Oxygen questions

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
First, let me start by saying I know just enough about this topic to ask this nebulous question.

Yesterday, I stopped by an O2 supplier to ask about equipment, prices, etc. He showed me a bottle, regulator, disposable mask/ cannula and said that refills are $30 each. This is for a 425Liter bottle and said that my initial costs should be about the $200 price point. I was impressed by the low cost of entry (I thought it would be around the $500+ price point).

Then he said that he can't sell to anyone off the street, that because it's medicinal grade it requires a prescription, but he may be able to accept my pilot credentials - he would have to check. And he wasn't sure if the medicinal grade would suit my aviation purposes. He says they also sell aviation oxygen to middle-men who then resell it. He says that he believes the aviation grade has lower moisture content. His coworker advised that I visit a dive shop, that they may be able to offer better equipment and would better understand my needs (this was an industrial supply shop).

Doing some research this morning, I figure the flow rate should be about 6LpM, which yields just under 71 minutes on the 425L bottle.

The highest I've been thus far in an unpressurized cabin is 7,500MSL and that was a cruise time of about 5 minutes before it was time to start the decent. This was during a night XC training mission during PPL training; my CFI let me plan and execute the entire flight including altitude selection. I was trying to catch those high tailwinds :rofl:. I felt normal.

This potential equipment purchase is for:
1- The planned high-altitude XC that I may take once in a blue-moon
2- A small kit that I may be a more likely purchase for an emergency standby kit

Am I in the right ballpark for this?
 
7500 MSL won't get me where I go. 11000 MSL east bound, 10000 MSL west bound is more like it.

That said, I will be interested in following this discussion, as well. I keep thinking about a portable system for two people. Needs to be portable as I don't own, but belong to a club.
 
Jaybird180;966847........Then he said that he can't sell to anyone off the street said:
All Oxygen is the same.. welders, medical, aviators. The shear cost of segregating all the different types at the supply house would eat into the profits...... The guy who told you that should know better since he works in the industry. IMHO.
 
Doc Bruce has posted before about his setup with a big medical bottle, far bigger than a typical aviation one, that he uses in his Seneca, and about the gear to use it. That post should be a Sticky somewhere here. It has good info in it. Do a search it should show up.
 
For a basic 1 user system you need 4 components.

1. Tank
2. Regulator
3. Flow meter/valve to verify and adjust flow rate based on altitude.
4. Cannulla or mask, Cannulla is good to 18,000 feet above that you need a mask.

I would recommend an Oxysaver or Oxymiser cannulla as it will reduce the amount of oxygen needed. With one of these a 425L bottle should last 10 hours. I would expect this system to cost about $400. Tank ~$100 Regulator~$200 mask and flowmeter ~$100.
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page35.htm The 1-D system for example

The best system would be the Mountain High system which would cost about $750+ the Tank. This system is a turn on and forget system It will automatically adjust the flow rate for altitude and will give you the longest duration. It will also warn you if you are not breathing through the cannulla.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/mh-o2d1.htm

Note I currently use the 1st system but am considering upgrading the second, I have used about 35 hours of oxygen this month in my sailplane flying up to 19,500.
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I have a Mountain High O2D2 which is great- set it and forget it. I went with that system because I found that I'm sensitive to altitude so I just breath oxygen regularly- no big deal. I found a used EDS (less than a year old), purchased a regulator from Mountain High, and purchased O2 bottles from a medical supply house for half the price of the aviation oxygen companies (with the same valve BTW).

However- at 7500 I wouldn't mess with oxygen unless I was flying at night.
 
I like to use a medical set up.Use medical cylinder medical regulater and medical canulas and masks . you may want to experiment with liter flow for your use.
 
For a basic 1 user system you need 4 components.

1. Tank
2. Regulator
3. Flow meter/valve to verify and adjust flow rate based on altitude.
4. Cannulla or mask, Cannulla is good to 18,000 feet above that you need a mask.

I would recommend an Oxysaver or Oxymiser cannulla as it will reduce the amount of oxygen needed. With one of these a 425L bottle should last 10 hours. I would expect this system to cost about $400. Tank ~$100 Regulator~$200 mask and flowmeter ~$100.
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page35.htm The 1-D system for example

The best system would be the Mountain High system which would cost about $750+ the Tank. This system is a turn on and forget system It will automatically adjust the flow rate for altitude and will give you the longest duration. It will also warn you if you are not breathing through the cannulla.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/mh-o2d1.htm

Note I currently use the 1st system but am considering upgrading the second, I have used about 35 hours of oxygen this month in my sailplane flying up to 19,500.
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Can this be implemented for multiple users? For example 4 users at 2.5 hours?
 
Doc Bruce has posted before about his setup with a big medical bottle, far bigger than a typical aviation one, that he uses in his Seneca, and about the gear to use it. That post should be a Sticky somewhere here. It has good info in it. Do a search it should show up.
It's a sticky in the Medical Topics forum.
 
No such thing as medical oxygen... It all comes out of the liquid oxygen bulk tank out behind the building... Lots of CYA by dealers to avoid law suits in the medical O2, etc..

Do a search on refilling portable oxygen bottles from a welding cylinder... The adapter to do this is about $30... Buy a welding set oxygen bottle from a welding supply so that you are a registered owner... Do NOT mention airplane when you buy it or get it filled (they usually just exchange your shiny new bottle for an old, battered one unless you deliver it one day and pick it up the next)... If they ask, shrug and say it is for welding... When they ask about acetylene just say you are good for now...

Buy your aircraft bottle/regulators/hoses/masks off the internet... Enjoy your savings...

denny-o
old welder
old farmer
old O2 pilot...
 
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My dad sold oxygen at his metal/fabrication/tool and die shop for 3 decades, medical and otherwise... No prescription needed, not in Mississippi anyway. I just sold some this past week was $35 for one of those 5' tall bottles full.
 
Speaking of Oxygen, what is the best way to get a bottle filled at a welding supply co, and then use that to fill a factory on board O2 system. What fixtures would be needed?
 
Can this be implemented for multiple users? For example 4 users at 2.5 hours?

Yes they can, It is really as simple as putting a Tee or connector so that each passenger has their own flow meter. This insure that each one is getting enough oxygen. I believe the only limitation is how much O2 the regulator can deliver. Many regulators have separate ports so that you can plug each flow meter and cannulla directly into the regulator.

Of course each passengers flow meter needs to be adjust individually as the altitude changes. I have only flown with O2 and passengers a couple times so there may be better systems for doing so. I can imagine having the pilot control the O2 might be a better solution, but not sure how this is done. But then unlike a glider, altitude changes don't happen that often in power aircraft so, perhaps it isn't much of an issue.

Brian
 
Speaking of Oxygen, what is the best way to get a bottle filled at a welding supply co, and then use that to fill a factory on board O2 system. What fixtures would be needed?

1st don't tell them it is breathing oxygen and don't bring them a bottle marked breathing oxygen. Bring them a normal welding oxygen bottle. Get a transfilling hose, they won't sell you one, find one online www.wingsandwheels.com.
then simply fill from the welding bottle to your bottle.

**DO EDUCATE YOURSELF AS TO THE DANGERS OF WORKING WITH OXYGEN**
They are pretty basic rules but if not followed can be very dangerous.
Things like keep all the connections clean, Oxygen can react (explosively) with oils, grease and tape.
Fill Slowly so as not to generate excess heat.

Brian
 
We maintain 2 full sized O2 tanks at the glider club for pilots to refill their smaller aircraft bottles. It's standard O2 from the local Compressed Gas company. As others have posted O2 is O2.

I have used O2 on many soaring flights to 17,500MSL. I have a small tank to last a single pilot about 10 hrs using the Oximizer system with my own pressure regulator and flow meter. I also have a O2 pulse meter to check on how I am doing.

My normal powered flying is around 10,000MSL. This week I needed to go IFR in heavy smoke in Idaho. The IFR MEA was 12,000MSL. I checked and found my O2 level in the lower 90s and my pulse rate was up to the mid 90s. Understandable with the heavy smoke, you could smell the smoke and almost harsh enough to irritate the eyes.

After about 30 minutes I was in an area where the MEA came down to 10,000MSL. The smoke was less dense but still IFR with no horizon and no visible ground below.
 
If you decide to move oxygen around, absolutely follow the rules. An ag worker in my community tried to transfer oxygen with a used hydraulic hose. I won't go into graphic details except to say that it was a closed-casket funeral.
 
I used to use oxygen daily in my past life as a paramedic. Any compressed gas can be dangerous but if you're using the proper lines and being diligent and no reckless you'll be just fine. Before I got the P210 (P=Pressurized) I had an oxygen cylinder and 4 masks in the 206. I'd use them anytime my P02 got below 90 (96 is about normal for me). That could be as low at 8,000 ft on one occasion.

To refill, I got 2 large welders tanks on an annual contract. You use one tank to NEARLY fill your portable, then the other tank to top it up to max. The reason for this is that is slows down the depletion from either of the large tanks so that their pressures each remain relatively high. Using a single refill tank won't get you as much as you think since you need the pressure in the large tank to be higher than the pressure in the portable in order for the oxygen to flow in that direction. With one fill tank, eventually the pressure will drop to the point where the most you'll be able to fill the portable is to something less than 100%.

I'm not sure if I explained that sufficiently but I'm sure it's covered in the sticky. Some people even use three tanks to main the fill pressure that much more. I'd say that's not necessary for private, occasional use.

We cover oxygen deprivation in episode 6 of season 3 when Kurtis' brilliance shows signs of crumbling. It's kinda funny... but not if he was in hard IMC at night! :)

Anthony
 
Doc Bruce has posted before about his setup with a big medical bottle, far bigger than a typical aviation one, that he uses in his Seneca, and about the gear to use it. That post should be a Sticky somewhere here. It has good info in it. Do a search it should show up.

I actually keep this in my inbox so I see it every day until I decide to go do it, this is not me it's from Doc Bruce:

Go to a welding shop or a medical supply shop and BUY outright the biggest Aluminum cylinder you can- a Super "D" or 50 cu. ft. Why? Because a fill of the smallest compared to the biggest runs the $13.00 up to $18.00. Getting the fill is the inconvenience.

Buy a stepdown regulator (welding type) for ~$40 and put it on top. Buy an 8 foot piece of 80 PSI hose and the appropriate CGA 540 fittings (or have the shop do it for you) and run from the end of the stepdown regulator to another CGA 540 fitting. At this end, buy a Skyox regulator and install it. The Skyox regulator is expensive ($200) but is a precision machined device that automatically doubles flow if two are plugged in, triples for three, etc. It doesn't leak and it's near bulletproof.

Now you have a tank strapped down in the baggage compartment, and complete control in between the PIC seats.

This way you have 1) huge O2 supply, = 30 man hours at 18,000 on cannulas e.g, more than you have fuel, and on some trips you will be able to make the return w/o a refill.

Fill it at your local welding shop. Yes, I know all about ABO, but they all come from the same 25,000 gallon tank. Even medical oxygen, too.

I also carry a 19 cu ft. steel tank that is labeled "ABO" for that emergency refill at an FBO. I use it when I have six on board (The Skyox has four ports). Total cost will be about $300. And, I spend ALL my time in the oxygen altitudes.

I agree with the advice to buy a pulse oximeter. It's the cheapest monitor for the only master processor w/o a backup device- your head. There's nothing from King or Garmin near the price...well, maybe a blind encoder.
 
What does everyone consider the oxygen altitudes? 13k in the 150 without a problem last month.
 
425 liter bottle? Huh? Oh well, someone just came up with a new standard there. Typically when bottles are measured in Liters it is at 1Bar which is basically the same as how much water it will hold. When they are rated in Cubic Feet that is at the stamped pressure.

Remember this, if the pressure the bottle is rated at is above 1750psi (121bar) you will never see the advertised volume filled at an FBO that does not have a Haskell or similar boost pump which I have never seen at an FBO, same for most commercial gas suppliers. Your technical dive shops that do Tri Mix fills will usually have boost pumps.
 
Ya should have waved as you went over....;)..

I have a plane that crashed sitting in my yard I helped salvage from the forest, a "less then fortunate" couple of guys that were headed to OSH a few weeks ago that tried to cross Togwotee pass...:sad::sad:
 

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I think I spent about $120 or so for a new medical o2 tank on eBay, carrying case, plus a pediatric regulator, o2 conserving canulas, and a pulse oximeter. I got a prescription for o2 from my AME, a local medical supply shop fills my bottle for about $10 or so. They will also rent tanks for the same price, so it sounds like I didn't even need to buy.

The pediatric regulator is nice because I can fine tune the flow rate very precisely to help conserve o2 when solo. It still has a high enough flow rate for two or three people.
 
I would definitely recommend either the Precise Flight or Mountain High conserving regulators if you're serious about it. It really extends the bottle time. I've got the Precise Flight, but it's really a coin flip at this point as to which product (the original MH units lacked a couple of features that they subsequently added).
 
Ya should have waved as you went over....;)..

I have a plane that crashed sitting in my yard I helped salvage from the forest, a "less then fortunate" couple of guys that were headed to OSH a few weeks ago that tried to cross Togwotee pass...:sad::sad:

Beautiful country out there, sad to hear that those guys didn't make it through. Do you have a link to the ntsb report? I couldn't blow the pictures up.
 
Ya should have waved as you went over....;)..

I have a plane that crashed sitting in my yard I helped salvage from the forest, a "less then fortunate" couple of guys that were headed to OSH a few weeks ago that tried to cross Togwotee pass...:sad::sad:

Very sad Ben.

David
 
Beautiful country out there, sad to hear that those guys didn't make it through. Do you have a link to the ntsb report? I couldn't blow the pictures up.

Here is the article... N780AX

http://kathrynaviationnews.com/?p=71125

Funny. It didn't show up in the NTSB files though ?????

It didn't kill them, but beat them up pretty darn good though...

I don't know how to post bigger pics but if you click on the ones I posted they do enlarge a bit....

The most interesting thing is the BMW 6 cylinder motor in a plane.. Never seen one before....

They hit so hard they didn't just bend the landing gears.. They ripped them right off the fuselage.:hairraise::eek:
 

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Ya should have waved as you went over....;)..

I have a plane that crashed sitting in my yard I helped salvage from the forest, a "less then fortunate" couple of guys that were headed to OSH a few weeks ago that tried to cross Togwotee pass...:sad::sad:

The owner hasn't made arrangements for that bird yet? Looks like it needs little bondo and it's ready to fly!

I'm sure the for hire pilot is waiting to finish the trip for the owner! He may still be stranded in Oshkosh at the seaplane base:rolleyes:
 
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