Ownership Question, part #45.

[mtuomi]

So. Buying a plane. Not a member of BT, and not going to slag off the brokers

What if I had a one-time-only mission, that would be impossible to accomplish without your own plane.

Lets say, Florida-LA-NYC. One way. On a C150/152. Also, doing my IR in some part of the way. I would have a few months to do all of it. Purchase price would be cheap, and worst case scenario, I could sell it for scrap mid-trip if so needs to be.

What sort of ownership costs would owning a plane for around a month be like? Insurance is around $600 I have a quote for that (just under 200hrs, complex/high performance, no IR), what other costs are there?

It would not be the end of the world if I couldn't sell the plane right away, there would be no finance costs, and if I end up owning the plane 2 years later, well, that would make me even happier.

I guess the question I am asking is, what sort of risk is there, if I know I'll be doing 60-70 hours in a few months. On fuel cost alone, I would save 40-50USD per hour to a rental. If there would be no mech issues, there could be good savings to be had. If the plane would have to be scrapped, it still would be worth some $k's so then I would be out of pocket, but how much would a scrap 150 be worth?

If I made no sense, let me know and I'll try to rephrase this

 

[mrkbbd]

So. Buying a plane. Not a member of BT, and not going to slag off the brokers

What if I had a one-time-only mission, that would be impossible to accomplish without your own plane.

Lets say, Florida-LA-NYC. One way. On a C150/152. Also, doing my IR in some part of the way. I would have a few months to do all of it. Purchase price would be cheap, and worst case scenario, I could sell it for scrap mid-trip if so needs to be.

What sort of ownership costs would owning a plane for around a month be like? Insurance is around $600 I have a quote for that (just under 200hrs, complex/high performance, no IR), what other costs are there?

It would not be the end of the world if I couldn't sell the plane right away, there would be no finance costs, and if I end up owning the plane 2 years later, well, that would make me even happier.

I guess the question I am asking is, what sort of risk is there, if I know I'll be doing 60-70 hours in a few months. On fuel cost alone, I would save 40-50USD per hour to a rental. If there would be no mech issues, there could be good savings to be had. If the plane would have to be scrapped, it still would be worth some $k's so then I would be out of pocket, but how much would a scrap 150 be worth?

If I made no sense, let me know and I'll try to rephrase this

scrap 150 = sum of its parts, the motor probably 2-3k if run out, avionics unless newer not much, prop if in good condition maybe $1,500...you could probably get around 5-7k for a run out one with ok avionics and no damage

 

[MAKG1]

It sounds like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like the idea of IFR in a 152.

I've never even seen one that has all the required equipment, and these days, it's hard to do IFR with no GPS.

 

[James331]

You could just rent a plane for that.

Seems like a silly reason to buy a plane.

 

[mtuomi]

You could just rent a plane for that.

Seems like a silly reason to buy a plane.

Could you refer me to a place, who would rent me a plane for a few months on a one-way itinerary, with no real schedule. And where I could choose my own CFI to give me training in too?

 

[Ghery]

It sounds like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like the idea of IFR in a 152.

I've never even seen one that has all the required equipment, and these days, it's hard to do IFR with no GPS.

?? Has something changed that I've missed? Only one of the 4 planes I have access to has GPS and I don't mind flying IFR in any of them, at least not for that reason.

 

[mtuomi]

It sounds like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like the idea of IFR in a 152.

I've never even seen one that has all the required equipment, and these days, it's hard to do IFR with no GPS.

True. Somehow I feel that I "should" (dont ask why I feel this way) learn IFR in something as basic as ever possible. When I learn to fly IFR with the minimum equipment possible, adding more is easy.

I've got plenty of G430 etc time, and I'd rather do my IR training the "old school" way. Happy to hear arguments why this isn't smart though!

 

[James331]

Could you refer me to a place, who would rent me a plane for a few months on a one-way itinerary, with no real schedule. And where I could choose my own CFI to give me training in too?

Most any flight school, you'll of cores have to cover the air fair for one of their CFIs to bring the plane back.

Call around.

Money talks.

 

[mtuomi]

Most any flight school, you'll of cores have to cover the air fair for one of their CFIs to bring the plane back.

Call around.

Money talks.

Fair enough. I've tried. Not going to happen. Answers vary from not answering at all to "yeah, right".

Even better when you try to email flight schools. Less than 1 in 50 actually answer your emails.

 

[James331]

I was part of a cross the country and back trip in a rental once.

Best to go face to face, and explain it with a very through plan.

Also how much time you have could be a factor, CPL and IFR would be a good starting point.

 

[mtuomi]

I was part of a cross the country and back trip in a rental once.

Best to go face to face, and explain it with a very through plan.

Also how much time you have could be a factor, CPL and IFR would be a good starting point.

I have enough hours for anyone to consider renting a 150/152 to me.
We're still missing the point here.

If I fly 50 hours, I would save around $2-3k in direct operating costs compared to renting.

I would risk having to sell the plane for scrap.

If the plane costs $13k, and it had a scrap value of lets say $8k, would that not be a risk worth taking?

 

[MAKG1]

?? Has something changed that I've missed? Only one of the 4 planes I have access to has GPS and I don't mind flying IFR in any of them, at least not for that reason.

It is possible to fly IFR without a GPS. It is, however, rather difficult to land at an airport where all the approaches require GPS. These days, that seems common.

"T" airways are appearing more and more in crowded airspace. You can't use those without a GPS.

 

[James331]

I have enough hours for anyone to consider renting a 150/152 to me.
We're still missing the point here.

If I fly 50 hours, I would save around $2-3k in direct operating costs compared to renting.

I would risk having to sell the plane for scrap.

If the plane costs $13k, and it had a scrap value of lets say $8k, would that not be a risk worth taking?

With the " have enough hours for anyone to consider renting a 150/152 to me" comment I wouldn't rent to you.

Renting for pattern work and buzzing around is very different than flying across the country.

If you're planning on buying a plane that you would debate scrapping after 50hrs, that doesn't sound wise

You could buy a decent 150 for 18-20k which you could sell for about the same price after 50hrs. Better to buy a nice plane if you're doing this type of flying.

 

[mtuomi]

With the " have enough hours for anyone to consider renting a 150/152 to me" comment I wouldn't rent to you.

Renting for pattern work and buzzing around is very different than flying across the country.

If you're planning on buying a plane that you would debate scrapping after 50hrs, that doesn't sound wise

You could buy a decent 150 for 18-20k which you could sell for about the same price after 50hrs. Better to buy a nice plane if you're doing this type of flying.

I've done complex high-perf cross country flying in over 10 countries. A buzz around the US in a 150 with no schedule is a walk in the park.

Anyway. Now we're talking.
I'm not planning to buy a plane, then scrapping it. I'm talking about buying a plane and hoping to sell it, but willing to take the risk that I have to scrap it.

Ideally, I would buy a nice plane, fly around for 50 hours, and then sell it for not much less than what I paid for. That would be a considerable saving over a short stint like this.

I was wondering, what other costs are involved in the sales process. What are the FAA fees, and so on.

I'm trying to calculate the possible gains (availability, cheap gas and so on) and compare them to the risks (possible serious tech issues, heavy registration fees etc).

So, if I would save $40 per hour in direct operating costs, how much the indirect costs would be. That way I would have more numbers to crunch to figure out, if the risks are higher than the savings.

 

[Ghery]

It is possible to fly IFR without a GPS. It is, however, rather difficult to land at an airport where all the approaches require GPS. These days, that seems common.

"T" airways are appearing more and more in crowded airspace. You can't use those without a GPS.

True, but that's not a problem I've had yet.

 

[James331]

True, but that's not a problem I've had yet.

Same here

I've done complex high-perf cross country flying in over 10 countries. A buzz around the US in a 150 with no schedule is a walk in the park.

Anyway. Now we're talking.
I'm not planning to buy a plane, then scrapping it. I'm talking about buying a plane and hoping to sell it, but willing to take the risk that I have to scrap it.

Ideally, I would buy a nice plane, fly around for 50 hours, and then sell it for not much less than what I paid for. That would be a considerable saving over a short stint like this.

I was wondering, what other costs are involved in the sales process. What are the FAA fees, and so on.

I'm trying to calculate the possible gains (availability, cheap gas and so on) and compare them to the risks (possible serious tech issues, heavy registration fees etc).

So, if I would save $40 per hour in direct operating costs, how much the indirect costs would be. That way I would have more numbers to crunch to figure out, if the risks are higher than the savings.

Well there is aloft of weather, mountains, lowlands, deserts and winter like areas in this country, some folks don't quite understand the size of the US and the varying flight conditions. I'd loose the cockey attitude, flying high altitude fast mover across the country is a very diffrent mission than low and slow in a underpowered cessna. I'd advise you pay it the respect it deserves.

As for the fees, 5 bucks for registration, FAA doesn't tax the plane that's between you, the seller, and whatever state you buy in/reside in.

 

[coloradobluesky]

It is impossible to tell how much it would cost you. If you bought low and sold high (how good a negotiator are you?) then you might come out cheaper than renting. For roundball estimate I would go with the rental fee of a 152 multiplied by your hours flown. Should give you some idea. One thing, depending on the state you may have to pay sales tax on the purchase so consider that. I agree, its nigh impossible to rent a plane for a trip like that. Maybe somewhere, but most wouldn't.

 

[JasonM]

Safety issues aside. If you are seriously contemplating flying an airplane that could have the remote possibility of becoming scrap; across the country and saving money; you best have some serious luck on your side.

Stuff will go wrong in those XC hours. I guarantee it. It will either happen right away and you will not deem it scrap worthy yet and be out more money or it will happen along the way and you will be stuck somewhere and what will you do then?

I wish you the best of luck though. I have been through this with newer aircraft flying across the country. Would not even imagine this in something remotely scrap worthy.

 

[MAKG1]

True, but that's not a problem I've had yet.

Well, at my home airport, there are two approaches -- one GPS and one VOR.

I hear the GPS approach being used all the time, as it skirts around Class C through some fairly empty airspace.

I've never ever EVER EVER heard anyone inbound on the VOR approach as it requires you holding directly over SJC (which has a "loop" departure that overflies the airport). Either you arrive at SJC VOR thousands of feet above the IAF altitude and in the way of SFO traffic (due to MEAs on the local airways) or you need to reverse direction. Local lore is that you'll get held before the IAF until the cows come home. Now, that may be BS, but no one ever goes through there.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Sounds like a reasonable mission to me, provided proper care is taken.

I guess my biggest question would be, if you can't sell it right away, where are you going to keep it, and what will be the cost of that? I've faced that issue a couple of times, and the cost of keeping an airplane that I don't necessarily want would be a little much for my blood.

As far as doing the instrument training, there are certainly 150/152s out there that are legal for IFR and would meet the requirements for your trip as well as those of training and testing. I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice by training and testing without GPS in this day and age, however. Yes, you can learn it at a later date. Many of us did. But working with a knowledgeable CFI during your instrument training is going to be far more effective.

David

 

[G-Man]

Your mission/adventure sounds really cool.
But I would encourage you to review your math in terms of "saving $2-3K versus renting in 50 hours."

I don't think rental C152s are earning the $50 hourly gross profit I get from your numbers. I think it's more like $10, maybe $20 hourly. (In my area.)

I think you may be counting as savings all the deferred maintenance that rentals include. But, if you keep the plane, you'll eventually have to do that maintenance. Or, its value will drop from needing things. And, yes, indeed, things will go wrong during your flight.

That said, it probably won't be easy to find a plan to rent for this mission.

 

[Bill Watson]

I like it. If you aren't on a schedule, flying across and around the country is a great and very doable adventure. Pick your season carefully though.

The biggest fixed costs that aren't recoverable are sales taxes and insurance.

If you low-end it with a 150-52, self insure or just carry liability.

If you can go more upscale with a nice 172, you might have a better chance of offloading it at market price after your 50 hours. Since getting your IR is part of the mission I'd get something with a 430W. That's today's environment and it would be ashamed to not train in it. You don't want or need an AP - that will make it old school enough.

 

[mtuomi]

Your mission/adventure sounds really cool.
But I would encourage you to review your math in terms of "saving $2-3K versus renting in 50 hours."

I don't think rental C152s are earning the $50 hourly gross profit I get from your numbers. I think it's more like $10, maybe $20 hourly. (In my area.)

I think you may be counting as savings all the deferred maintenance that rentals include. But, if you keep the plane, you'll eventually have to do that maintenance. Or, its value will drop from needing things. And, yes, indeed, things will go wrong during your flight.

That said, it probably won't be easy to find a plan to rent for this mission.

I'm only talking about direct operating costs, deferring all maintenance issues.

If I have to do that maintenance, that would be the risk realized. But if need to be, I can do that. Then this mission would have cost me more than renting. That's part of the game

Do things really go wrong during the flight? That puts out a very negative outlook for GA reliability. Less than 50 hours between failures?

If it's a vacuum pump, or a plug, this still would be cheap. If its something more serious, then it's more expensive. I guess what I'm trying to say is, that I really would like to do this flight. I have the means to do it. But what if the engine blows up. What value does a 150 have, with an engine in 5 pieces. Is it 5000? or 10000?

I would not self insure or do third-party only. Risk of total hull loss is too high. The biggest risk I can think of is an engine failure, which would leave me with an airframe and thats it. How much is one worth?

If I buy an airworthy 150 for 12k, and the airframe is worth 8k, then the risk I have is 4k. Flying around a month, with potential savings of around 50/hour, I think it is worth it given the small chance of that risk becoming reality. But if the airframe is worth 2000, the risk is 10k and I'm not sure if its worth that anymore.

Hope this makes any sense.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Using a 150 for IFR training vs. depending upon it, or any single engine single pilot situation, for flying actual are two entirely different kettles of fish.

As far as the risk(financial risk) goes, if the 150 has a properly cared for O200, below the 3,000 hour or so level, I think that the chance of it blowing an engine is not ridiculously high. Statistics show these engines to be less likely to let go at the 2,500 hour point than at the 50 hour point.

That said, I would want to know that it has had frequent oil changes, good compression and most importantly, not making metal. If I were to buy the plane for such a mission, I would change oil and filter, fly it five or ten hours and change it again. I would want to see no traces of metal WHATSOEVER in the filter at that point before starting the trip.

 

[MBDiagMan]

?? Has something changed that I've missed? Only one of the 4 planes I have access to has GPS and I don't mind flying IFR in any of them, at least not for that reason.

Yeah, I had the same thought. Did they kill all of the LOC, ILS & VOR procedures everywhere all of a sudden and ithasntshown up in my Foreflight yet?