distracts the guy enough so that another can get him, I think I'd be ok with that.

The bomb vest is a bummer, but once again, if you are close enough to do something, you will probably die, might as well try to live by taking the savage out.

I agree. I don't feel the need to go conceal carry on my 9 MM right now though. While these mass shooting events seem to be on the rise, US and world violence are both on the decline. Odds of me needing my 9 for self defense to "save the day" would be slim. In that event, I'll find other means to subdue the aggressor.

 

[Henning]

So what you're saying is put down the guns and lower the defenses and just grow food and the terrorists will have to stop attacking us?

Aren't the extremists killing anyone (including innocents and farmers and etc) who disagrees with them or doesn't fall in line with their religion?

Nope, I'm saying keep doing what we're doing, take all the out of work and homeless and provide them a place and opportunity to grow food to put to work supplementing markets where hunger is present and using that co-op trade market to develop a new energy market that allows for the 'open source' production of a commodity based currency with unlimited and for all intents and purposes, unrestricted ability to grow with economic demand. This allows Americans to have a choice in a currency that is supported by the original constitution as well as framer intents over one that comes at the price of Income Tax and required an Ammendment to the Constitution to allow. Using food in fair trade creates a Qu'ranic mandate to live in peace alongside. They have no justification anymore to change our society, OTOH, we gain leverage to influence theirs if we aren't asking them to break their rules.

I'm saying create a competing parallel resource trade network that doesn't rely on a usury based currency that as it expands makes the current system irrelevant by choice as even the wealthy will realize they are better off as well. All it take is to 'be kind and take care of each other' and to have a little faith. Faith is what we do not have.

 

[Norman]

So back the subject, sitting in a venue, enjoying the music and a couple of morons come in with machine guns and start shooting everyone. Concealed carry may be the best option. If even 100 of the patrons were carrying I'm thinking that this incident would have been very short lived. Short of that, I still think a mob fight back mentality might work best. Think about it, if this happens, it's only cold blooded murder, if you are near enough to mob one of these guys the chances are very good you die even if you don't act. I think I would rather die trying to take out one of these guys rather than cowering and getting a bullet in the back. Even if my attack results in my death, but distracts the guy enough so that another can get him, I think I'd be ok with that.

The bomb vest is a bummer, but once again, if you are close enough to do something, you will probably die, might as well try to live by taking the savage out.

Do you immediately know if that's for real or part of the act? Stranger things have happened at rock concerts. Even if you're carrying, your first reaction is going to be shock and disbelief.

So that brings up the question; do you shoot and possibly kill someone by mistake or do you duck and attempt to size up the situation? Time's-a-wastin'. What do you do? Do you have training to handle the situation? Difficult to answer till you're faced with it.

 

[Henning]

Do you immediately know if that's for real or part of the act? Stranger things have happened at rock concerts. Even if you're carrying, your first reaction is going to be shock and disbelief.

So that brings up the question; do you shoot and possibly kill someone by mistake or do you duck and attempt to size up the situation? Time's-a-wastin'. What do you do? Do you have training to handle the situation? Difficult to answer till you're faced with it.

That's really the biggest problem with these scenarios, they are just impossible to train for except in a rudimentary fashion, and even then, you will not be prepared for the circumstances. If you live your life in such a way that you are always making yourself threat aware, it's hard to enjoy a show.

 

[PaulS]

Do you immediately know if that's for real or part of athe act? Stranger things have happened at rock concerts. Even if you're carrying, your first reaction is going to be shock and disbelief.

So that brings up the question; do you shoot and possibly kill someone by mistake or do you duck and attempt to size up the situation? Time's-a-wastin'. What do you do? Do you have training to handle the situation? Difficult to answer till you're faced with it.

Good point, I don't know. I think no matter what, there will be that shock period and disbelief, but eventually something happens. If you have a gun, I would hope you've taken the time to learn how to use it and when to shoot and when not to shoot.

As far as having something like this as part of an act, that would be pretty stupid. It makes me think of the killer clown ambush videos where they scare the crap out of people. Sooner or later one of the jokesters will end up shot.

 

[Velocity173]

Could you expand upon your qualifications and credentials to make a diagnosis as such?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

Ok, "poor ability to function in ordinary life." Does that do it for you?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Even if you're carrying, your first reaction is going to be shock and disbelief.

Very true.

Case in point is the Chattanooga attack. You had at least two service members in that reserve center who were in fact armed with personal weapons and discharged them but still were unable to stop the perp.

I am absolutely no advocate of gun control, but arming the populace isn't necessarily the answer. It is definitely not a cure all.

 

[Henning]

Very true.

Case in point is the Chattanooga attack. You had at least two service members in that reserve center who were in fact armed with personal weapons and discharged them but still were unable to stop the perp.

I am absolutely no advocate of gun control, but arming the populace isn't necessarily the answer. It is definitely not a cure all.

There is no cure that comes from violence, only more problems.

 

[Norman]

Very true.

Case in point is the Chattanooga attack. You had at least two service members in that reserve center who were in fact armed with personal weapons and discharged them but still were unable to stop the perp.

I am absolutely no advocate of gun control, but arming the populace isn't necessarily the answer. It is definitely not a cure all.

I carry daily, but have not yet been put to that test.

 

[Norman]

There is no cure that comes from violence, only more problems.

I disagree, Ghost Rider. There are times when only violence will stop violence. There are times when you have to meet them on their terms.

 

[docmirror]

Do you immediately know if that's for real or part of the act? Stranger things have happened at rock concerts. Even if you're carrying, your first reaction is going to be shock and disbelief.

Huh?
Do you have a CC permit? Have you ever carried a gun? Do you which end of the gun is the dangerous end?

If someone pulls out any kind of gun in a venue like that, unless he/she shouts "Gendarmere!" and shows a badge, they are a target of opportunity, and I'm putting them down. Immediately.

I'm not fooling around anymore. I don't care about color, race, creed, religion, gender, or any kind of intent, they can tell it to allah when they meet.

 

[Henning]

I disagree, Ghost Rider. There are times when only violence will stop violence. There are times when you have to meet them on their terms.

Yep, but still nothing is solved. If there is one madman, there will be more. Of the 20% who are madmen by nature, there is nothing really to be done besides confine or kill them if they are a threat. However that leaves the 80% of madmen who are that way as a result of nurture, and there we need to improve ourselves. The amount of drug use use in our society, both legal and illicit, compounded by the fact there are twice as many suicides with guns as murders, and a bunch more without guns has to make and you stop and think, "Can we do this a better way that doesn't incite these results?", and the answer is "yes", however we choose not to because, "**** them".

 

[Fearless Tower]

Huh?
Do you have a CC permit? Have you ever carried a gun? Do you which end of the gun is the dangerous end?

If someone pulls out any kind of gun in a venue like that, unless he/she shouts "Gendarmere!" and shows a badge, they are a target of opportunity, and I'm putting them down. Immediately.

I'm not fooling around anymore. I don't care about color, race, creed, religion, gender, or any kind of intent, they can tell it to allah when they meet.

 

[oilburner]

A couple of Muslim extremists tried to pull off a similar massacre at a Garland Texas anti-Islam event a few months ago. They didn't get past the sidewalk before armed security put them down. Must be prepared to provide public security these days or allow the public their own security just about anywhere it seems.

 

[Norman]

Huh?
Do you have a CC permit? Have you ever carried a gun? Do you which end of the gun is the dangerous end?

If someone pulls out any kind of gun in a venue like that, unless he/she shouts "Gendarmere!" and shows a badge, they are a target of opportunity, and I'm putting them down. Immediately.

I'm not fooling around anymore. I don't care about color, race, creed, religion, gender, or any kind of intent, they can tell it to allah when they meet.

Did you read post #114? Thanks for the insult.