Owner assisted annual

frfly172

frfly172

Touchdown! Greaser!
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ron keating
Thinking of doing an owner assisted annual this year in Florida.hoping to learn more about my aircraft.any pros or cons appreciated Thanks Ron
 
frfly172 said:
Thinking of doing an owner assisted annual this year in Florida.hoping to learn more about my aircraft.any pros or cons appreciated Thanks Ron
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Make/model? Is your inspector at your home base?

BTW, I find just reading the description & operation sections at the beginning of each chapter (of the maintenance manuals) very informative. With the corporate jets its almost a "must read" before working any system.
 
My mechanic always said she didn't charge extra for the owner helping. My wife who was a school teacher at the time used to go over to the shop as soon as classes were out and help out to get the backlog ahead of us done and then get our plane ready. She's a whiz at getting access covers off, removing stuck screws, and repacking wheel bearings.

The mechanic divides her customers into owners who will turn a wrench on their plane and "Just pilots." We were eating pizza for lunch in the office one day and a guy came in and said the he was having a problem with the battery on the plane. She told him to bring it in and she'd test it. The guy looked at her dumb. "Oh yes, I forgot, you're just a pilot. Ron, go help him get his battery out."
 
Yes, yes, yes! Do it. You will learn more about the aircraft than you ever thought possible and you will be able to articulate what is wrong in the future.
 
It's a great idea for you, but not all mechanics are happy to have owners in their work space like that, and most larger shops' insurance prohibits non-employees in the shop. So, talk to the mechanic about it and be prepared to have to go to another mechanic and/or a smaller shop to do it.
 
frfly172 said:
Thinking of doing an owner assisted annual this year in Florida.hoping to learn more about my aircraft.any pros or cons appreciated Thanks Ron
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That is what we do the most of at our shop and when we travel to owners facility. I believe in it, and I think its a great Idea. First and foremost; find mechs that want to do these. They need to have the heart of a teacher so you can actually learn and do, and not just feel like you are in the way. If you ask and they say "no" don't get offended as some places just don't like dealing with the customers because you never know what you are going to get. But find a place that will let you do it. Good luck

Pros- Learn more
Maybe save some money
have fun
make some new friends
come away with a better understanding
Cons- well you might get dirty (thats about it)
 
I spent over a week last year working with an out of state shop on my Sierra, helping to perform all sorts of maintenance on it. It was exhausting, expensive and very educational; no regrets.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's a great idea for you, but not all mechanics are happy to have owners in their work space like that, and most larger shops' insurance prohibits non-employees in the shop. So, talk to the mechanic about it and be prepared to have to go to another mechanic and/or a smaller shop to do it.
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Ron:

I have read, literally, thousands of commercial liability insurance policies, and have never, ever seen a provision such as you have described.

"Insurance" is commonly-cited excuse for excluding people from certain premises, but it is almost always mere pretext.
 
SCCutler said:
Ron:

I have read, literally, thousands of commercial liability insurance policies, and have never, ever seen a provision such as you have described.

"Insurance" is commonly-cited excuse for excluding people from certain premises, but it is almost always mere pretext.
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It may be a pretext, but it's what they tell customers who want to do this and what it says on the signs by the entrance to the shop. In any event, regardless of the real reason, if they don't want this, you'll have to find another shop.
 
Ron Levy said:
It may be a pretext, but it's what they tell customers who want to do this and what it says on the signs by the entrance to the shop. In any event, regardless of the real reason, if they don't want this, you'll have to find another shop.
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Quite true.

I have known some shops that simply said, "We do not allow non-employees into the shop," which is honest and straightforward.
 
Have you ever noticed that they are more than willing to take a customer into the shop to show him the cracked case on his engine that will generate a $12,000 invoice?

Ron Levy said:
It may be a pretext, but it's what they tell customers who want to do this and what it says on the signs by the entrance to the shop. In any event, regardless of the real reason, if they don't want this, you'll have to find another shop.
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If I ever own an airplane again, I will only do owner-assisted annuals. For me, part of the fun of owning the airplane was working on it.
 
I remove the interior and open up all the access panels, then reassemble when given the OK to do so. Maybe a few odd jobs that require minimum skill.

While my mechanic encourages this, my number one goal is to stay out of his way.

Highly recommended.
 
Non Compos Mentis said:
I remove the interior and open up all the access panels, then reassemble when given the OK to do so. Maybe a few odd jobs that require minimum skill.

While my mechanic encourages this, my number one goal is to stay out of his way.

Highly recommended.
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Very important when the time comes, I have had owner assists cost more than had I been left alone
 
wabower said:
Have you ever noticed that they are more than willing to take a customer into the shop to show him the cracked case on his engine that will generate a $12,000 invoice?
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Escorting a customer in is one thing; letting a customer work on a plane in there is quite another. Further, if it's a certified repair station (as most larger shops are), a non-employee can't touch a tool to the plane anyway, and I think the process to become an certified employee of a repair station is more than any owner would be willing to do.
 
I challenge that most large GA shops are CSR's and know for a fact very few on this airport are so organized. In this market area a few of the jet shops are CSR's but our only such is a one-man operation that specializes in 411/413 work.

And your prior post didn't refer to working on planes it referred to an owner being permitted in the shop, which is easily achieved under either scenario.

Ron Levy said:
Escorting a customer in is one thing; letting a customer work on a plane in there is quite another. Further, if it's a certified repair station (as most larger shops are), a non-employee can't touch a tool to the plane anyway, and I think the process to become an certified employee of a repair station is more than any owner would be willing to do.
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We have nothing prohibiting non employees to work on planes despite being a CRS, only limit is on who may issue the return to service under the CRS' authority (me)
 
Just a thought on owner assisted annual. My mechanic has no issue with owner assisting but employees that work for him have a big issue with owners coming by and asking to borrow tools. Plan ahead and bring tools like screwdrivers, a wrench set and a socket set. I work with my mechanics shop on certain types of airplanes, I have a Craftsman tool kit that is in a plastic carrier, at one glance I can see if a tool is missing. Professional mechanics have thousands of thousands of dollars invested in their tools, they need them to make a living, try your best not to borrow.
 
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Buy a cheap engraver and personalize every tool in your bag. It's quick and easy to do and some shops require it.

Luvrv8 said:
Just a thought on owner assisted annual. My mechanic has no issue with owners but employees that work for him have a big issue with owners coming by and asking to borrow tools. Plan ahead and bring tools like screwdrivers, a wrench set and a socket set. I work with my mechanics shop on certain types of airplanes, I have a Craftsman tool kit that is in a plastic carrier, at one glance I can see if a tool is missing. Professional mechanics have thousands of thousands of dollars invested in their tools, they need them to make a living, try your best not to borrow.
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Luvrv8 said:
... a big issue with owners coming by and asking to borrow tools.
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Good point. I refuse to touch my mechanic's tools, even though he has offered to let me use them.

No worry ever getting them mixed up- If it says "Snap-On" it's his; "Craftsman", it's mine.
 
Non Compos Mentis said:
Good point. I refuse to touch my mechanic's tools, even though he has offered to let me use them.

No worry ever getting them mixed up- If it says "Snap-On" it's his; "Craftsman", it's mine.
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This is why my Snap On tools stay at home, they all have Snap On, no need to confuse anyone.
 
Ron Levy said:
Escorting a customer in is one thing; letting a customer work on a plane in there is quite another. Further, if it's a certified repair station (as most larger shops are), a non-employee can't touch a tool to the plane anyway, and I think the process to become an certified employee of a repair station is more than any owner would be willing to do.
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There are several reasons many shops don't want non employees on the shop floor.

They just get in the way of the employees.

Labor and industries do not cover non employees, you get hurt the money comes directly from the companies bottom line.

they don't want you looking over their shoulder, things happen when working on your aircraft that they do not want you to see.

Why do you believe the CRS is any different than regular A&P working in their hangar in this respect?
 
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they don't want you looking over their shoulder, things happen when working on your aircraft that they do not want you to see.
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Like forgetting to tighten the fuel lines or nuts on the engine mount bolts?
Yeah, I'll stick to mechanics with open door policies.
 
flyingron said:
Like forgetting to tighten the fuel lines or nuts on the engine mount bolts?
Yeah, I'll stick to mechanics with open door policies.
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I was thinking more about broken knuckles and cuss words.

how would you see some thing that wasn't done?
 
There's a level of situational awareness required when performing maintenance, just like when flying, and I don't like being interrupted when doing either. Especially if its unimportant nonsense and they are one of those that talk, talk, talk, talk, breath and talk more.
 
bnt83 said:
There's a level of situational awareness required when performing maintenance, just like when flying, and I don't like being interrupted when doing either. Especially if its unimportant nonsense and they are one of those that talk, talk, talk, talk, breath and talk more.
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My problem is, I'm on your clock, they want to yak. It got so bad with one guy that I told him that I was going to bill him for the time and consultant work, I've never seen him again.
 
Tom-D said:
My problem is, I'm on your clock, they want to yak. It got so bad with one guy that I told him that I was going to bill him for the time and consultant work, I've never seen him again.
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Even friends just stopping by the hangar. Stop, say hi, chat a bit and move on please.
 
Tom-D said:
There are several reasons many shops don't want non employees on the shop floor.

They just get in the way of the employees.

Labor and industries do not cover non employees, you get hurt the money comes directly from the companies bottom line.

they don't want you looking over their shoulder, things happen when working on your aircraft that they do not want you to see.

Why do you believe the CRS is any different than regular A&P working in their hangar in this respect?
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The main reason shops don't want non-employees on the shop floor is because it turns into a shoot the **** session with the mechanic and things don't get done.
 
And the reason some successful shops encourage it is because some of the best one-on-one communication takes place there. Just two guys working together on a common problem and looking for the best way to skin the cat.

Clip4 said:
The main reason shops don't want non-employees on the shop floor is because it turns into a shoot the **** session with the mechanic and things don't get done.
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wabower said:
And the reason some successful shops encourage it is because some of the best one-on-one communication takes place there. Just two guys working together on a common problem and looking for the best way to skin the cat.
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Or at least the most economical way.
 
My pre-purchase inspection was performed with me on site. The mechanic welcomed me and let me know that I could ask any questions but that he was bound to a time table and the more we talked the less he could check. I thought that was a fair way to state it and I did ask pertinent questions, but mostly he taught me as he went through the steps of the inspection. By the time lunch came around he was gaining confidence in that I could take care of some of the small tasks and actually help out. It turned out for me to be a great experience.

My first post purchase annual (different shop) was not the experience I wished to have. I was pretty much out of the loop except to go over the discrepancies over the phone. My airplane was down for a week and I felt just a little violated when I got the bill. Felt the same way when the same shop tried to charge me $250 for an oil change. I managed to get that reduced when I reminded the shop super that his mechanic spent almost an hour working on an APU for one of their jets. He reduced it to about $175. I change my own oil now.

I am actually looking forward to my next Annual in Sep/Oct with a shop that encourages owner assisted annuals. I feel it is a team effort to maintain my aircraft in good flying order and appreciate being a part of that team.
 
Skylane81E said:
We have nothing prohibiting non employees to work on planes despite being a CRS, only limit is on who may issue the return to service under the CRS' authority (me)
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You should review 14 CFR 145.151 and 145.163. While one supposes you could put the aircraft owner through the necessary training process and document that, the regulation does require that all persons doing work under authority of a CRS certificate be trained and certified on their tasks. Absent that, the work would have to be done outside their CRS certificate, and the party signing for the work would do so on his/her own A&P/IA certificate, not the shop's CRS certificate.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your FAA-approved manual allows you to sign off under your CRS certificate work performed by persons with no training or certification on the tasks they performed? I'd like to see that.
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Who says I am signing off anything done by untrained persons? I've only got one owner at this time who works on his own stuff with me but you will find his name in our training records, nothing wrong with a little OJT
 
Skylane81E said:
Who says I am signing off anything done by untrained persons? I've only got one owner at this time who works on his own stuff with me but you will find his name in our training records, nothing wrong with a little OJT
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That covers it -- essentially, an unpaid employee.
 
Ron Levy said:
That covers it -- essentially, an unpaid employee.
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So if an FBO trains a plane's owner to fly his own plane, does that make the owner an unpaid employee of the FBO?

No way.

Now replace the verb "fly" with "work on." How is the customer vs. employee status suddenly changed?
 
Ron Levy said:
Your FAA-approved manual allows you to sign off under your CRS certificate work performed by persons with no training or certification on the tasks they performed? I'd like to see that.
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I take it you have never sent ANYTHING out to have it plated, powdercoated, reupholsted etc, by a NON-aviation vendor

One that comes to mind, contracting out machining of aluminum plate into antenna shims and doublers.
 
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