Paging glider pilots with ASEL

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Salty, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    So, I joined a glider club today and took my first hour of instruction.

    Looking for tips for the transition. My instructor is glider only so he may not have the insights a private pilot would.

    One thing is confusing me already though. When thermalling, we were cross controlled not coordinated. The string was significantly on the side towards the turn with lots of rudder and opposite aileron to prevent over banking. I thought the string was supposed to be centered. How do you know how much rudder to use (he was using nearly full rudder)? It was a very small thermal so we were making a very steep turn. I’ll ask him this question next time, we didn’t have time for a debrief after the flight.
     
  2. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    "Step on the knot". Not sure why your CFI didn't keep the yaw string straight. Better glider pilots than I will have deeper insight.

    I was always impressed at the amount of opposite aileron was required to counter overbanking when in a steep turn.

    Somewhere out there is a book for transitioning power pilots that was a pretty big help to me. I can't remember the title right now.
     
  3. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    You should be coordinated. Slips or skids ara adding drag that you don’t want when thermalling.
     
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  4. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Step on the knot. Gonna have to remember that.
     
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  5. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I think maybe he either couldn’t see the string i was looking at or had a string of his own that was slightly offset compared to mine.
     
  6. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, that’s helpful, I was getting it backward all the time.
     
  7. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I was taught to think of the speedbrake handle as a throttle of sorts.
    We deployed them early on approach (similar to pulling power), knowing that we could gain range by retracting them (akin to applying power).
    Think of the alternative, not using the speedbrakes on approach. If you come up short, there is no control in the cockpit which is going to help you make the runway in a trainer.
     
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  8. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Keep us posted on the progress, its on my flying bucket list to go and at least do even if i dont go full endorsement.

    One guy pointed out its great for average GA folks, if the fan ever goes quiet you have already flown a plane with no motor... granted not the same thing but i get the guys point...
     
  9. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    Not speedbrakes, they are called spoilers and they are very effective in most sailplanes. Once proficient you’ll wonder why all airplanes aren’t equipped.

    In a high performance sailplane you have to use them early in order to get any sort of useable descent rate unless you have flaps as well.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
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  10. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    I picked up a new student today, add on rating. I don’t think it was you.

    Yes when thermalling or any turn, that yaw string better be pointed at your nose, not your shoulder. If it’s not you will feel me through the rudder pedals tapping the rudder you should be pushing. One of the PTS maneuvers is a cross controlled stall, yes left turn, left rudder to keep the yaw string string and right aileron to fight the over banking. If that yaw string is not centered on your nose, the turn stops or spins, and the maneuver is failed.

    The normal reaction with the yaw string is to push opposite to what is needed. It’s not “step on the ball” it’s step on the end attached to the glider. Or as others have said, “step on the knot”.

    Think of the spoiler control like a throttle, a weak throttle. You have spoilers out and it looks like you are landing short, push them closed, just like pushing the throttle for more power.

    Back to basics, pitch controls airspeed. Power / spoiler controls rate of descent. If you are high on approach and I catch you pushing the nose down to get down, you are a long way from solo. Same if you are low on approach and you start rainsing the nose to stretch the glide. Close that spoiler.

    Welcome to Soaring.
    I’ve flown powered aircraft for 44 yrs, gliders for 20 yrs, instructing in gliders for almost 17 yrs.
     
  11. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Hardest thing for me to learn was to relax. Getting onto downwind means you still have a long time until you land, a luxury you don’t have in an airplane. It took me a while to get used to that.
     
  12. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    Not the same thing indeed.

    This is embarrassing but with 2000+ glider hours logged including plenty of off-airport landings and such, I assumed that the Commercial Pilot power-off landing task would be a piece of cake. Unfortunately I managed to infect my CFI with the same thought.

    Well I failed that portion of my flight test. Twice. Third try was a piece of cake after a bit of practice. ‍♂️‍♂️

    Glider and airplanes are different aircraft as reflected quite accurately in the regs. Yep.


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  13. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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  14. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    I’ve never seen any substantial issues where a glider instructor couldn’t teach a transition pilot adequately because he didn’t have a power rating.

    I have seen it go bad the other way. Many airplane instructors think glider time doesn’t do any good.

    PPL=Power Pilot License? Never heard it referred to as that before.
     
  15. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    My Glider CFI didn’t have any other ratings besides Glider. He had never flown an airplane. So he didn’t teach me that. However on about my third or fourth landing, that very premise popped in my head so I mentioned it to him. He struggled to understand my point however I later asked the owner/DPE about it and he affirmed that was a good way to understand it and that some CFIs doing glider add on ratings with powered pilots do teach that way.
     
  16. Lindberg

    Lindberg Pattern Altitude

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    I deploy the spoilers a smidge on downwind for this, and to know early if they aren't going to work.

    For me, aerotow was the hardest thing to get the hang of. Think of it like flying in formation, and try to do everything the tow plane does. Don't think about trying to keep tension on the rope.
     
  17. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Cleared for Takeoff

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    Folks usually mean "Private Pilot Licence", of course, though the FAA doesn't call it that.
     
  18. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    We'll, OF COURSE he wouldn't have one of those...he gave that up when he got his Commercial certificate before getting his CFI.o_O
     
  19. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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  20. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I was taught the “TLAR” method of landings. Starting on downwind and all the way to touchdown ask yourself, “Am I high or low?”, and make whatever small adjustments are necessary until you can day, “That looks about right.”
     
  21. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Who said “power pilot license”?

    I never indicated anything to say he would be unable to teach me.

    I simply thought there may be things that are different that he doesn’t know are different that would give me a jump start.

    Like thinking of the spoilers as a throttle for example.

    Sheesh.
     
  22. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    As I said earlier, it can't be Private Pilot License that you're referring to, so what's "PPL"?
     
  23. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    I usually try to have the string slightly outside when thermalling. It's the Holinghaus Way.
     
  24. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    It works better if it's outside in the airflow rather than inside. ;)
     
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  25. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    It can be and it was. I could have been more clear, but it seems 99% of the readers understood.
     
  26. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Which illustrates my first post perfectly.
     
  27. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    There. Any more hairs to split? Or something constructive?
     
  28. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Nah...you're not a real Pilot, so why bother? ;)
     
  29. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yes aerotow. After my first few tows, in mid-afternoon Texas, I pleaded with the chief to let me arrive in the morning so I could get the hang of it without being hammered against the canopy/seatbelts/seat.
    It did not take very long to get the hang of it when it was not the usual mod->sev turbulence. Soon after I was able to go on tow at 2:00pm like the rest of the pilots.

    (this was in El Paso, a site which has since lost their airport)
     
  30. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Salty, did they give any estimate on how long it would take to get the rating? There's a club near me and a guy told me it would take a year and a half, seems like a long time to me.
     
  31. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sounds about right for a club. You’ll ground crew, you’ll assemble and disassemble gliders, you’ll move or refuel the towplane, you’ll talk with and listen to the experienced pilots, and you’ll get a flight or three before the next student gets a turn. Then you do it again the next weekend - weather permitting. The club route can take a long time, and you’ll rarely get a more thorough education.
     
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  32. saddletramp

    saddletramp Line Up and Wait

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    This past summer I had a Private Pilot - airplane guy earn his Private Pilot glider add on in two weeks. He had just earned his Private airplane in March, so wasn't a high time pilot. We are a commercial operation so we can give you a lot of one on one & you don't have to perform all the club duties. We have employees for that.

    In case you think I just ran him through, the DPE said he was a very competent applicant. He studied the Glider Pilots Handbook before he arrived which help a lot. We also did a lot of ground time together.

    We hope when students leave our soaring school they are real glider pilots not just a powered pilot with an add-on rating.

    Enjoy you new adventure!
     
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  33. Lindberg

    Lindberg Pattern Altitude

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    The fall/winter can be a good time to get a glider rating. The soaring may suck, but it is actually easier to learn to fly in the absence of great lift. A few flights with an instructor in the spring may then be a good idea to learn to thermal.
     
  34. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    We can get an add-on done in about 6 months or less. It all depends on the “student”. We are a club, weekends only, allow for weather but we fly year round. Some clubs are down for the winter which can extend the time needed. You show up to fly once a month, it will take much longer. Been 10 years since you last flew, add some time. Don’t do your homework and come prepared for the lesson? Add some more time.

    Our instructors only take on the number of students the schedule can handle. Too many students and people get delayed. Student not ready, you’re wasting the Instructor and your time.

    The toughest part of the add-on is the oral exam. Do your homework when the instructor gives a reading assignment. The flying is easy and fun. I have had some Airplane Pilots, rating collectors, that did not do well but eventually did complete. I’ve had others that could not maintain a slip, or no spoiler approach to save their life and could not complete the checkride because of it.

    Some do suggest and I have no issues with the commercial operations that offer an add-on rating in a week. You will learn to safely pilot a glider and pass a checkride. Consider it a ticket to learn the true art of Soaring. In one week, you may not have had the opportunity to learn thermal, ridge, wave, extreme crosswinds.

    I have sent students to those operations to “finish up” and complete the checkride. They have a DPE on staff that we do not have ready access to.
     
  35. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Matt Michael was a glider CFI for 21-22 (?) years before he got an airplane rating on his pilot certificate. I asked him what the hardest part about flying powered aircraft was after being a glider pilot for so long, and he answered: "Holding altitude." It's a completely foreign concept for glider pilots - You're either going up, or you're coming back down!
     
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  36. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    For the add on my impression was a month or two tops.
     
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  37. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The club I was in did shut down for the winter. We had a couple CFIs that also had jobs that took them out of town for a couple weeks at a time. The Blanik was grounded and that stopped training until the 2-33 came on line. When the 2-33 needed maintenance training would stop again. The fix to all that was to go to a commercial operation for a few weekends (about 3 hrs away) and finish up, something I did not do but others did. As long as you are patient, clubs can be a great learning experience. You’ll get to train in seasons and weather conditions that you might miss out on otherwise.
     
  38. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Old dog w/o new tricks
    The accelerated program that I did took three days. Mind you there was little soaring involved. It was geared towards meeting the requirements to get the rating. So lots of aerotows, turns, stalls, landings, and emergency procedures such as rope breaks and signals from the tow plane. The only part I struggled with was tow which seems to be very common. Actually flying and landing the glider after release was a snap.
     
  39. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    The hardest part, flying on tow and landing. The next hardest part, learning to stay aloft, go somewhere more than one thermal away from home, and getting back.
     
  40. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    That’s the part that I really want to experience but haven’t yet. Just hard to find the time.