PA32 down out of PDK

I logged on to ATC LIVE this morning for radio practice and thought it was odd that the feed was down for that airport. Now I understand. Thoughts and prayers.
 
SkyHog said:
Glad to see all those people stop and not a one tried to put out the fire or help...
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There was a guy on the news that did say he ran up to see if he could help. Not really much anyone could have done. What makes me sick is the guy who got out of his car and walked up to it to take a picture. At least it wasn't a selfie.
 
The local news approached for me for an interview because I was a Saratoga pilot. This was shortly before I departed for Florida.

"No thank you." I'm not going to answer their loaded questions on camera.
 
Good for you! I had 4 text messages and 3 phone calls this morning from concerned friends to make sure it wasn't me or my son. Very sad situation, not many options coming off PDK, or really FTY for that matter. :no:

Cpt_Kirk said:
The local news approached for me for an interview because I was a Saratoga pilot. This was shortly before I departed for Florida.

"No thank you." I'm not going to answer their loaded questions on camera.
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N747JB said:
Good for you! I had 4 text messages and 3 phone calls this morning from concerned friends to make sure it wasn't me or my son. Very sad situation, not many options coming off PDK, or really FTY for that matter. :no:
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Same here. I had quite a few calls and texts to answer over the morning. I'm thankful so many people were concerned about me.
 
OkieAviator said:
Surely a fueled up Saratoga can handle 4 normal sized people.
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Yeah, unless they were taking a piano as a graduation present, weight shouldn't have a problem. I think someone mentioned earlier, mis-fueling is a possibility, but likely we'll never know. :(
 
N747JB said:
Yeah, unless they were taking a piano as a graduation present, weight shouldn't have a problem. I think someone mentioned earlier, mis-fueling is a possibility, but likely we'll never know. :(
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They will know... The motor is still in decent shape.. When they dissemble it and there are holes in the tops of the pistons, it had Jet A in the fuel system.. Hope I am wrong...
 
N801BH said:
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They will know... The motor is still in decent shape.. When they dissemble it and there are holes in the tops of the pistons, it had Jet A in the fuel system.. Hope I am wrong...
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I sump the tanks after every fueling... if I (Or someone else) puts JetA in it... won't I notice it? Only had someone else do the fuel twice.
 
Very bad deal here. This just flatly sucks. RIP and condolences to the families. Sounds to me like he made the best decision that he could at that point.

And, I agree, with the intensity and size of that fire, there wasn't much to do with a car carried fire extinguisher.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
DeckardTrinity said:
"Kulzer had not planned to attend, but finished her work as a CPA early, and was a late addition to the trip, hoping to surprise Robert, according to Kieffer."

I'm still relatively new here, so forgive me if this is taboo but... if we are allowed to speculate... perhaps W&B wasn't updated?
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I think that was a cherokee six. If so it has one hell of a useful load. Could easily carry 6 (including the pilot in that) normal size people without baggage. If they had a ton of baggage then not so much.

I'd rather this end up chalked up to something simple like a misfuel or W&B, as that's pilot error and something we can take a lesson away from.
 
N747JB said:
Good for you! I had 4 text messages and 3 phone calls this morning from concerned friends to make sure it wasn't me or my son. Very sad situation, not many options coming off PDK, or really FTY for that matter. :no:
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RYY ain't no prize either...

At all of the congested airports, I like to stay in the pattern for one climbing circle when I can. Lots more options when you're at low altitude 1/4 mile from the runway, rather than a mile away and headed away from the field.
 
N801BH said:
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They will know... The motor is still in decent shape.. When they dissemble it and there are holes in the tops of the pistons, it had Jet A in the fuel system.. Hope I am wrong...
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Plus I guarantee that the fueling records will be one of the first things the NTSB checks.
 
That's not a sight you want to see at the end of the runway. It's a good thing you didn't know what it was from!
RIP
 
gitmo234 said:
I think that was a cherokee six. If so it has one hell of a useful load. Could easily carry 6 (including the pilot in that) normal size people without baggage. If they had a ton of baggage then not so much.

I'd rather this end up chalked up to something simple like a misfuel or W&B, as that's pilot error and something we can take a lesson away from.
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It was a straight tail Lance. Load probably not an issue unless they had s ton of luggage. CG can be problematic at high loaded weights, but I doubt it would result in an accident like that.
 
gitmo234 said:
I think that was a cherokee six. If so it has one hell of a useful load. Could easily carry 6 (including the pilot in that) normal size people without baggage. If they had a ton of baggage then not so much.

I'd rather this end up chalked up to something simple like a misfuel or W&B, as that's pilot error and something we can take a lesson away from.
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I hate seeing things like this. My regards to the families.

If the link for that tail number was correct is was actually a straight tail Lance not a Saratoga. Regardless, that plane has a useful load of roughly 1300 lbs. So four people at about 680 (using FAA numbers), fuel at 600, put the plane at just shy of max weight. For a weekend, I am assuming that there was some luggage involved, so it is close depending on exact size of the people, and exactly how much fuel was on-board. I know it is not excusable or advisable, but if you were even 50 lbs over on that plane I do not see it causing that accident.
 
My theory was W&B. If four adults, full fuel and luggage, it could be close to being over on weight. But, knowing it had club seating, if the luggage was in the rear and the two pax were in the rear seats, it could be out of CG. Eyewitnesses say it was struggling to climb, and appeared unstable in pitch. Sounds like it might be CG to me?

Anyway, this happened about three miles from me, so it hit me a little harder than I would've thought. So maybe that's why my mind has been searching for answers all day?

Godspeed to the departed and their families. These never get easy to hear about.
 
ettsn said:
My theory was W&B. If four adults, full fuel and luggage, it could be close to being over on weight. But, knowing it had club seating, if the luggage was in the rear and the two pax were in the rear seats, it could be out of CG. Eyewitnesses say it was struggling to climb, and appeared unstable in pitch. Sounds like it might be CG to me?

Anyway, this happened about three miles from me, so it hit me a little harder than I would've thought. So maybe that's why my mind has been searching for answers all day?

Godspeed to the departed and their families. These never get easy to hear about.
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From the eye witness reports (which I understand are always spotty), it was reported the plane was struggling to climb then suddenly dropped. Sounds like the plane eventually stalled. Past rear cg limit would at least make that more likely.
 
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Did they ever say anything about engine failure? Like i mentioned before, this airplane had just arrived 45 minutes prior to this happening. I would like to think it wasn't engine failure , but more along the lines of what others are saying, the CG or a mis-fuel? thoughts?
 
Guarantee in a Lance W&B was not a factor unless (as someone said above) they had a piano packed in there. Useful load in a Lance is ~1400#. Full 94 gallons of fuel leaves ~850# of payload.

CG is only an issue in a Lance/Saratoga/Six when it's lightly loaded with a heavy pilot/front passenger - it's the very front of the envelope, sometimes too forward.

I've had 4 full-sized adults and 2 children packed in mine and still had some weight left over.
 
Hate reading these. My thoughts go out to the family members. RIP
 
brian109 said:
Hate reading these. My thoughts go out to the family members. RIP
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This one is rough. Nearly an entire family wiped out. I'm very curious to see the NTSB report. Incidents like this bother me because it could have been any one of us.
 
For those who are not familiar with the Atlanta West bypass - it is a suicide run that is wall to wall with speeding vehicles driven by the terminally insane. I pass through there 2 to 4 times a year pulling a large boat and I hate that stretch.
I just took the time to pull up the google world view of the crash area. There is no place to go if you are going down. Gives me the shivers just to look at the photos. I have driven the route many times but you are down in a ditch and cannot see anything of the surrounding area when passing through.

There are reasons I fly a twin - even if it is a clapped out piece of junk - and losing an engine on takeoff is one of them
And there is a reason I will not let anyone fuel my plane without me standing right there. (response to speculation above - not me speculating)
 
rbridges said:
This one is rough. Nearly an entire family wiped out. I'm very curious to see the NTSB report. Incidents like this bother me because it could have been any one of us.
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+1 :(
 
Dr. O said:
For those who are not familiar with the Atlanta West bypass - it is a suicide run that is wall to wall with speeding vehicles driven by the terminally insane. I pass through there 2 to 4 times a year pulling a large boat and I hate that stretch.
I just took the time to pull up the google world view of the crash area. There is no place to go if you are going down. Gives me the shivers just to look at the photos. I have driven the route many times but you are down in a ditch and cannot see anything of the surrounding area when passing through.

There are reasons I fly a twin - even if it is a clapped out piece of junk - and losing an engine on takeoff is one of them
And there is a reason I will not let anyone fuel my plane without me standing right there. (response to speculation above - not me speculating)
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Atlanta traffic is awful, especially on the interstates and Hwy 400. That's the reason I flew that day to KRYY for a meeting. I didn't want to be stuck in that crap when the meeting was over. They say other cities have it worse, and I hate it for people that have to sit in that grind day after day. The fact that no one on the ground was hurt is a minor miracle. Maybe the only silver lining to the whole incident.
 
rbridges said:
Atlanta traffic is awful, especially on the interstates and Hwy 400. That's the reason I flew that day to KRYY for a meeting. I didn't want to be stuck in that crap when the meeting was over. They say other cities have it worse, and I hate it for people that have to sit in that grind day after day. The fact that no one on the ground was hurt is a minor miracle. Maybe the only silver lining to the whole incident.
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The Peach Pass is a life saver for me since I can never be late for a departure. I utilize the entire length going from 985 to PDK.
 
From one of the attached articles-

The plane was clearly in distress, said witnesses, many who slammed on their brakes to avoid what was developing. No injuries on the ground were reported."It looked like it was struggling. You could see him trying to get the nose of the plane up. It was edging up, and then it just dropped," said motorist Don McGhee, 48, who saw the aircraft nearly hit a traffic light pole near the highway onramp. "It was just a huge fire, just smoke and fire."
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Sounds to me like engine failure, heavy plane, maneuvering for a landing on the highway, got slow and stalled. Totally understandable. In the stress of that moment it would be easy to not pay a lot of attention to the airspeed indicator.

RIP. Not a lot to learn here. It could have happened to any of us I suspect.
 
If the account of "struggling to get the nose up" is correct, I don't think it would be an aft cg issue. The forward cg limit is usually set based upon elevator authority for rotation. The aft cg based on maintaining a positive static margin for stability reasons. If you exceed the aft limit, the issue is usually loss of longitudinal stability, and an inability to get the nose down, not up.

The idea of a power problem and trying to land on the highway, and stalling, is what I am going with at the moment.

Very sad., RIP.

As someone said in an earlier post, the idea of staying in the pattern and circling to gain altitude at an airport surrounded by urban sprawl, is not a bad idea.
 
rbridges said:
This one is rough. Nearly an entire family wiped out. I'm very curious to see the NTSB report. Incidents like this bother me because it could have been any one of us.
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Exactly. It sounds like he chose his only option, and it was a bad one.

One of the many reasons I like being based at a fairly rural airport, and hate flying into congested, big city airports. At least at KTFP (Ingleside, TX) we have some decent options if the big fan stops.
 
Rcmutz said:
As someone said in an earlier post, the idea of staying in the pattern and circling to gain altitude at an airport surrounded by urban sprawl, is not a bad idea.
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Yeah, it makes sense. It seems like at an urban towered field, a standard departure procedure could be established so that climbing traffic wouldn't interfere with arriving traffic and everyone would be on the same page and know where to look for traffic. Seems reasonable to me.
 
Jay Honeck said:
One of the many reasons I like being based at a fairly rural airport, and hate flying into congested, big city airports. At least at KTFP (Ingleside, TX) we have some decent options if the big fan stops.
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You aren't lying. I was based out of TFP for a month a few years ago. Lot of places to put down if needed.
 
Rcmutz said:
If the account of "struggling to get the nose up" is correct, I don't think it would be an aft cg issue. The forward cg limit is usually set based upon elevator authority for rotation. The aft cg based on maintaining a positive static margin for stability reasons. If you exceed the aft limit, the issue is usually loss of longitudinal stability, and an inability to get the nose down, not up.

The idea of a power problem and trying to land on the highway, and stalling, is what I am going with at the moment.

Very sad., RIP.

As someone said in an earlier post, the idea of staying in the pattern and circling to gain altitude at an airport surrounded by urban sprawl, is not a bad idea.
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It would be very difficult to exceed the aft CG limit in a Lance. Forward limit maybe, but without a very unusual cargo, aft is about impossible.

I wouldn't try to read anything into 'eyewitness' comments.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You aren't lying. I was based out of TFP for a month a few years ago. Lot of places to put down if needed.
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Especially if we are taking off to the Northwest. Of course, that is very, very rare along the coast.
 
Dave Theisen said:
What makes me sick is the guy who got out of his car and walked up to it to take a picture. At least it wasn't a selfie.
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I would have. As a matter of fact, I'd probably have put it in video mode. THere is no telling how much good pictures of the aircraft before it melted down will help the NTSB figure out what really happened.

The internals of the engine should provide at least a clue as to what was happening just prior to impact.

I do have a question ... for the fellow that said that if it had been misfueled with JetA there would be holes in the pistons. I'm sort of curious how that would happen since the octane of JetA is somewhere down in the 15-20 range? You would (or should) have gotten detonation and the engine shaking like a wet puppy before you ever rotated.

Just thinking out loud ...

Jim
 
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weirdjim said:
I would have. As a matter of fact, I'd probably have put it in video mode. THere is no telling how much good pictures of the aircraft before it melted down will help the NTSB figure out what really happened.

The internals of the engine should provide at least a clue as to what was happening just prior to impact.

I do have a question ... for the fellow that said that if it had been misfueled with JetA there would be holes in the pistons. I'm sort of curious how that would happen since the octane of JetA is somewhere down in the 15-20 range? You would (or should) have gotten detonation and the engine shaking like a wet puppy before you ever rotated.

Just thinking out loud ...

Jim
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Not sure about the holes but the 100ll in the lines may be enough to get you airborne. Happened to Bob Hoover.
 
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