Paperwork

sidneyfw

sidneyfw

Pre-Flight
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Richland WA
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sidney
I've got some questions regarding paperwork? I'm new here so some of you are going think thease are stupid questions!
Required paperwork on board your aircraft? 1) Airworthiness Cert, 2) registration, 3) weight and balance sheet. Is this all?
Also when buying an aircraft, you may do a title search, also have a mechanic do a pre-buy inspection. Is there seperate log books for the aircraft and the engine? And how do you find out if all service bulletin's have been complied with, also that all ad's have been preformed? I've been all over the FAA web site trying to find information on ad's for a specific aircraft. I assume that ultimately the owner is responsible for this, and not the mechanic who certifies that plane is airworthy? Thank You Sidney FW
 
owners manual or operating limitations, is the only one you're forgetting :wink2:

Two separate log books for both aircraft and engine.
It's up to the owner or operators responsibility to ensure compliance.
AD's are regulatory and compliance is mandatory.
This website will give you all AD's and the AD Biweekly: http://rgl.faa.gov.
 
Last edited:
AROW is required
Airworthiness cert
Registration
Operating limitations
Weight and balane

Any AD compliance should be in the logbooks. our club has Aircraft logbook and engine logbooks for each aircraft.

PIC decides if the plane is airworthy before every flight :)
 
The "O" also includes placards. For example, the 172N must have a legible placard by the fuel filler stating:"FUEL 100/130 min. grade aviation gasoline Cap. 21.5 US. gal."
Service Bulletins are not mandatory even if the manufacturer calls them mandatory. The exception is an AD requiring compliance, but I guess we could say that is an AD.
 
AROW (even ARROW when it mattered) is a stupid assed mnemonic that has to be bent nine ways to Sunday to get it to work. There's no specific rule for O and W. Every aircraft needs the airworthiness certificate and registration to be on board. To find out what else you really need to know the aircraft specifically. There are required placards, perhaps some sort of flight manual, supplements to the flight manual (whether you have one or not), etc...
You won't find a rule for weight and balance anywhere. It's almost always either listed on the type certificate, or it is part of the approved (and required) flight manual.

My plane requires a half dozen placards (air speeds, emergency gear extension, do not leave the aircraft while the engine is running, canopy open to this point only during flight,...), the "operating limitations book" (mostly fuel capacities but it does have the W&B envelope in it), the "equipment list" (essentially your empty weight for w&b, though it doesn't explicitly say that), flight manual supplements for: angle of incidence change, tip tanks, IFR GPS, autopilot..., the pilot guides for the IFR GPS and the Autopilot, ...

I've got a nice binder I put together with all that stuff for when I did my instrument ride. It's sat in behind the rear seat ever since.
 
Blackhawk said:
The "O" also includes placards. For example, the 172N must have a legible placard by the fuel filler stating:"FUEL 100/130 min. grade aviation gasoline Cap. 21.5 US. gal."
Service Bulletins are not mandatory even if the manufacturer calls them mandatory. The exception is an AD requiring compliance, but I guess we could say that is an AD.
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Well, not exactly.

The AFM contains the operating limitations. Some of these limitations are specifications of the placards. Read ch. 2 of yours.

If the aircraft is older than 1978, an AFM was not required, and the placards can substitute per 14 CFR 91.9(b)(2).
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, not exactly.

The AFM contains the operating limitations. Some of these limitations are specifications of the placards. Read ch. 2 of yours.

If the aircraft is older than 1978, an AFM was not required, and the placards can substitute per 14 CFR 91.9(b)(2).
Click to expand...

Pre 1978 aircraft have an "Airplane Flight Manual" (AFM) that is most assuredly required to be carried onboard.

Piper-PA-28-180-AFM-1969-500x500.jpg
 
Bill Jennings said:
I was taught ARROW, as the second R is for FCC radio registration if operating the aircraft outside of the United States. Is that still required?
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Nope, no more radio station license requirement for operation in the US, although you can get one issued if you like for foreign operations, not that anyone ever checks. Some countries will make you buy theirs anyway for use in their country.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, not exactly.

The AFM contains the operating limitations. Some of these limitations are specifications of the placards. Read ch. 2 of yours.

If the aircraft is older than 1978, an AFM was not required, and the placards can substitute per 14 CFR 91.9(b)(2).
Click to expand...

Yeah, exactly. The "O" that pilots use comes from FAR 91.9:

"(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft—

(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by §21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in §121.141(b); and

(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by §21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

(c) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft unless that aircraft is identified in accordance with part 45 of this chapter.
..."
The placards may, or may not be in chapter two. They may be listed in TCDS, they may be part of an AD such as the Cessna 150/152 placard on spins if the rudder stops are not modified.
 
kgruber said:
Pre 1978 aircraft have an "Airplane Flight Manual" (AFM) that is most assuredly required to be carried onboard.

Piper-PA-28-180-AFM-1969-500x500.jpg
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Bullhocky. My Navion does not have a "Airplane Flight Manual." It has an owner's manual which is not a required document and the "Operating Limitations" book which is.
 
sidneyfw said:
Operating limitations, is this the POH?
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The full answer is "Operating limitations, in the form of any required placards, instrument markings, and/or flight manuals". Your AFM may be the POH, but that alone isn't enough. Many planes built before 1979 may not even have an Approved Flight Manual, just an unapproved "owner's manual" which is not required to be in the plane. As for the placards and markings, you can find them in Section 2 Limitations of your AFM (if your plane has one) or the Type Certificate Data Sheet if you don't.
 
kgruber said:
Pre 1978 aircraft have an "Airplane Flight Manual" (AFM) that is most assuredly required to be carried onboard.
Click to expand...
Change that to some pre-78 aircraft (mainly Pipers and Beechcraft), and I'll buy it. Cessnas and Grummans did not until it was mandated in 1978. But for those that have one like you posted, it (or a copy of it) must be in the plane for the aircraft to be legal for flight.

Also, the placards/markings don't "substitute" for an AFM. Any required placards/markings have to be there whether the aircraft has an AFM or not. In that regard, the AFM only provides a convenient means of checking which placards/markings must be present.
 
Henning said:
Nope, no more radio station license requirement for operation in the US, although you can get one issued if you like for foreign operations, not that anyone ever checks. Some countries will make you buy theirs anyway for use in their country.
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Not sure where Henning's been, but a) they do check in the Turks & Caicos (BTDT), and b) by international convention your US FCC operator and station certificates are all you need in your N-reg aircraft in any ICAO signatory nation in the world to meet the radio licensing requirement. However, neither Canada nor the Bahamas require or check for radio licenses, so don't worry about it if you're only going that far in a private aircraft.
 
BTW, the "weight and balance sheet" essentially means something with the licensed empty weight/cg, and an attesting signature (copies are OK). There is no legal requirement for regular Part 91 operators to run a W&B for the actual load on every flight and have that in the aircraft. However, if you get ramp checked with what appears to the Inspector to be a possibly out-of-limits W&B condition, you may be required to show that you were within limits, and that's hard to do if you don't have all the information necessary to run a W&B computation with you (e.g., blank W&B computation forms and the envelope for your aircraft, or a good W&B app on your iPad).
 
Ron Levy said:
Not sure where Henning's been, but a) they do check in the Turks & Caicos (BTDT), and b) by international convention your US FCC operator and station certificates are all you need in your N-reg aircraft in any ICAO signatory nation in the world to meet the radio licensing requirement. However, neither Canada nor the Bahamas require or check for radio licenses, so don't worry about it if you're only going that far in a private aircraft.
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Been to the Turks and Caicos twice, wasn't checked either time. You must look shady. :)

Probably helped that I was in a King Air and a Pilatus.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
sidneyfw said:
Also when buying an aircraft, you may do a title search,
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"May do"? Unless you're buying the aircraft new from a dealer, you bloody well better do a title search unless you don't mind having the aircraft later seized by a lienholder and being unable to recover the money you paid for the airplane.

Is there seperate log books for the aircraft and the engine?
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Yes - and there is supposed to be another separate log book for the prop, too, since props and engines can come and go separately.

And how do you find out if all service bulletin's have been complied with, also that all ad's have been preformed?
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The best way is to work with a mechanic who subscribes to one of the commercial AD worksheet companies. S/he can just fire up his/her computer, enter your aircraft, engine, prop, and accessory make/model/serial numbers, and have a full printout of all AD's and SB's on them. This can be checked against the maintenance records to see what has/has not been done. If the mechanics who did the annuals did the same (most do), then the AD/SB worksheets from the last annual provide a good starting point for that check, saving everyone a lot of work.

I assume that ultimately the owner is responsible for this, and not the mechanic who certifies that plane is airworthy?
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You assume correctly. If they find a pilot flying an aircraft that hasn't had all applicable AD's properly documented as "complied with", the pilot is the first domino to fall.
 
The weight and balance is a static document until something that is part of the aircraft is changed -- such as putting in a new radio or removing the wheel pants.

A freshly computed weight and balance for the pilot, passenger, luggage, fuel, etc., is not required for each flight.

The balance tells the arms for each of the areas -- fuel, front seats, next set of seats, luggage, etc.

Or that is the way I understand it. Some one shoot me down if I am wrong.
 
tinerj said:
The weight and balance is a static document until something that is part of the aircraft is changed -- such as putting in a new radio or removing the wheel pants.

A freshly computed weight and balance for the pilot, passenger, luggage, fuel, etc., is not required for each flight.

The balance tells the arms for each of the areas -- fuel, front seats, next set of seats, luggage, etc.

Or that is the way I understand it. Some one shoot me down if I am wrong.
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Close enough. Balance in this context is more about knowing the final cg of the as loaded so you can determine that it is within the aircraft's cg limits, but one must know the arm for each location where something or someone is placed in order to compute the loaded cg.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unless you're buying the aircraft new from a dealer, you bloody well better do a title search unless you don't mind having the aircraft later seized by a lienholder and being unable to recover the money you paid for the airplane.
Click to expand...

I believe title insurance for GA aircraft is far cheaper and much easier than a title search. Sometimes for the older GA aircraft the title search will reveal a lien holder that is a bank that has gone out of business 20 years ago and it is difficult to trace what happened to the lien. In that case title insurance would be the wise thing to do anyway.
 
tinerj said:
I believe title insurance for GA aircraft is far cheaper and much easier than a title search.
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You're not getting title insurance without a title search -- nobody who writes title insurance would be that foolish (or at least, not for very long). Of course, you may get the title search as part of the insurance purchase, but it will be done. For that reason, I can't imagine title insurance costing less than a title search.

Sometimes for the older GA aircraft the title search will reveal a lien holder that is a bank that has gone out of business 20 years ago and it is difficult to trace what happened to the lien. In that case title insurance would be the wise thing to do anyway.
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No question, but you won't find the problem to insure against without the search. Remember that a title search just means going through the records at the FAA registry to see what the ownership chain is and whether there are any liens. Without that, the risks of writing insurance on the title would be prohibitive for the insurer. But the cost of the search itself is the same whether insurance is being written or not, and they are always going to charge something extra above that search cost to cover the risk they are assuming
 
Ron Levy, Thank You very much for taking the time to answer my questions!
And Thank You to the rest of the membership who had input to this thread.
I'm really impressed with the knowledge, and at time's quite entertained with some of the back & forth that go's on here.:rofl::rofl::rofl::yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:
Sincerely SidneyFW
 
Ron Levy said:
The full answer is "Operating limitations, in the form of any required placards, instrument markings, and/or flight manuals". Your AFM may be the POH, but that alone isn't enough. Many planes built before 1979 may not even have an Approved Flight Manual, just an unapproved "owner's manual" which is not required to be in the plane. As for the placards and markings, you can find them in Section 2 Limitations of your AFM (if your plane has one) or the Type Certificate Data Sheet if you don't.
Click to expand...

... as well as applicable AD's and STC's.
As an example last I checked the placard on spins in 152's if the rudder has not been modified is not in the TCDS but is in the AD.
 
Last comment not meant to be a slam on Ron.
 
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