PA-24 future support

[hindsight2020]

Hey folks,

Anyody care to comment on the future of parts and airframe support of the Comanche line? Most of the info on the net is 10 years old and looking to see where things are sitting on that airframe.

My Arrow fits my mission, currently leaving me about 188# under gross. Climbs on the TX summer are safe but not exactly comfortable. Cruise is fine considering the fuel economy (14-15NMPG) and cheap acquisition cost. Looking at upgrades for future comfort and/or a growing family, it screams Dakota RG but alas, Piper never made it.

182RG and 250/60 Bos are the alternative and I have some reasons to discount both (for another thread I suppose).

When I look at the Comanche pricing I think to myself perhaps there's a reason they're cheaper? What all say you? As much as I'd be delighted with 6 cylinder climb rates and an additional 20 knots block time, I value the assurance of having parts availability and simplicity of maintenance so I can get in the business of going flying and burn avgas. PA-28s are a delight in that regard and absolutely love that about my arrow. All I read on Comanches online screams "museum" and "specialized mechanic" and that's a deal breaker. Looking at qualified opinions from those BTDT on the PA-24 looking at the next decade of ownership. Thanks!

 

[asgcpa]

I looked long and hard at the Comanche. I flew a 260 that I was checking out. In a nutshell, I think it's a great plane. Piper discontinuing production IMO was a disservice to GA as I really think it's a better plane than the Arrow.

There obviously is a following. I would advise joining the international Comanche society. Great advice and knowledge there. In speaking with A&P familiar with Comanches, parts are available, you just need to know where to get them. In that respect you need to establish a relationship with a reputable Comanche expert.

 

[Henning]

The Dakota RG was just up sized to a PA-32-R series. It really depends on what you are looking for. The Comanche is slicker, but not as spacious with much less luggage room. In the 6 seat setup, there is no luggage room except in the seats. If you are hauling 4, this works out with smaller kids as they get a row to themselves with a bag or two. The Lance will have luggage behind the club or commuter seating as well as in the nose.

 

[dans2992]

Th owner of the shop that maintains ours also owns a Comanche himself. That helps...

 

[frfly172]

So far there has been no problem getting parts for the Comanche line. The best info available is by joining the Comanche society.

 

[Bob Noel]

I looked long and hard at the Comanche. I flew a 260 that I was checking out. In a nutshell, I think it's a great plane. Piper discontinuing production IMO was a disservice to GA as I really think it's a better plane than the Arrow.

It's my understanding that the flood was a huge reason for "discontinuing" the line.

 

[hindsight2020]

The Dakota RG was just up sized to a PA-32-R series. It really depends on what you are looking for.

I don't feel the Lance is good match for my mission. The Arrow meets my weight requirement. I'm a 2+1 family plus 120# of crap. We're not sure we'll ever be 2+2 but if we do it's a 4 year away proposition at best (wife in school now so no way to a second kid for a great while). So looking ahead 10 years I'm comfortable planning on a 2+2 plus 150# of bags plus 6 hours endurance mission profile.

I'm like you, I pull that red knob back with abandon. The lance is just slow for the gas. It does what, 140 on 12GPH? I do 130-135 on 9 on the arrow. I just don't need to cart that much empty volume. The reason I'm doing this mental exercise is Im looking at a potential addition of 1000NM TX-FL hop 4x year due to the parents not wanting to move out of PR to TX full time. As such, northeast FL part-time is the best they can do to help me out and me not to have to pay 3x holiday airline tickets to that damn island. That's a two-hop commando-style like I did in my single days, but with family it's a solid three-hop. That sounds painful, although I suppose perfectly doable.

Th owner of the shop that maintains ours also owns a Comanche himself. That helps...

Do you care to expand on how your ownership experience has been since owning the Comanche? Has part availability been a factor in your dispatch rate? Does the proposition of an FBO truck backing up to your stabilator or ailerons cause you pause from an airframe repair/insurance write-off POV? I know it doesn't to me when I look at my Arrow, especially off-station.

So far there has been no problem getting parts for the Comanche line. The best info available is by joining the Comanche society.

The reason I love POA and why I'm inclined to ask the question amongst this fine company is that I feel I'm much more likely to get objective criticism on here than on a type-specific web forum where everybody has a vested interest in validating their choice whilst minimizing/obscuring the negatives. POA is a sort of "equal opportunity haters" club from my experience. I mean, where else can you go online to be told 3 times a week your aircraft ownership choice is mediocre by a bunch of cheap seat JV quarterbacks and still be considered virtual friends? .

 

[asgcpa]

It's my understanding that the flood was a huge reason for "discontinuing" the line.

That is the official answer, but I hear the Comanche was costlier to produce than the Arrow and Piper did not want two similar aircraft in their product line from two assembly lines.

 

[asgcpa]

You may just want to look at a Dakota or a 182RG. The reason I stopped looking at an Arrow was the useful load issue for my mission.

 

[JHW]

support will be fine for the forseeable future, there is an excellent owner's group, plenty of used airframes, and aftermarket companies making common wear items

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Comanche owner here.

A few parts, such as gear conduits, have become temporarily scarce and are single-sourced. Webco Aircraft provides great parts support, but have had some quality control problems with suppliers, which I understand they are working to rectify. Additionally, the recent tail horn AD has created some torque tube supply disruption. There are two types of gear transmissions, one beefier and of much higher quality than the other, and high quality replacements are expensive and scarce. Other than those, I've not heard of any real supply problems.

As far as stabilators, there are some very fine shops that specialize in wing, fuselage and control surface repair and have the proper jigs to do major work. there's not much very complicated about the Comanche.

The great thing bout the aircraft is the factory zinc-chromating which has really limited the airframe corrosion troubles found on older airplanes. Yes, there are some AD's. Look for an airplane that that has a no-AD prop, an Aussie tail horn and a recent 1000 hr gear inspection and that will take care of the biggies.

It's a nice flying airplane, and a well-maintained example should be a great value. My annuals for the last couple years have been non-events. But you have to be the kind of owner that doesn't mind getting your hands dirty. Preventative mx is crucial.

PM me if you want more specifics.

 

[hindsight2020]

Comanche owner here.

A few parts, such as gear conduits, have become temporarily scarce and are single-sourced. Webco Aircraft provides great parts support, but have had some quality control problems with suppliers, which I understand they are working to rectify. Additionally, the recent tail horn AD has created some torque tube supply disruption. There are two types of gear transmissions, one beefier and of much higher quality than the other, and high quality replacements are expensive and scarce. Other than those, I've not heard of any real supply problems.

As far as stabilators, there are some very fine shops that specialize in wing, fuselage and control surface repair and have the proper jigs to do major work. there's not much very complicated about the Comanche.

The great thing bout the aircraft is the factory zinc-chromating which has really limited the airframe corrosion troubles found on older airplanes. Yes, there are some AD's. Look for an airplane that that has a no-AD prop, an Aussie tail horn and a recent 1000 hr gear inspection and that will take care of the biggies.

It's a nice flying airplane, and a well-maintained example should be a great value. My annuals for the last couple years have been non-events. But you have to be the kind of owner that doesn't mind getting your hands dirty. Preventative mx is crucial.

PM me if you want more specifics.

Excellent feedback. I sent you a PM with a few more questions. Thanks!!

 

[kyleb]

Comanche owner here.

<snip>

PM me if you want more specifics.

If you're gonna do all that typing for a PM, might as well put it in the public forum so you get more bang for the buck. I'd love to hear anything you have to say. I took a serious look at a Comanche 250 partnership a year or so ago. Once I realized how far it was to where the airplane is based, I had to walk away from the deal, which was a really good opportunity otherwise.

 

[dans2992]

Do you care to expand on how your ownership experience has been since owning the Comanche? Has part availability been a factor in your dispatch rate? Does the proposition of an FBO truck backing up to your stabilator or ailerons cause you pause from an airframe repair/insurance write-off POV? I know it doesn't to me when I look at my Arrow, especially off-station.

I am in a partnership with two other guys. All three of us were previously in a club that had a Comanche. One of my partners was the "maintenance officer" for the club, and our Comanche expert. He knows the shops in our area and where to find parts. He's retired and likes to make sure the maintenance is well attended to.

It's one of the nicest Comanches I've ever seen, and we are about to re-do the interior as well.

Dispatch reliability? It's not once failed to dispatch for a mechanical reason since I've owned it. Of course, we keep it in tip top shape and I've only owned it for 2.5 years, but so far that is my experience.

It had an engine overhaul ($45k) right before I bought in and with that, Vref at the time was over $100k.

There are still a lot of Comanches out there, and if the insurance company were to total it, well, that's what insurance is for.

I can stuff 5 people (one is a child) plus bags (packed light), full fuel and fly non-stop from Phoenix to Cabo at 160kts. That's about maxing out the capability of the plane, but to get more, I'd have to spend more in operating costs. (I've flown it 900nm non-stop, but only the hardiest passengers are up for that...

If I were to look at moving up, I'd want to add turbo and FIKI (pressurized cabin would be very nice too). I think my next step would be a Malibu/Mirage for more pax comfort and weather capability while still keeping the fuel burn somewhat reasonable.

 

[Kristin]

I will confess to be Comanche biased. I own a Twin Comanche which I maintain as well as several others locally. That being said, I actually have more time on the Bo's than Comanches, and have flown about all the B, C, and P models over the years.

Parts have not been much of a problem. Piper still makes most of the ones that wear out. They even make the conduits that operate the main landing gear, though they don't stock a lot of them.

Comanche owners can be a little fanatical. That makes it hard to get unbiased opinions, but then, they will tell you way they have owned the same plane for decades and decades. That helps in that the community actively helps support each other.

The good about the planes is that they are fast and efficient, a delight to fly, and hell-on strong. Because all the sheet metal was treated with zinc chromate before being riveted together, there is rarely issues with airframe corrosion, even in the seams that are left unprotected if the plane was assembled before treatment.

The bad is that you have to be an active owner, unless you live close to one of 6-10 shops that really know the Comanche. It is often necessary for the owner to inform him/herself as to the issues and the methods for fixing things and then take that information to their A&P. You really need to join the community. Fortunately, with the internet, this is much easier to do. In addition to ICS, there is a forum that is free, which I nominally moderate. We are a pretty good group and even have some members who used to have a Comanche who stick around. http://forums.delphiforums.com/comanches/start

The Arrow was the first Piper I flew, which was during my primary training. I loved it. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the airplane. But it doesn't hold a candle to the Comanche. The Comanche 180 will outrun and out carry the Arrow, on 20 less horsepower. That tells you all you need to know about the aerodynamics. The Comanche has a great wing that likes altitude. Even without turbos, the 250/260 Comanche will climb right up into the low teens which is nice to get up where it is cool and smooth.

If you get serious about looking at a Comanche, I am happy to help. I do pre-buys and transition training. In the meantime, I am happy to answer Comanche questions here or in PM.

 

[PA-11]

Remember all these concerns you have when you're trying to sell.

 

[Kristin]

Remember all these concerns you have when you're trying to sell.

That is true of any airplane. Who can guarantee that Beech will support the older Bonanza's in 20 years. If Cirrus went bankrupt those owners would be a a world of hurt. Sometimes the older airplanes are easier to maintain without support because most all of the components were common AN/MS pieces of equipment. At least fixing an aluminum structure is well known for the last 75+ years. Not so the composites.

 

[jbarrass]

I own a Comanche too. There are a couple parts that are unique enough to be expensive, but it's not too bad. There are a couple specialty places (Webco, Comanche Gear, etc.) that fill the gap the factory left. The owners groups are very active (fanatical?) and there is a very good support structure out there.

 

[vfsit]

I figure I'll join the conversation... I purchased a 1960 Comanche 250 at the end of May last year. Kristin and others from the Comanche boards know my story. I'll back up and say #1 never buy and airplane from a lazy mechanic I did. in the first year I replaced the battery, #4 cylinder (2 months in to ownership), did the Aussie horn, fixed oil leaks from numerous places (like a sieve comes to mind) including prop seal so obviously we have pulled the prop. rebuilt the mags, replaced the DG, installed an EGT/CHT and fuel flow, replaced landing lights, rebuilt the brakes, swapped original mixture control for a vernier control, fixed the slipping throttle lock, replaced 2 circuit breakers, installed an avionics master, installed new baffles (thanks Matt you rock btw), and many more small things. She is now down for her annual and thankfully its gonna be a non event after a year TLC to her.

Why do I tell you this? To tell you that I have not have an issue getting any parts to do all that I have done. The Aussie horn was delayed right when they get FAA approval but that backlog is apparently a non issue now. I've got my bird over the hump and once she was back up in Feb after the horn AD and a lot of the other work was done, I had flown her about 60 hrs without a hiccup until she went down now for her scheduled annual. I have no regrets buying into the Comanche line and would do it again in a heartbeat. Only regret I have is that I should have found one that has the tip tanks... 30 gal increase and a 300# increase in your useful load. yep, wish mine had those but not gonna pull that trigger for a while at least.

Obviously I'll happily answer any question you have in public here or PM like anyone else. About the maintenance, agree you need someone that knows them. In Atlanta I got lucky and have two Delta mechanics that completely restored a 260B about 10 years ago that I convinced to maintain my plane. Having the right people working on any plane is key.

Side note... Kristin, looks like I'm gonna be out in San Fran 2nd week in August working a show. If you are around I'd love to come visit and meet Maggie. Maybe pitch into the Maggie flying fund to see some of your local area from the air we can talk more about that off of here so we don't hijack this thread.

Andy
N6641P

 

[Kristin]

Side note... Kristin, looks like I'm gonna be out in San Fran 2nd week in August working a show. If you are around I'd love to come visit and meet Maggie. Maybe pitch into the Maggie flying fund to see some of your local area from the air we can talk more about that off of here so we don't hijack this thread.

I should be around. Come on up. Email me at kristin_winter at com cast dot net.

 

[charheep]

I looked hard at this one for a long time. The owner is/was very generous with knowledge. He might be a good person to talk to (and a fine bird if you are looking). I didnt get as far as a pre-buy but from chatting with the owner, he seemed very upfront and wasnt hiding anything.

http://webpages.charter.net/edfred/comanche

Good luck!