owner-assisted maintence?

Relationship relationship relationship.

my guy has come to see how meticulous I am and has told me now several times “you can handle that, I’ll supervise ya”

that didn’t come at first, but when he saw the owner maintence I did and was impressed he’s growing to trust me, and show me what lessons I need and such.

it all starts with a relationship
 
Huckster79 said:
Relationship relationship relationship.

my guy has come to see how meticulous I am and has told me now several times “you can handle that, I’ll supervise ya”

that didn’t come at first, but when he saw the owner maintence I did and was impressed he’s growing to trust me, and show me what lessons I need and such.

it all starts with a relationship
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that also means all work I’m not going to do goes to him- that’s my end of the relationship
 
At the airport I am based at, the local FBO based maintenance shop will not let you do “owner assist”. That said,if I remove all the wheel pants, sump covers, inspection panels, and seats in my hangar, they will,come over and tow the plane over, and knock a couple 100 bucks off the annual cost. Of course, I get to put it all back together which takes a hell of a lot more time. Usually 2 to 1 in terms of hours.
 
I remember seeing a sign like this in a auto shop.....


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There’s the spectrum o consider, factoring in one’s mechanical ability. I tread more carefully if contemplating ‘safety of flight’ type endeavors. Of course things not related to safety can still cause a problem, say you didn’t tighten that oil filter.

Anyway, the easy stuff 1st, then work up a bit.
 
Rcmutz said:
At the airport I am based at, the local FBO based maintenance shop will not let you do “owner assist”. That said,if I remove all the wheel pants, sump covers, inspection panels, and seats in my hangar, they will,come over and tow the plane over, and knock a couple 100 bucks off the annual cost. Of course, I get to put it all back together which takes a hell of a lot more time. Usually 2 to 1 in terms of hours.
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You could also service the wheel bearings and grease all the fittings. This is defined by the FAA as "preventative maintenance." You would save some coin there too. On the other hand, this too is a time investment.
 
Rcmutz said:
At the airport I am based at, the local FBO based maintenance shop will not let you do “owner assist”. That said,if I remove all the wheel pants, sump covers, inspection panels, and seats in my hangar, they will,come over and tow the plane over, and knock a couple 100 bucks off the annual cost. Of course, I get to put it all back together which takes a hell of a lot more time. Usually 2 to 1 in terms of hours.
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I minimally deliver mine for maintenance cowl free... I want to put the cowl on afterward giving everything a good look over....
 
Guess I will weigh in here. I always encouraged the owner to be a part of the maintenance process. That was generally good. I did have several owners who decided to do things on their own, and then suggested that I had been involved in something that was botched. It's really a liability issue, not only from a legal standpoint, but also from a reputation standpoint. Then there is the time issue. It takes more time (and thus money) to show someone how to do something, instead of doing it yourself. As said, the relationship can really mean a lot with owner assisted maintenance. It's just a difficult tight rope to walk for the maintenance people.
 
Oldmanb777 said:
Guess I will weigh in here. I always encouraged the owner to be a part of the maintenance process. That was generally good. I did have several owners who decided to do things on their own, and then suggested that I had been involved in something that was botched. It's really a liability issue, not only from a legal standpoint, but also from a reputation standpoint. Then there is the time issue. It takes more time (and thus money) to show someone how to do something, instead of doing it yourself. As said, the relationship can really mean a lot with owner assisted maintenance. It's just a difficult tight rope to walk for the maintenance people.
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When doing owner-assisted maintenance, do you charge by the hour, or by the job?
 
Both. The inspection, the paper work, looking up AD's and such are all in the job price. I always included the "normal" maintenance stuff like changing the oil, swing the gear, lube the stuff that gets lubed. I liked to return the plane clean, so often would include that in the base price. You can look at the maintenance manual checklist for say 100 hr insp, and be pretty confidant of the time it will take to do all those things. Then make a squawk list of things that will be addressed, and those things will be hourly.
So hourly for things like replace an ign harness, or replace an engine baffle, or fix a wire etc. When I worked for FBO's it was usually only by the hour. The FBO's always wanted to include every rag, or inch of safety wire that was used. I tried to include all that in the base price. Sometimes owners wanted that broken out, sometimes not.
I have not worked (for a living) under my License for years. I only help people I have known for many years with their airplanes now. In most cases, i have known the airplane for a long time as well. Over time, there has been less and less that I am willing to do. Lots of reasons for that. So I have not been for hire for a long time.
 
Seems like airplane maintenance instruction should be something that an A&P ought to charge for. I wouldn't expect that to be free. I see owner-assisted as different though, such as when you deliver the airplane with the cowl and all the inspection panels off.
 
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MacFly said:
I see owner-assisted as different though
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FWIW: Owner-assisted comes in many flavors. In my group of clients, each agreement was different. It ranged from your example where they did their work under their certificate without my input to where they did all the work under my certificate. And all points in between. But instruction was included in all cases as was their commitment to learn as well. However, if their intent was just to save a few nickels and not become a more engaged owner our arrangement usually didn't last long as they had a tendency push their end into my work scope with the expectation I would finish their work and reduce the bill.
 
^^^^ well said. Again its about the relationship and what the owner is looking for.
You would be amazed at what people think should be free. I guess I could be guilty with some of that as well.
 
Really quite astonished that no one mentioned logging ALL Of the time that you are

involved with aircraft maintenance.

I have always advised my students to do so regardless of where you THINK

life will take you.

There are folks that got the A & P because they realized they would has problems

finding a Tech that knew as much as they did.

CFR/FAR 65.77 will give more info.

DON’T listen to those that say ; “All you need is a letter”.

Do in any format .

N Number, task , hours.

Ideally you would have your A &P sign all items.

YOU write and have tech sign/ initial periodically.

Another caveat is if you are working with someone for experience

is keep your log updated often.

There are folks that worked a long time only to be told

some BS reason why the time would not be verified.

Can you log wash, wax and oil changes?

Refer to first sentence regarding “ALL”.

Researching ADs , SBs, parts research and ordering?

Again included in ALL.

It is a long journey but if you are involved with Maintenance you will be surprised

how the hours accumulate.

I’ve also talked with people that did repairs but never logged it then.

Now the A & P is no longer with us.

Logging Time is the single biggest task in getting the ticket.

Don’t regret not logging the time.

If you paid your dues you deserve the reward.
 
Magman said:
Really quite astonished that no one mentioned logging ALL Of the time that you are

involved with aircraft maintenance.


Ideally you would have your A &P sign all items.

YOU write and have tech sign/ initial periodically.
.
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Everything I've done with my A&P so far, he's been the one to print the sticker and sign off. I'm in the middle of an EFIS change that I'm doing....I'll sign that one.
 
Magman said:
Really quite astonished that no one mentioned logging ALL Of the time that you are involved with aircraft maintenance.
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Magman said:
Logging Time is the single biggest task in getting the ticket.
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Agree. And while obtaining an A&P is still possible through this route outside working at a CRS/FBO its unfortunately become very subjective to the local ASI how they will accept that experience toward getting the 3 AP test authorizations. I've always recommended to contact the local FSDO to find how they want to see that maintenance experience documented as some ASIs follow the 8900.1 verbatim while others tend to take a more interested look provided enough information is there for them to make a decision.

For anyone interested: https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v05%20airman%20cert/chapter%2005/05_005_002rev1.htm
 
Like Bell stated “ Satisfactory to the Administrator” can be very subjective.

One of the issues is that the ASI that offered the “opinion” may have transferred

or retired by the time sufficient hours are logged.

Pix, paychecks, certs , DD214, MIL Training Files can all be part of your package.

Let the Judge from the fiefdom say “Disregard that!”

Having too much documentation is usually not a bad thing,

“Don’t take a knife to a gunfight”.
 
Bell206 said:
FWIW: Owner-assisted comes in many flavors. In my group of clients, each agreement was different. It ranged from your example where they did their work under their certificate without my input to where they did all the work under my certificate. And all points in between. But instruction was included in all cases as was their commitment to learn as well. However, if their intent was just to save a few nickels and not become a more engaged owner our arrangement usually didn't last long as they had a tendency push their end into my work scope with the expectation I would finish their work and reduce the bill.
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Yea my biggest driver is just to know my bird the best I can. Sure save a buck on some things- like I did my baffold seal as my guy really didnt want to do it.. and he said “your going to see the bill and think I’m a their- it’s hours of labor to get just so”. And it was something I wanted perfect and not just ok- and it took forever even on a simple old plane but it’s tighter now than a virg.... well can’t say that I suppose ;). But it’s tight. But when my guy raised his base annual rate some of my buddies started looking around- I never even questioned changing... :)
 
Huckster79 said:
But when my guy raised his base annual rate some of my buddies started looking around- I never even questioned changing... :)
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Funny.... I doubled my rates, and half of the guys quit. but that's OK
 
I have worked with owners that knew so much more than I did. Almost embarrassing, until you come to grips with the knowledge that no matter how much you know about aviation, you don't know squat! I love working with the owner who knows more about his/her plane than I do. Makes for a great and productive time.
 
Tom-D said:
Funny.... I doubled my rates, and half of the guys quit. but that's OK
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good for you!!! Half the work and same pay

my barber did that... 15 years or so ago he wanted to semi retire and still make money... so he kept raising his price till he was down to 2 days a week making what he’d made before!
 
Huckster79 said:
I never even questioned changing...
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One of the reasons I moved toward owner-assisted vs ad hoc was a number of owners beached about my rates but would gladly pay double/triple to have the same type work performed at the dealer on their vehicle. However, since I had a day job I could afford to let customers walk whereas the one man shop guys had to put up with that bs. Interestingly it appears those nickle/dime owners are becoming caught between a rock and a hard place as the one man shops close down and the independent APs are retiring leaving those owners only 2 options: top shelf $$$ FBOs/CRS or bottom dollar 20 minute... I mean, 15 minute Annual inspection wonders.;)
 
^^^^ that rings true. Had clients that the boat and motorhome sat in the hanger, while the Bonanza sat outside in the rain. Their checks bounced (both were oral surgeons). they complained about nickel and dime stuff. One of the many reasons I quit taking on any new airplane owners. That was a long time ago, doesn't seem like it, guess the distaste still lingers.
 
Bell206 said:
One of the reasons I moved toward owner-assisted vs ad hoc was a number of owners beached about my rates but would gladly pay double/triple to have the same type work performed at the dealer on their vehicle. However, since I had a day job I could afford to let customers walk whereas the one man shop guys had to put up with that bs. Interestingly it appears those nickle/dime owners are becoming caught between a rock and a hard place as the one man shops close down and the independent APs are retiring leaving those owners only 2 options: top shelf $$$ FBOs/CRS or bottom dollar 20 minute... I mean, 15 minute Annual inspection wonders.;)
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exactly. Supporting my local, one IA and one A&P as his understudy shop, is I feel it’s important! Beyond the $200 increase...

I guess though I come from an entire family of ma and pa businesses so I do see things a bit different.

It is interesting my guy will supervise some projects for me but doesn’t allow a full on owner assist annual. Though he doesn’t mind all the pop ins in the world throughout, and though I’m bummed about it- I respect it. The amount I’ve learned that he’s willing to share, just in our BS chats over a cup of coffee is worth my loyalty.

I can’t imagine maintaining my 73 yr old bird at a “big city” shop, and that’s not to say him or I are lax in our care... but it just wouldn’t be the same...
 
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Oldmanb777 said:
I have worked with owners that knew so much more than I did. Almost embarrassing, until you come to grips with the knowledge that no matter how much you know about aviation, you don't know squat! I love working with the owner who knows more about his/her plane than I do. Makes for a great and productive time.
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i love folks like you, where another’s knowledge is never viewed as a threat but as an opportunity to learn...

Iv found the most knowledgeable folks feel they know little and have much more to learn and the ones that know everything about everything don’t really know squat!
 
Huckster79 said:
Supporting my local, one IA and one A&P as his understudy shop, is I feel it’s important! Beyond the $200 increase...

I can’t imagine maintaining my 73 yr old bird at a “big city” shop, and that’s not to say him or I are lax in our care... but it just wouldn’t be the same...
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The A&P/IA on our field isn't exactly a "big city shop" but he's always busy, has an excellent reputation, and has prices to match. A bunch of us guys with older (cheaper)l planes use an itinerant A&P/IA who lives in another state and travels around New England in a van full of tools. Typically he'll schedule several annuals, stay around for a few days, then he's off to somewhere else. He only works with aircraft owners who do their own work, he enjoys teaching and expects the owner to do all the grunt work.
 
Dana said:
The A&P/IA on our field isn't exactly a "big city shop" but he's always busy, has an excellent reputation, and has prices to match. A bunch of us guys with older (cheaper)l planes use an itinerant A&P/IA who lives in another state and travels around New England in a van full of tools. Typically he'll schedule several annuals, stay around for a few days, then he's off to somewhere else. He only works with aircraft owners who do their own work, he enjoys teaching and expects the owner to do all the grunt work.
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that sounds like a cool set up too.

my guy was super reasonable before so doesn’t seem too bad. Guess that’s part of the relationship is one side shouldn’t be abusively cheap and the other side shouldn’t be abusively expensive...
 
Some years ago I met “ Famous Frank”.

Said he did about 400 Annuals per year.

His full time job with an airline allowed to to travel.

Anyone ever meet him?
 
Huckster79 said:
It is interesting my guy will supervise some projects for me but doesn’t allow a full on owner assist annual.
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FYI: Do you physically drag your aircraft to him for all your maintenance? In my experience, one of the biggest hurdles for smaller shops and owner-assisted annuals is space and time. Having an owner project in the midst of your regular work tends to throw the work rhythm off and delay other work. Perhaps look into performing the annual in your hangar or if not possible in a different hangar and make a pitch to your APIA to owner-assist in that hangar. Sweeten the deal that you're flexible on the time frame it takes to complete the inspection, you'll do the grunt work yourself, etc.

For example, we worked out a few deals where the owner would clean/disassemble the aircraft under my supervision in his hangar; once done the IA would come by on one of his off days and inspect, check ADs, etc; owner would reassemble; IA would return for the final ground runs and sign the book. In other cases where the airport commission didn't allow any mx in the "storage" hangars, the owner would rent a mx bay if available or went to other location and did the annual assist with the same IA. Sometimes if you get creative enough you can work out a deal where both you and the IA make out.
 
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