Paperwork snafu = government takes your bird

There has got to be more to the story than that little blurb. I would like know what the "artillery" was that was left on the plane. However, if he did manage to bring the plane in with live 20mm cannon, I can see why the ATF has their knickers in a twist.
 
N2124v said:
I would like know what the "artillery" was that was left on the plane. However, if he did manage to bring the plane in with live 20mm cannon, I can see why the ATF has their knickers in a twist.
Click to expand...
I'm going to guess that it either still had one or more of the 20MM cannons installed or it still had the Yankee Escape System rocket onboard.
 
N2124v said:
There has got to be more to the story than that little blurb. I would like know what the "artillery" was that was left on the plane. However, if he did manage to bring the plane in with live 20mm cannon, I can see why the ATF has their knickers in a twist.
Click to expand...

According to the ATF (as reported on Avweb) four 20 mm cannons were found hidden under aircraft parts in one of the containers. If they had been left in place on the aircraft, or been stowed in plain view, one could claim an innocent mistake in not listing them. But not when one hides them away. Doesn't sound like a paperwork SNAFU to me.

Ron Wanttaja
 
How smart must be to make enough money to buy a Corsair, and still be stupid enough not to know the 20mm wouldn't need a license? or was he hiding the 20MMs or did he even know about them if they were in a different container.
 
wanttaja said:
According to the ATF (as reported on Avweb) four 20 mm cannons were found hidden under aircraft parts in one of the containers. If they had been left in place on the aircraft, or been stowed in plain view, one could claim an innocent mistake in not listing them. But not when one hides them away. Doesn't sound like a paperwork SNAFU to me.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...

The term "hidden" is subjective.
 
perhaps another govt strategy to get warbirds in museums and out of the air
 
One must remember that any government strong enough to provide every thing you need, is strong enough to take every thing you have.
 
Be very, very careful when dealing with the BATFE. I feel badly for these guys if it was an honest mistake or if they are just getting hosed.
 
Judge's opinion in the forfeiture action with facts, etc. attached.

I didn't read the whole thing, but it appears that the Owner did take some shortcuts.
 

Attachments

I like the comment

"The government should mind their own business. Shouldn't they be trying to find some guns they lost in mexico?"

I don't see why possession of unregistered airplane parts not attached to the airplane means the government can just take his airplane. Shame it has to sit in a museum.

When I was at the Mighty Eigth Air Force Museum a few months back, they had a B-17 they recently acquired from the government. Apparently the airplane was very close to flyable condition, however the government would only let them have it if they trucked it down to Savannah, and agreed that it would never fly again. Sucks.

I understand why it might be necessary to ship the guns and airplane separately, and it sounds like he tried to comply.

Below is an excerpt from the opinion. It sounds like he bought the plane, applied for registration and then several weeks later, while the plane was en-route the registration was denied due to "foreign policy objections". He was notified in writing 3 days before the airplane arrived. He probably did not know that registration was denied until after he got the airplane. AND WHY WAS IT DENIED IN THE FIRST PLACE

left France and flew the aircraft to the United
States, a trip that took several days, from August 13 to 21, 2008.
Meanwhile, on August 18, 2008, the Office of Regional Security
and Arms Transfers, Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, U.S.
Department of State, responded by letter to Hendrickson’s request,
denying authorization to import the aircraft based on foreign
policy objections.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
wtf does atf need an old airplane for?
Fine the guy, give him a sentencing for the crime - but taking possession of his belongings is a governing body overstepping reasonable bounds.
 
I know its popular to vilify the government, but it's easy to spin it the other way here.

The guy knew he needed a permit to bring the aircraft into the U.S. but elected to bring it in without a permit, and the ferry pilot misrepresented the status of the aircraft at the border:

Cabanas told Agent Tordy that the aircraft was going to Alabama to fly in air shows and that the aircraft was owned as of that date by Bourret, which was the name still listed as the owner on the aircraft’s registration. Agent Tordy has testified that Cabanas also told him that the
aircraft would remain in the United States for only six to eight months and would be returning to France, but Cabanas denies telling Agent Tordy this.
Click to expand...
The law says illegally imported goods are subject to forfeiture. My guess is they decided to enforce the law against the guy because they thought his violation was willful rather than inadvertent.
 
WTF is someone doing importing a warbird without knowing what they're doing?

If it were me spending $$$ on a purchase of that type, I'd hire an expert to import it, and if/when they screwed up, I'd be able to sue THEM and get my money back.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
wtf does atf need an old airplane for?
Fine the guy, give him a sentencing for the crime - but taking possession of his belongings is a governing body overstepping reasonable bounds.
Click to expand...

The ATF could honestly care less about the airplane. They only care that the guns were smuggled into the country.

The airplane itself is essentially being reclaimed by the DoN and the National Naval Aviation Museum in P-cola becomes the beneficiary.

FWIW, the USN has a very long established history of wanting their airplanes back.
 
TMetzinger said:
WTF is someone doing importing a warbird without knowing what they're doing?
Click to expand...
More money than brains....a common afliction.

If it were me spending $$$ on a purchase of that type, I'd hire an expert to import it, and if/when they screwed up, I'd be able to sue THEM and get my money back.
Click to expand...
Tim, you clearly have more brains than money.
 
TedR3 said:
The law says illegally imported goods are subject to forfeiture. My guess is they decided to enforce the law against the guy because they thought his violation was willful rather than inadvertent.
Click to expand...
Exactly, and the NNAM as usual is at the head of the line when it comes to repossessing former USN aircraft.
 
The ATF could honestly care less about the airplane. They only care that the guns were smuggled into the country. =
Click to expand...

If that were true they would have confiscated the guns.
They took the plane.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
If that were true they would have confiscated the guns.
They took the plane.
Click to expand...
Read the article again....the airplane is on its way to NNAM, not some ATF impound lot. The ATF made the bust. In the process of the bust for illegal weapons, they identify that the airplane itself was improperly brought into the country. DoJ then hands the airplane over to the DoN for disposition and NNAM scores another free airplane.
 
TMetzinger said:
WTF is someone doing importing a warbird without knowing what they're doing?

If it were me spending $$$ on a purchase of that type, I'd hire an expert to import it, and if/when they screwed up, I'd be able to sue THEM and get my money back.
Click to expand...

TedR3 said:
I know its popular to vilify the government, but it's easy to spin it the other way here.

The guy knew he needed a permit to bring the aircraft into the U.S. but elected to bring it in without a permit, and the ferry pilot misrepresented the status of the aircraft at the border:

The law says illegally imported goods are subject to forfeiture. My guess is they decided to enforce the law against the guy because they thought his violation was willful rather than inadvertent.
Click to expand...

Yeah both are pretty much on target. It sucks that the plane won't fly again it really is, but I can't see this guy not knowing the law. IMHO he knew it and tried to do an end run around it.

I had a client that was with a gov't contractor that imported several A4s into the country from Israel. It took a while and they probably cooled their heels in Tel Aviv for about a month before all the Ts got crossed and the "i"s got dotted and they eventually got them in properly.

What I also find irksome is why the State Department denied the application in the first place.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
wtf does atf need an old airplane for?
Fine the guy, give him a sentencing for the crime - but taking possession of his belongings is a governing body overstepping reasonable bounds.
Click to expand...

they grab your illegal gun and you'll never get it back. Why is this different? Other than the guns were in a different crate and not attached to the aircraft. they should have grabbed the crate/guns not the aircraft.
 
Tom, what part of IT'S ILLEGAL TO BRING IN A MILITARY AIRPLANE WITHOUT GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL is so hard to understand?

Both the airplane and the cannon are "munitions" under the law.
 
Regardless of the law, I feel so much safer now. I've been worried sick that there was a war bird pilot on the loose.

I figure this guy probably had about all he could take of the red tape, didn't suffer fools very well and just brought the damn thing home. Tough luck for him, law or not, it tees me off.
 
dell30rb said:
When I was at the Mighty Eigth Air Force Museum a few months back, they had a B-17 they recently acquired from the government. Apparently the airplane was very close to flyable condition, however the government would only let them have it if they trucked it down to Savannah, and agreed that it would never fly again. Sucks.
Click to expand...


Swap data plates. Fly the plane away. Everybody wins!



:D

I think the wrong data plate was on the plane from the beginning anyway.
 
Tom-D said:
they grab your illegal gun and you'll never get it back. Why is this different? Other than the guns were in a different crate and not attached to the aircraft. they should have grabbed the crate/guns not the aircraft.
Click to expand...
Problem is the ATF is part of the DoJ and the DoJ and DoN have a long-standing relationship of going after former BuNos.

This may be speculation on my part, but I'd bet money that when the ATF agents showed up and reported that there was an old Navy airplane in the hangar, some phone calls were made from DoJ to DoN and the plane was quickly confiscated as well. I'm betting they found that the airplane was not imported properly AFTER they confiscated it.
 
The US government should be honoring this man for his efforts to preserve this artifact of military history, and assisting him in repatriating & restoring this beautiful and important example of our aviation heritage.

Instead, they have stolen it from him like common burglars.

You can point to regulations that make this airplane's return somehow illegal, but those rules must be wrong, or somehow too inflexible. I am of the opinion that not all regulations out there are in our best interest.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The US government should be honoring this man for his efforts to preserve this artifact of military history, and assisting him in repatriating & restoring this beautiful and important example of our aviation heritage.

Instead, they have stolen it from him like common burglars.

You can point to regulations that make this airplane's return somehow illegal, but those rules must be wrong, or somehow too inflexible. I am of the opinion that not all regulations out there are in our best interest.
Click to expand...
I'm not disagreeing with you Dave, but it is worth pointing out the risk one takes when purchasing an ex-USN warbird. If the paperwork is not absolutely perfect.....the Navy will be very quick to take it back....and they have a ton of court case precedence to back them up.

Depending on the circumstances of how the ATF even found out about this guy, it is very possible that if the airplane were an ex-USAF Spad, that they would not have bothered to confiscate it.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Depending on the circumstances of how the ATF even found out about this guy, it is very possible that if the airplane were an ex-USAF Spad, that they would not have bothered to confiscate it.
Click to expand...

hence the burglar comments...
 
TMetzinger said:
Tom, what part of IT'S ILLEGAL TO BRING IN A MILITARY AIRPLANE WITHOUT GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL is so hard to understand?

Both the airplane and the cannon are "munitions" under the law.
Click to expand...

It's not difficult to understand at all, he must have known what he bought, and the ramifications of it.

would you like any one to be able to import automatic 20MM weapons with out license/


My point is quite simple, IMHO the government grabbed the wrong asset. the box that the 20MMs were in is what the feds should have grabbed.

The aircraft is just an aircraft, with out the munitions. other wise we wouldn't be able to import any military aircraft with out a federal fire arms permit.

If the 20MMs were mounted and operable, you'd have a point.
 
Last edited:
Having been involved in the recent import of some military vehicles (tanks) I can say that they require a pretty detailed description of not only the vehicle but any accessories and parts included with the import. Its best to have a customs broker even if you know what you're doing and especially if you don't. The plane and all the parts are required to have import forms approved prior to the parts hitting the beach here in the US so no papers-no import. I deal with the ATFE and guns all the time, its my living. I can understand them confiscating the 20mm guns as they can't be legally imported by an individual. The plane being taken is sad but inevitable as the paperwork wasn't done, or at least wasn't approved so its gone as far as the owner is concerned. Sad but true.....lost another one to the gumbies.

Frank
 
I'm so glad the government protected me at my expense from this dangerous aircraft import with (gasp) missing paperwork.

OMFG! No paperwork! Stop him noooooooow!!! He didn't follow the Almighty Process.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm so glad the government protected me at my expense from this dangerous aircraft import with (gasp) missing paperwork.

OMFG! No paperwork! Stop him noooooooow!!! He didn't follow the Almighty Process.
Click to expand...


OOOH! I've got an idea! The next time a developer or DBA doesn't follow the CMMI processes, let's seize their code AND their house!
 
With the impending collapse that Jay referenced, the gov't is worried we will "re-commission" these flying museum pieces, re-arm, re-fuel, and actually fight back.

They should be worried. :D
 
denverpilot said:
I'm so glad the government protected me at my expense from this dangerous aircraft import with (gasp) missing paperwork.

OMFG! No paperwork! Stop him noooooooow!!! He didn't follow the Almighty Process.
Click to expand...

It's not about paperwork. It's about the fees. If you pay the fees, you're qualified for anything. (The dmv this summer listed ability to pay the fee five separate times for getting a DL and a small side note about a written and practical test) I bet you could import a fully functional nuke armed ICBM for private use if you could pay the fees to the proper organizations.
 
Anthony said:
With the impending collapse that Jay referenced, the gov't is worried we will "re-commission" these flying museum pieces, re-arm, re-fuel, and actually fight back.

They should be worried. :D
Click to expand...

They should be worried if they think that's how the next Civil conflict here will happen.
 
I recently had to title a 20 year old aluminum 14 foot Jon boat. Because apparently that needs a title due to a new rule. I could not read the hull number well and told the dept of wildlife. Lady told me just to guess. Sent them $60 and got a piece of paper and a sticker. Disgusting
 
Around here with our somewhat (?!) controversial law called TABOR, all tax increases must be voted on. (The law is named for the famous Silver Barron who's story is as immoral a story as you'll find anywhere, and his second wife "Baby Doe"... ironic since the guy who pushed the law into existence is also headed for prison...)

The government just started calling the taxes "fees" to get around it.

Nothing changed long term, other than the politicians had to figure out how to get their low riders over the speed bump. ;)
 
Buy a used car. Get busted yr later @ the border for the kilo of cocaine(you had no knowledge of) hidden the gas tank. Even IF you get off, the car is gone. How is this different? Losing a major asset incidental to a violation is commonplace. This is just a more expensive vehicle. Nothing new, move along. Dave
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top