PA28-140

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Andrew Byrd, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. Andrew Byrd

    Andrew Byrd Pre-Flight

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    Hey guys,
    I'm looking at purchasing my first airplane, a 1967 Piper Cherokee Cruiser, and I was just curious as to what all I need to take into consideration as far as operating costs go. I've got the obvious like hangar, insurance, loan, fuel, oil, engine and prop reserve, but I know there's got to be more, and I was just curious what that would be, and how much it would cost. Thanks everyone.
     
  2. flhrci

    flhrci En-Route

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    Maybe planning for future upgrades? Not an owner, but that may be something I would want to take into consideration.
     
  3. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Calling @Timbeck2, he has a 140. A few others here also, don't recall who though.
     
  4. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    @CC268 You have a 140 don’t you?
     
  5. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    ADS-B out?
     
  6. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    database subscriptions if u got a gps
     
  7. MickYoumans

    MickYoumans Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yes, with an older plane there will be things you will want to update as you have the time and money. What is the radio stack like? Does it have ADS-B yet?

    When I bought my Cherokee, I spent the first two years just getting everything in first class mechanical shape including having the fuel tanks refurbished by Woodstock Aviation. The next year I did my first of two radio stack upgrades. The year after it was time for the control cables, linkage and pulley inspections. After the shop pulled out the old interior, I just couldn't see putting that old junk back in so we installed a complete AirTex leather interior. Next it was a major engine overhaul. After recouping from the new engine costs I got her painted. This past summer I put in a GTN650 and GTX345 ADS-B package to finish off my radio stack.

    For what it's worth, here is a link to a thread I had a while back with the full story and pictures (except for the last radio stack update)

    https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/n6966w-refurbishment.86802/

    Best of luck with your purchase!
     
  8. John221us

    John221us En-Route

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    I had a 1968 for several years. They are great planes and probably the best value out there! Get a good pre-buy inspection and be prepared for some catch up maintenance the first year or two. That is true of any used plane, though. The guy who did my pre-buy missed some obvious stuff, like all the hoses were 25 years old and some other things that added up. I added shoulder harnesses pretty quickly after buying it, but that is a personal choice. If you are going to do your IR in it, then buy one with an IFR certified panel already installed. I didn't and was facing about $10K in panel upgrades on a $25K airplane (I ended up selling it, instead). They are super fun planes to fly and carry a decent load for 2+2 (not what you would call a true four seater, but great for two people and a lot of baggage).
     
  9. Andrew Byrd

    Andrew Byrd Pre-Flight

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    Thanks! Sounds like you chunked out a big stack of money to me haha.
    The ad I saw has the following listed as the avionics:
    Garmin GMA 340 Audio Panel
    Garmin GNS 430 Nav/Comm 1
    Garmin GTR 200 COMM 2
    Narco Nav122 Nav 2
    Garmin GTX 327 Mode C Transponder

    As far as ADS-B,I wouldn't plan on having this plane but maybe a year to a year and a half at the longest. I'm currently at a large flight school in south Florida, and I'm exploring cheap time-building options for me and a couple friends at the school.
     
  10. Andrew Byrd

    Andrew Byrd Pre-Flight

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    I'm 2/3 of the way through my IR, but I'd be using it for commercial time-building, but it is IR certified. Also, one of my roommates is a F16 crew chief who also works in the shop at our flight school, so I could have him look over it and I highly doubt he'd charge me.
     
  11. Andrew Byrd

    Andrew Byrd Pre-Flight

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    Do you know about how much that costs?
     
  12. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    do you know what gps you have?

    'if' its a 430 or equivalent, I think the bundles start at like five hundid.
     
  13. MickYoumans

    MickYoumans Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yes, if you plan on having it for a short period of time I would not put any more into it than necessary to maintain airworthy.

    For me, I don't see ever selling my plane and I will be the one to get the good out of my upgrades. I'm sure I can't sell it for what I have in it but that does not matter to me since I plan on keeping it. I love all of my upgrades. Down the road I think the plane will be easy to sell with the upgrades.
     
  14. Andrew Byrd

    Andrew Byrd Pre-Flight

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    Sounds like you've got yourself a pretty sweet ride for a fairly reasonable price when talking airplanes.
     
  15. MickYoumans

    MickYoumans Cleared for Takeoff

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    For the flying that I do it suits me very well and I really enjoy it. It is super easy to fly and low hourly cost to operate.
     
  16. Andrew Byrd

    Andrew Byrd Pre-Flight

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    Yeah, I did my PPL in a 172 and I thought I loved it, but I've been doing IR in a PA28-161 with Avidyne glass and it is amazing. The only issue I have with Piper is how they don't have a "both" option for the fuel selector. It's not a huge deal to me, but a few weeks before I started at my flight school they had a student who was by himself and forgot to switch tanks and ended up landing it on the interstate with a full wing.
     
  17. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The 140 was the first Piper I flew since getting my PPL ticket, and after I got checked out in it I loved it. It strongly influenced my decision to buy an Arrow.
     
  18. Art Rose

    Art Rose Pre-Flight

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    One additional big consideration will be the unknown cost of annuals. Take what I'm about to say for what you think its worth, and this is not an attempt to discourage. I've flown airplanes for 30 years, and I've owned airplanes for 17 years. If money's so tight that you feel it's absolutely necessary to nail down the total cost of ownership of an aircraft for recreational purposes, it might be time to reconsider ownership. There's tons of ways to cut costs, but unless you have good mentorship to guide you, it'll cost you as you learn. Most of us who fly for fun really don't want to know exactly what it costs. Whatever it is though certainly gives me a joy that nothing else in life does. I went experimental several years back as a way to crank up the joy, and cut some of the ridiculous costs associated with a regulatory system in need of a major overhaul, but experimentals are not necessarily a good path for a beginner. By the way, your very first consideration should have been mission. A 140 is a great multi-purpose starter aircraft, but it has a ton of drawbacks that can be totally dictated by your mission. Why did you pick a Cherokee 140?
     
  19. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Everything Offends Me
    140 is a great little plane. But I’ll ask the natural question - the price difference between the 140 and the 180 is negligible. Why not go for the 180 instead and get all of the benefits of a bigger engine and better performance?

    Nothing wrong with the 140 though. It’s just not as much of a plane as a similarly priced 180.
     
  20. murphey

    murphey Final Approach

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    Altho those of us at the altitudes prefer the 180, the OP is in Florida (flatlanders) and with a partner or 2, is only going to keep it less than a couple years, using it for time building and finishing the IR and COM. To me, this is a very practical approach if the airplane doesn't cost much to fix those old-age problems, such as the 25 yr old hoses and such. It's not the latest & greatest avionics, but for learning the fundamentals, looks like a good deal.

    But what do I know? I bought Apple and Amazon back the in late 90s and sold Amazon when it started tanking in '99.
     
  21. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    I've got a '66 140...I love it. A 180 would be pointless for me, as I fly 99% 2 up, I'm a flatlander, and my 140 is modded to the hilt.
    As far as your list, you have the basics down for expenses. Just make sure you have some reserve money for those things unforeseen: I've had sub $1000 annuals, and then there was this year, with its record setting $18000 annual (don't ask).
     
  22. Andrew Byrd

    Andrew Byrd Pre-Flight

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    When people talk about the price of annuals, especially your most recent, am I to assume that that includes parts, or just a fee for inspection. For example, I've seen from most people the average annual is $1,000 to $2,000...is that just the inspection fee, and if they find anything its gonna cost more? If that's the case I'm really curious how you dropped $18,000 for the inspection
     
  23. John221us

    John221us En-Route

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    Right, that is going to depend on where you live, etc. Here in NorCal, my inspections were running about $1,500, but they are cheaper elsewhere. Clearly, he had some surprise maintenance. I saw some of that too. The biggest one was a bad repair on the skin under the wing, where someone in the past had drilled through the spar when installing a rivet. That involved engineering and a DER and about $6,000. So, that can happen. I am not trying to scare you out of ownership, but surprises happen and if you own the plane, then you get to fix them.
     
  24. Glenn D

    Glenn D Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have a '67 140, with minimal equipment... and with an O-360 engine, it really screams... so for cost, the 2 annuals I have done cost $175 each for the IA, and about $1200 the first year, and $750 the 2nd for parts... I do all my own work so there is that.... I love this plane,,, see 150 mph plus and it is a blast to fly. I do need ADS-B out next year, and another radio, will be installing -2- G5's to cover the instrument issues, and instrument lights... other than that, more speed mods, and new seats, the foam is crumbling.... Great little plane. Cheap insurance, outside tiedown at $60 per month,

    Enjoy your 140 and have fun with it!..
     
  25. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Yessir although my dad really owns the plane and I just pay him a monthly fee to fly it and pay for my fuel. Wish I could help but I’m not the best person to answer the question. It’s been a great plane mechanically, but avionics have really nickel and dimed us since I’m getting my IR in it. If I was just VFR then it wouldn’t be too bad.
     
  26. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Be it a 140 (141...whatever it takes) or any other plane, you can't nail down an absolute "cost" to own one. My '69 140 experience is going on three years now. It was pretty much stock when I bought it and then I found out what was wrong with it. My first annual was over 5 grand which included the aforementioned 25 year old hoses and other items that were overlooked on annuals. My last annual was about 2 grand and that because it included replacing a thousand dollar steering horn. My next annual I'm betting on being under one thousand, maybe just the $350 fee I pay for the annual. I done a lot of upgrades with more planned. I love to work on my plane and really don't get wound up in the costs of ownership. I pay what I need to as far as care and feeding go and then what I can when it comes to upgrades.
     
  27. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Your ownership costs will be lower with a Cherokee than just about any other certificated aircraft. Hell, the airframe only has about 1200 parts. I think my Mooney has more screws just in the cowling.

    That said, ownership for training is a gamble. Yeah, it could be way cheaper, but you’re one big engine repair from being upside down. Perhaps you won’t need the ADSB to fly around Florida (hard to believe with all the controlled airspace) but you’ll almost certainly need it to sell. Me, I’d take the safer bet in a club or rental, but I’ve never been much of a gambling man.
     
  28. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route

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    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    I owned a Cherokee with a partner for 20 years and several hundred hours. Simple airplane, easy to fly, got my ir in it. Things to watch for are play in the trim mechanism, cracked wing walk supports and spar corrosion. The airframe is bone simple. The hershey bar wing is great in a cross-wind, as when it lands, it lands. If it's got the old style scissors gear, be sure the link is dye penned for cracks and the bushings aren't worn.

    As far as no "both", I always thought that to be an advantage. If you run one tank out of fuel, there should for sure be fuel in the other, unless, of course, you're a real bonehead. Run "both" out of fuel, you're a glider.
     
  29. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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  30. N4846L

    N4846L Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi. I’m a new member and this is my first post. So, I hope it’s in the right place. I purchased my 1967 cherokee D last July. Your list of costs are correct. It’s the little things that will pop up. I put in shoulder harnesses immediately. That’s a no brainer. The trim switches will wear out and are expensive to replace. I had the AI overhauled. 50 year Old gyros will fail. And the stock panel lights are terrible. So I replaced. The point is that my airplane is in excellent health for a 50 year olds. The cost of operation will be to fix any moving object that breaks.
     
  31. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Welcome to the forum. You had trim switches, an auto pilot and panel lights? :eek:

    ;)
     
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  32. N4846L

    N4846L Filing Flight Plan

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    No, I’m sorry. I meant to say my attitude indicator failed. Luckily during VFR. My autopilot still works well amazingly enough.
     
  33. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Not much to add, but if you and your buds can't cough up $25K for a lunched engine, rent.
     
  34. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    When I bought my 140 a dozen years ago, there was a 50% premium on an Archer. Long run, an Archer would serve me better, but as a first time buyer didn't want to bite more than I could comfortably chew. Looking back, the $25K delta is kind of laughable.
     
  35. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    That $18000 included an annual, parts, and a bunch of stuff that I wanted fixed that didn't have to be fixed. It was my own doing, as the annual would have "only" been $6000 if I hadn't kept saying, "Fix that too". With these older planes, you do need some tolerance for things like: "you have to tap on the gyro to get it to spin", or "move the switch back and forth if when you switch the radios but only hear static", or even "the paint is perfect except for all the chips in the nosewheel fairing". I had tried to eliminate ALL little bugs, hence the $18000. BTW, $18000 didn't eliminate them all...just fixed a bunch for an anal-retentive guy like me.
     
  36. John221us

    John221us En-Route

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    The problem is; these are older airplanes and they can kill you. If you want a safely maintained plane, and that is one of the main reasons I owned and didn’t rent, you need to be ready to pony up for that maintenance. If you are looking for a gaurantee of lower costs, you are probably better off renting, although, as mentioned, you could get lucky.

    I have been shopping off and on for my next plane and have had three into pre-buy and I can tell you that many/most of the sub $100k planes have a lot of deferred maintenance. I had three fall out of pre-buy for items that my mechanic considered airworthy and there were tons of non-airworthy items that I, personally, would not have deferred. You also have planes that sit and rot for a few years and then the owner finds someone to sign off a bare bones annual (read “pencil whipped”) and puts it on the market. 20 minutes with the log books can usually flush that stuff out, along with the undisclosed damage history, incorrect total time (a tach swap doesn’t mean total time goes back to zero), etc.

    I love owning a plane, but it probably isn’t the cheapest way to fly. At least it wasn’t for me and as you can see, a few other people, as well.
     
  37. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    "Both" on the fuel selector is fine for a high-wing plane with gravity feed, but is intentionally omitted for a low wing. With one dry tank on a low-wing in "both," you're sucking air. Many DARs will fail an inspection on an Experimental low-wing if so configured.

    So nice that the EFIS has a timer/reminder to switch tanks every 30 minutes.
     
  38. Gary

    Gary En-Route

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    Going on 18 years of ownership of a 1967 140. Does everything I want, but 15 more knots in airspeed would be nice! Safe, forgiving and easy to fly. Reasonable load and interior room, particularly with the rear seats removed. Lots of mechanics are familiar and parts easy to find. Biggest plus is that I can afford to keep it! Looks like you have the basics covered, a few other items that might crop up in a 45+ year old airframe.

    Not sure which engine you have, I've got a D2A - 160hp with the hollow crankshaft, requires periodic inspection for corrosion.
    Hoses have been covered, they age and get brittle. When was the last changeout of the fuel tank hoses or brake lines?
    The stock exhaust is marginal at best, the muffler isn't much more than a big beer can and the carb heat muff gets cracked and patched over time.
    Struts are reliable, but do sometime stick or need re-inflation.
    Control cables and rigging are important, proper tension and getting the ailerons/flaps set correctly helps a lot for speed and handling.
    Flap and aileron gap seals, vortex generators and the wing tip modification help a lot for low speed handling, slight improvement in speed.
    Shoulder belts are a huge improvement in safety (thank you Adamz!).
    Electrical issues will occur, switches wear out, connections get corroded, components go SNAFU... troubleshooting those are my biggest PITA.
    Trim on the roof is quirky, but I've come to love it!

    Not sure how to put a dollar value on all of that, but hopefully you've got a few $1000's in reserve for those known unknowns! Most important thing in my mind is, like all mechanical things, they work most reliably when used often, that and change the oil/filter regularly! Best of luck with it!!