Overheard at a Class "D" airfield yesterday

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Considering the ongoing thread about the FDK midair I thought this one might be worth sharing. I went out and poked a hole in the sky yesterday. I'm about 20 miles east of the field but still monitoring tower frequency when I heard an interesting exchange between two pilots and the tower.

Pilot 1: A local commercial rated CFI with a zillion hours, he's flying a 172 in the "north practice area" presumably with a student

Pilot 2: A local "Sunday flier" out flying his tri-pacer.

All communications below are paraphrased

Pilot 2 "BFE tower, tri-pacer 999, 10 north."

Tower "999, make direct entry left base runway 09, report 2 mile left base."

Pilot 2 "yes sir" (that's it)

Pilot 1 "Cessna 666 is also 10 north, 3,500', maneuvering. 999 say altitude."

Pilot 2 "2700"

Pilot 1 "I would appreciate it if you'd start making proper radio calls, sir, including altitude" (yes, they know each other)

Tower "Cessna 666, chastising other planes on my frequency is not tolerated."

Pilot 1 "BFE tower, it's harder to spot him without altitude information. If someone is in my immediate area and their sloppy radio work compromises my safety I WILL call them out on it. If you don't like that then give me a phone number. But if you give me a number then you better pull the tapes."

Tower backed down, Pilot 2's subsequent calls weren't any better (they never are) and Pilot 1 commented after one of them "I don't know who signs off on this guy's flight reviews but he should have his license jerked too."

I would've grabbed some popcorn and a beer had I not been in the air too.
 
That's a lot of talking that could have been handled with a "Tripacer 999 say altitude."
 
Sounds like there is some history between the two pilots.

IMO, regardless of the lax radio call of the Tri-pacer, the CFI's use of the tower freq was innapropriate.

Tower SHOULD have given him a number to call.
 
Isn't it wonderful when the testosterone takes over?
 
Likely now the tri pacer pilot won't call till 5.1 miles out. Morons.
 
yeah....we get that now and again.:rolleyes:

It's even more interesting when tower and two said planes can't see one another.....:yikes:
 
Tower should have sent the CFI out of the area to cool off. Some times I wish I was the smartest pilot in the pattern.
 
Unregistered said:
Considering the ongoing thread about the FDK midair I thought this one might be worth sharing. I went out and poked a hole in the sky yesterday. I'm about 20 miles east of the field but still monitoring tower frequency when I heard an interesting exchange between two pilots and the tower.

Pilot 1: A local commercial rated CFI with a zillion hours, he's flying a 172 in the "north practice area" presumably with a student

Pilot 2: A local "Sunday flier" out flying his tri-pacer.

All communications below are paraphrased

Pilot 2 "BFE tower, tri-pacer 999, 10 north."

Tower "999, make direct entry left base runway 09, report 2 mile left base."

Pilot 2 "yes sir" (that's it)

Pilot 1 "Cessna 666 is also 10 north, 3,500', maneuvering. 999 say altitude."

Pilot 2 "2700"

Pilot 1 "I would appreciate it if you'd start making proper radio calls, sir, including altitude" (yes, they know each other)

Tower "Cessna 666, chastising other planes on my frequency is not tolerated."

Pilot 1 "BFE tower, it's harder to spot him without altitude information. If someone is in my immediate area and their sloppy radio work compromises my safety I WILL call them out on it. If you don't like that then give me a phone number. But if you give me a number then you better pull the tapes."

Tower backed down, Pilot 2's subsequent calls weren't any better (they never are) and Pilot 1 commented after one of them "I don't know who signs off on this guy's flight reviews but he should have his license jerked too."

I would've grabbed some popcorn and a beer had I not been in the air too.
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I think a proper radio call generally begins with the party being addressed.

BTW, BFE does not have a tower or Class D airspace.
 
Yup....and I just checked the registry....and there is no "Cessna 666" or "tri-pacer 999" :yikes::ohsnap:
 
It isn't the other guy's responsibility to tell me anything. Or even to have a radio. It's my responsibility to see and maintain separation. If that little event is newsworthy in your world you'd better not try to fly in congested airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
BTW, BFE does not have a tower or Class D airspace.
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I dunno--I flew out of BFE for several years, we were immediately adjacent to a Class D with radar. It is actually still a TRSA.

Normal patterns turned crosswind at ~500 agl to stay out of their airspace. One pilot made a straight out departure and waited too long to call them (~900 agl), he received a violation.
 
Hank S said:
I dunno--I flew out of BFE for several years, we were immediately adjacent to a Class D with radar. It is actually still a TRSA.
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Pardon the dumb question by an out-of-towner ... but not knowing anything about "BFE" I looked it up on Airnav ... and it looks like it's in the middle of nowhere, 20+ miles from the nearest airport, and no Class D or TRSA in sight.

Are we talking about the same place?
 

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I feel it incongruous for a certificated flight instructor to use a radio frequency inappropriately to instruct another pilot on how to make radio calls correctly.
 
I wouldn't have been surprised to hear this from either of the towers I normally deal with after that outburst, "Cessna triple-6 frequency change approved. Remain clear BFE delta."
 
Tripacer 999 was flying into BFE decades before 'the goverment' put a tower there and before 'insecure CFI' was born.
 
Vance Breese said:
I feel it incongruous for a certificated flight instructor to use a radio frequency inappropriately to instruct another pilot on how to make radio calls correctly.
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Wonder if the CFI tried to get paid by the pilot,he was correcting,on the radio.
 
Does the CFI think potential mid-air collisions happen only close to airports with operating control towers?

I was monitoring a local controller at a So Cal class D seven years ago and a CFI on a training flight was spouting off on frequency about how ridiculous it was that they had to hold outside the Delta because of an incompetent controller (it was actually a line of jets inbound to the airport and the controller was attempting to keep them in a good position to follow the last one in). The air traffic manager listened to the tape and sent it to FSDO and the management of the flight school that operated the airplane.
 
Gents, it's been a long time since I have done any VFR flying around uncontrolled fields or even controlled fields that don't have standard VFR arrival/departure procedures.....so tighten me up. I don't recall altitude being a required bit of info (though of course helpful for everyone's SA) and if tower gave me those instructions, I would absolutely only respond with "callsign". There are required read backs and then there is a lot of other comm that you could read back but would get you shut down hard in busy airspace for taking up radio time needlessly. What say ye?
 
Always report altitude on initial contact. If you happen to be under a shelf and your transponder is wrong, it will save your bacon (BTDT -- later verified altimeter was correct, transponder was 200 feet high, so controller thought I busted B when I was 100 below the floor).
 
I dont give altitude unless queried. Once they give me a squawk they ask anyway to verify the transponder readout. Also, I dont think you have to read bsck imstructions, only a landing clearance. 'Yes sir' may not P/C glossary but brings the message across. CFI is a dick.
 
35 AoA said:
Gents, it's been a long time since I have done any VFR flying around uncontrolled fields or even controlled fields that don't have standard VFR arrival/departure procedures.....so tighten me up. I don't recall altitude being a required bit of info (though of course helpful for everyone's SA) and if tower gave me those instructions, I would absolutely only respond with "callsign". There are required read backs and then there is a lot of other comm that you could read back but would get you shut down hard in busy airspace for taking up radio time needlessly. What say ye?
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If I'm maneuvering 10 miles out, and I hear another A/C I can't see call "10 miles" in the same direction, darn tootin' I'm going to want their altitude.

A Midair will ruin your entire day.
 
We have a local jet jock that likes to play radio nazi. He normally ends up ****ing everyone off because he thinks he owns the sky. Most of the locals don't care for him or his boss. So if he calls landing 36 everyone else will use 18 to shove it to him.
 
Hank S said:
I dunno--I flew out of BFE for several years, we were immediately adjacent to a Class D with radar. It is actually still a TRSA.

Normal patterns turned crosswind at ~500 agl to stay out of their airspace. One pilot made a straight out departure and waited too long to call them (~900 agl), he received a violation.
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Today, the closest airport with Class D airspace is about 59 miles from BFE and has no TRSA.
 
AIM recommends altitude as part of your initial call up, but a class D non-radar tower doesn't have a lot of use for it in terms of sequencing arriving traffic; i.e. if you leave it out he probably won't ask for it. That said, it's part of a standard position report.

Issue I have with the CFI is the tower frequency is not an air-to-air frequency; it's the tower controller's frequency. Proper radio etiquette would have been to request the inbound aircraft's altitude from the controller, who would have in turn requested the other aircraft. Some controllers will get real snippy if one aircraft addresses another aircraft directly.
 
Brad Z said:
AIM recommends altitude as part of your initial call up, but a class D non-radar tower doesn't have a lot of use for it in terms of sequencing arriving traffic; i.e. if you leave it out he probably won't ask for it. That said, it's part of a standard position report.

Issue I have with the CFI is the tower frequency is not an air-to-air frequency; it's the tower controller's frequency. Proper radio etiquette would have been to request the inbound aircraft's altitude from the controller, who would have in turn requested the other aircraft. Some controllers will get real snippy if one aircraft addresses another aircraft directly.
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I guess this is kind of the root of what I was thinking. If I were looking to get flight following or an IFR clearance while already airborne, yeah, absolutely altitude would be included. Same for making a position report approaching or overflying an uncontrolled field. This scenario however is a towered field. Which was my question. Normally if there is conflicting traffic, I have seen tower themselves give the advisory, and normally with altitude if they are something non-standard (ie not at pattern/break altitude). Then again, I guess if I am just cold calling a tower (have not previously been under any sort of radar services) I could see how an altitude call would make sense as they wouldn't have that SA already from a hand off. Anyway, thanks!
 
Brad Z said:
AIM recommends altitude as part of your initial call up, but a class D non-radar tower doesn't have a lot of use for it in terms of sequencing arriving traffic; i.e. if you leave it out he probably won't ask for it. That said, it's part of a standard position report.
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If I am inbound, by the time the tower gets back to me with instructions, my altitude is probably a couple of 100ft less and therefore of little value.

If he has radar, he is going to ask me for altitude to confirm what he sees on the screen.

I find 'bonanza 1234Bravo with November 10 miles north landing BunFlugg' just takes up much less airtime than:

'Ahhh, this is a Bonanza, November 1 twoer treeee four bravo at three thousand five hundred, aah no three thousand three hundred feet 2 miles west of randomlandmark, inbound to land land at BunFlugg'
 
weilke said:
If I am inbound, by the time the tower gets back to me with instructions, my altitude is probably a couple of 100ft less and therefore of little value.

If he has radar, he is going to ask me for altitude to confirm what he sees on the screen.

I find 'bonanza 1234Bravo with November 10 miles north landing BunFlugg' just takes up much less airtime than:

'Ahhh, this is a Bonanza, November 1 twoer treeee four bravo at three thousand five hundred, aah no three thousand three hundred feet 2 miles west of randomlandmark, inbound to land land at BunFlugg'
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Santa Maria Tower, Experimental gyroplane five zero niner Quebec Bravo; over Harris Grade descending through 2,500 feet inbound with Mike; Is how I would make the initial call to KSMX because that is what the people who work the tower have asked for.They know I am VFR because Santa Barbara didn’t hand me off and a am squawking 1200.
If I don’t report altitude they have will ask my altitude to help them identify the right dot.
In my opinion that second call is more wasteful of air time than saying the altitude on initial contact.
I have found that different towers have different preferences.
I suspect it depends on their equipment, how busy they are and how they are busy.
Part of my flight planning for new to me airports is to telephone the tower and ask.
I like to meet face to face with ATC if I am going to fly there often.
Some towers just want who I am calling and my N number.
I do the best I can to help ATC because they work so hard to help me.
 
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Vance Breese said:
Santa Maria Tower, Experimental gyroplane five zero niner Quebec Bravo; over Harris Grade descending through 2,500 feet inbound with Mike; Is how I would make the initial call to KSMX because that is what the people who work the tower have asked for.They know I am VFR because Santa Barbara didn’t hand me off and a am squawking 1200.
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How do they know you're the 1200 code and not the primary target nearby?

If I don’t report altitude they have will ask my altitude to make certain they have the right dot.
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How does that make it certain?
 
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