Overloading Max Gross

N521MA

N521MA

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Feb 13, 2013
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FlyBoy
I am we'll aware what the W/B says and always comply within limits, however I have faced a situation where I had to say "we would not be able to go" and wanted to hear your HONEST opinion, not what the book says.....

You plan a flight with your friends to go somewhere, you asked everyone for their weight and baggage, night before you do the W/B and everything is almost at the limit but well balanced and within manufacture's limits.

Next morning all show up the field, you look at the winter jackets, and the guy in the middle definitely lied about his weight. Again, you harass everyone for their exact weight and do the W/B and realize you are over the limit by roughly 25-50lbs (since you don't carry scales in your plane, that is your best educated guesstimate).

You are already at minimum fuel required plus reserves, conditions are CAVU, NE winter temps, basically conditions are almost set for best performance and CG is well balanced. Only issue is that you somewhere (per your guesstimate) over max gross by 25-50lbs

Do you still go or cancel your flight?
 
And .... Considering your fuel burn of 10g per hour, you will be well within limit just within an hour of your 2.5 hour flight.
 
Your plane is probably already 25-50 lbs. heavier than what your W&B chart shows, unless it's been weighed recently. Planes gain weight with age, just like people.

Beyond that, ultimately you have to make the call as to what's legal, and more importantly, what's safe.
 
I suppose it would depend on the aircraft and duration of the flight. I'd imagine that some planes are better over gross than others. Long body Mooneys, for example, have over engineered landing gear and I've launched mine a couple times when slightly overweight without issues. The more important thing is that you don't land heavy... make sure you burn enough fuel to get below your max landing weight before putting it down.
 
Plane have been weighted few month ago so I do have actual weight.
 
I calculated the weight and balance for a recent flight for a weekend at hilton head. I told my passengers to please limit their bags for the weekend for 20 lbs.

My girlfriend shows up with a bag that weighed at least 35lbs. For a weekend...


I told her she had to re-pack, and that's what she did. Now, based on the actual weights of the other bags, we had room for a 35lb bag. I didn't mention this. Principles.

Hope she does not see this.
 
For me, there are four choices:
  • offload some gear to get the payload back down within limits
  • download fuel and make a fuel stop
  • someone doesn't go
  • nobody goes
The one thing we won't do is fly as is.

I do note the comment above about safe vs legal. In this case, there is no choice to make, since we don't have to violate the rules in order to remain safe. Only way I violate the rules is if safety would be compromised by following them (e.g., controller telling me to turn right into a big momma CB -- rules say I turn, safety says I don't, safety wins). In this case, no rule says you have to launch ("takeoffs are optional, only landings are mandatory").

Another example of that is the Swissair accident some years back, in which the crew of a MD-11 chose to stay in the air to dump fuel down to landing weight while an electrical fire was progressing rather than land immediately but overweight. They were overcome by smoke before they got down to landing weight, and everybody died. In that case, they should have traded the airframe for 200 lives rather than trying to stay within the aircraft's operating limits.

But this isn't such a case, so you can be both safe and legal by not flying.
 
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There is no question whether I will be within limits of max gross by the time I land, as will burn roughly 150 pounds of fuel, which in this case put me 100 below max gross. But taking off with potential 50 pounds over.

Plane PA 28 181 - plenty of power to pull.
 
N521MA said:
Plane PA 28 181 - plenty of power to pull.
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Have you flown your plane before loaded to absolute max gross? I bet its a dog.

I wouldn't fly a plane over max gross. Maybe in the Alaskan wilderness if I was by myself and needed to get something somewhere. But you owe it to your passengers not to do anything illegal or unsafe.
 
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Cut the distance in half and make a fuel stop. If anybody complains, blame the guy who lied.
 
dell30rb said:
Have you flown your plane before loaded to absolute max gross? I bet its a dog.
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I did and loved it. It was very stable on a windy day. Take off roll was just a bit longer, but it is something I chose; by having a bit of more Vr speed. Other then that - very nice ride.

Landing with 13kt cross wind was very smooth and stable. Actually liked it a lot more than when I fly solo.
 
Morne said:
Cut the distance in half and make a fuel stop. If anybody complains, blame the guy who lied.
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What if you are at tabs and less fuel is not an option. By the time you taxi out (about 15 mins Very busy airport), climb and 15 minutes into flight - most likely I already will be at limit. Question is really that first 15 minutes and obvious take off.....
 
N521MA said:
I am we'll aware what the W/B says and always comply within limits, however I have faced a situation where I had to say "we would not be able to go" and wanted to hear your HONEST opinion, not what the book says.....

You plan a flight with your friends to go somewhere, you asked everyone for their weight and baggage, night before you do the W/B and everything is almost at the limit but well balanced and within manufacture's limits.

Next morning all show up the field, you look at the winter jackets, and the guy in the middle definitely lied about his weight. Again, you harass everyone for their exact weight and do the W/B and realize you are over the limit by roughly 25-50lbs (since you don't carry scales in your plane, that is your best educated guesstimate).

You are already at minimum fuel required plus reserves, conditions are CAVU, NE winter temps, basically conditions are almost set for best performance and CG is well balanced. Only issue is that you somewhere (per your guesstimate) over max gross by 25-50lbs

Do you still go or cancel your flight?
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Depends a little bit on the airplane. A HP no problem. A Cherokee maybe in the winter but not if in the summer.
 
If you're overweight but within CG (and keep in mind those limits get narrower the heavier you are), you'll run into several potential issues:

1) Increased stall speed. In fact, most V-speeds at the low end (NOT Vno or Vne, which will decrease) will be increased by the square root of the ratio of the actual weight to the max gross weight.

2) Longer takeoff roll. Plenty of YouTube videos of overloaded planes going off the end of the runway and crashing on takeoff. The longer takeoff roll is due to the lower acceleration (increased weight, but not increased power) as well as the need to accelerate to a slightly higher speed (see #1).

3) Decreased climb rate. This will be more severe than you'd think - Climb is a function of excess horsepower. Even though you have 180 horsepower, loading to 5% over gross will cause a MUCH more than 5% reduction in climb rate. That's because it takes the majority of your engine power just to stay in the air - So, of your 180hp maybe only 40 of it is excess horsepower available for climb at gross, and that'll get eaten up quickly. This may not affect you too much in winter temps in the northeast, but if you get in the habit of doing it, you may get bitten in the summer.

4) Inability to climb with full flaps - That's the reason MGW is where it is on some airplanes. Could make for an impossible go-around.

5) Structural integrity. Some people say it's OK to go over gross because the plane is engineered for 150% of the design load factor. However, the reason for that extra 50% is so after getting bounced around in turbulence, hard landings, and even potential weaknesses in the design that aren't noticed right away, that you should hopefully still stay in one piece. Do NOT throw that margin away!

The biggest problem is that if you think it's OK to go over gross by 25 pounds today, tomorrow it'll be 50, etc... It's a slippery slope, and you're a test pilot the whole time. Don't fall for the illusion that if it works this time, it'll work next time, because it's dependent on a lot of conditions. The plane has been tested for many conditions to come up with its W&B, performance charts, and limitations. It has not been tested outside those limits, and if you run into one too many conditions that haven't been designed and tested for, you're a smoking crater.

Choose wisely.
 
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dell30rb said:
I calculated the weight and balance for a recent flight for a weekend at hilton head. I told my passengers to please limit their bags for the weekend for 20 lbs.

My girlfriend shows up with a bag that weighed at least 35lbs. For a weekend...


I told her she had to re-pack, and that's what she did. Now, based on the actual weights of the other bags, we had room for a 35lb bag. I didn't mention this. Principles.

Hope she does not see this.
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Ha,ha,ha....I took a girl friend on a trip with an RV. This was a 24 foot turbo Ford Class B. This girl shows up with 3 bags, one just of makeup. I took them into the bed dumpted them on to the bed and then gave her a bag and said everything you take needs to fit in this bag. And that was in an RV.

Year later I took her in the airplane and she said she is not packing until I give her the bag.

So now I describe the bag to my friends on trips....IE a ligthly packed gym bag per adult.
 
N521MA said:
There is no question whether I will be within limits of max gross by the time I land, as will burn roughly 150 pounds of fuel, which in this case put me 100 below max gross. But taking off with potential 50 pounds over.

Plane PA 28 181 - plenty of power to pull.
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I wouldn't do it if I had to maintain specific climb gradients, but lets face it, 50 lbs is nothing. You can be 50 lbs off your pax and bag estimations for all you know and be within limits.

With that said, my personal feelings are, it is not my right to include anyone in activities as PIC that increases the risk. If I was by myself and wanted to do it, well thats on me. I owe my passengers a flight by the books, and I stick to that.

When I flew freight, companies would estimate the weight of packages they brought to the plane, it was quite common. They would hand you a bag and say it was 25 lbs, knowing damn well it was probably 75 or so (most got charged by the weight, not flat rate). You can see how that could compound and cause problems. But with a plane that has excess performance and no pax, it is what it is.
 
N521MA said:
There is no question whether I will be within limits of max gross by the time I land, as will burn roughly 150 pounds of fuel, which in this case put me 100 below max gross. But taking off with potential 50 pounds over.

Plane PA 28 181 - plenty of power to pull.
Click to expand...

150 lbs burn in an Archer? That's over two hours of flight.

Offload 8 gal and make a fuel stop. Make the jerk who lied about his weight pay the difference. Or just leave him behind.

I make it a point to ask passengers for weight including whatever they intend to bring along (separately if it is to go in the cargo area).
 
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Inverted said:
With that said, my personal feelings are, it is not my right to include anyone in activities as PIC that increases the risk. If I was by myself and wanted to do it, well thats on me. I owe my passengers a flight by the books, and I stick to that.
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Well said.
 
MAKG1 said:
150 lbs burn in an Archer? That's over two hours of flight.

Offload 8 gal and make a fuel stop. Make the jerk who lied about his weight pay the difference. Or just leave him behind.

I make it a point to ask passengers for weight including whatever they intend to bring along (separately if it is to go in the cargo area).
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It's about 2hrs in my 182, 150lbs is the difference between my take off and landing weight.

Questions like this are why I got the bigger plane, my recommendations,

Take less or get checked out in a HP single (182 or Dakota) to rent for trips like this.
 
N521MA said:
You counting cruise time but what about 20 minute taxi and climb out.
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climb out burns more fuel as it is full rich full power rather than 75% and reduced mixture. I don't think you burn 2 gph on the ground including run up. So maybe .6 g.
 
As far as slippery slope - no argument there. That is why I would like to re-state: question relates to guesstimated 25-50lbs only. Anything above is completely out of question for this topic.
 
If it's a nice day, and it's not a high elevation airport, sure, why not? there is a fudge factor built into the numbers anyway. What I would NOT do is try to LAND at over max gross. I don't think I'm that good.
 
onwards said:
If it's a nice day, and it's not a high elevation airport, sure, why not? there is a fudge factor built into the numbers anyway. What I would NOT do is try to LAND at over max gross. I don't think I'm that good.
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What do you do if something is wrong?

I've had issues on departure that warranted a return to the airport, before getting out of Class D.
 
N521MA said:
As far as slippery slope - no argument there. That is why I would like to re-state: question relates to guesstimated 25-50lbs only. Anything above is completely out of question for this topic.
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You're looking for validation. You won't get it here.

You need a bigger plane, or explain that when the trip is agreed to, you have to hold everyone to the scale that is just behind the left wing.


Or you need a bigger bird. PERIOD. (I also disagree that a 180 hp Archer has "hauling power").
 
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MAKG1 said:
What do you do if something is wrong?

I've had issues on departure that warranted a return to the airport, before getting out of Class D.
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Then I do whatever makes the most sense and hope I don't screw it up, which is exactly what I would do in any situation when something goes wrong. If I worried too much about the "ifs buts and coulds" of flying... I wouldn't be flying. 50 lbs estimated over max gross for a PA28-180 in nice conditions does not add enough of a concern for me. YMMV.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
climb out burns more fuel as it is full rich full power rather than 75% and reduced mixture. I don't think you burn 2 gph on the ground including run up. So maybe .6 g.
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If you ever fly out of republic you'll know what I mean. It's worse than JFK. Some commercial rated pilots would not even go to KFRG. 2 weeks ago I was inbound for full stop - took me 30 minutes to actually touch the ground. 2 go arounds and twice number 8 on final! No kidding. (Go arounds due to idiots not getting off the runway in time) so when I fly to other airports in the vicinity, my first thought is "where is everyone", almost like unless there are 15 planes in the pattern I have a feeling that something is not right and its not my home airport, especially on VFR weekends. LOL

So .6g does not apply to my home airport. Other fields - agreed
 
bbchien said:
You're looking for validation. You won't get it here.

You need a bigger plane, or explain that when the trip is agreed to, you have to hold everyone to the scale that is just behind the left wing.


Or you need a bigger bird. PERIOD.
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Agreed, select the right plane for the mission. A pair of pliers can work as a hammer but you are better off with a hammer.
 
These discussions come up all the time and the obvious answer is the legal question and that has been beat to death. Once that is answered, then we are left with the what ifs?

Look at 91.323 are you telling me that by magic an aircraft can carry 15% more in Alaska if operated by the right entity? What? I guess the laws of physics are different up there and the aircraft knows what name is on the pilot's paycheck.

Also, look at some of the increased gross STC's, a weight increase for baffling? Come on.

Use good judgement and common sense. Does your airplane fly like a pig near gross, well that should say something. Does it handle the weight with no effort or odd behavior at gross, that says something also.
 
Skylane81E said:
Agreed, select the right plane for the mission. A pair of pliers can work as a hammer but you are better off with a hammer.
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Or.... Lose few pounds myself and cover up the difference in situations like this :)) ROLF
 
Alexb2000 said:
These discussions come up all the time and the obvious answer is the legal question and that has been beat to death. Once that is answered, then we are left with the what ifs?

Look at 91.323 are you telling me that by magic an aircraft can carry 15% more in Alaska if operated by the right entity? What? I guess the laws of physics are different up there and the aircraft knows what name is on the pilot's paycheck.

Also, look at some of the increased gross STC's, a weight increase for baffling? Come on.

Use good judgement and common sense. Does your airplane fly like a pig near gross, well that should say something. Does it handle the weight with no effort or odd behavior at gross, that says something also.
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Gross weight increase on the older cessna 172's limits flaps to 30 degrees from 40 degess depending on model FWIW


http://www.airplains.com/index.php/parts/gross-weight-increase


1968 Cessna 177 with factory 150 hp is so anemic that I use very little flaps near, but still under gross. 100 pound under gross is about my personal limit depending on temps and elevation.
 
I flew professionally for a large department store chain. Our passengers were well briefed on the amount and type of baggage they were allowed.

When some turned up with "steamer" trunks and baggage overage, they were given a medium sized duffle bag to fill to their hearts content.
 
Tell them you need 50 lbs off of the airplane and ask them what part of the plane would they like to leave behind! Maybe they could leave some of their stuff behind.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Depends a little bit on the airplane. A HP no problem.
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The fact that an airplane has more than 200HP doesn't make it any better performer when loaded over max gross than an airplane with less then or equal to 200HP also loaded over max gross. And it certainly doesn't make the aircraft's structure any more able to withstand a max limit vertical gust.
 
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