Overhead Approaches

In all the government publications advising pilots on airport procedures since the 1930s, I bet you can't find a single reference to back you up before AOPA's ASF/ASI penned a little article in the 1980s advocating it. It was their self-appointed declaration and carries no weight. You've been duped.

dtuuri

Hmmm... you mean that little AOPA - ASF publication showing two separate crossing-midfield-pattern entries that the FAA still re-distributes to this day as "Runway Safety Training"?

Sounds like an endorsement to me. Eh?
 
From AIM 5-4-27, my bold:
"Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have an operational need to conduct the maneuver."​
So, give me an example we can discuss where one has been "developed" at uncontrolled civilian fields. Special ops for aerial firefighting might be one example, any others?

dtuuri

Once again, the FAA doesn't explicitly prohibit the maneuver in the FARs. The maneuver does comply with 91.126. How you get to that left turn is up to you. Every thing else is AIM recommended and not regulatory.

Also, just because it states in the AIM that they're developed as an operational need, doesn't prohibit them either. That sentence is just giving the background of the procedure and not restricting where it is to be done. Now if the AIM said "The overhead will only be conducted at airports with a specific procedure in place and with a functional control tower." Then you'd have an argument...but it doesn't say that.

Notice how Rod discourages the practice at uncontrolled fields but makes no mention of it being against regs:

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2000/September/200009_Commentary_Since_You_Asked.html
 
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FWIW I almost always use the entry Jay defines. (Unless I'm doing the overhead break ;-)

I cross the runway at mid field and turn left to join the downwind. I was taught this by my CFI as the recommended method at uncontrolled fields. I know for a fact that this CFI has over 24K hours in the right seat instructing, has trained hundreds of pilots, and taught this to every one of them.
 
FWIW I almost always use the entry Jay defines. (Unless I'm doing the overhead break ;-)

I cross the runway at mid field and turn left to join the downwind. I was taught this by my CFI as the recommended method at uncontrolled fields. I know for a fact that this CFI has over 24K hours in the right seat instructing, has trained hundreds of pilots, and taught this to every one of them.
Hey! MY CFI had over 20K hours, and taught that method of pattern entry, too.

I think we have identified the problem. ;)

I am always amused by threads like this. How anyone who actually flies regularly in the GA environment can suddenly label as "unsafe" a pattern entry procedure that has been refined for over a century simply baffles me.

Still, I try to remain open-minded. Questioning everything is usually a good pathway to knowledge.
 
You ask for a low approach. A low approach is not an overhead.

hmmm... I was just thanking Mcfly for posting:

... I've seen aircraft broadcasting the "overhead" but yet they just do a high speed pass down the runway and pitch up to the downwind. That's not an overhead. ....

Sorry.. you aren't the first to say it's not an overhead.

Now... are you sure they only asked for a low approach - because they broke formation over the field, climbed to the downwind, and landed. Maybe they did what Mcfly said?
 
In all the government publications advising pilots on airport procedures since the 1930s, I bet you can't find a single reference to back you up before AOPA's ASF/ASI penned a little article in the 1980s advocating it. It was their self-appointed declaration and carries no weight. You've been duped.

dtuuri

Hmmm... you mean that little AOPA - ASF publication showing two separate crossing-midfield-pattern entries that the FAA still re-distributes to this day as "Runway Safety Training"?

Sounds like an endorsement to me. Eh?
I'm looking for evidence that the technique existed in FAA publications before being "invented" by AOPA/ASF. It makes no sense and nobody here has countered my arguments, preferring to simply continue to argue that it is allowed.

As you know, FAA personnel aren't monolithic in their beliefs. Distribution of third party information at a pilot party is hardly proof of official endorsement. Heck, it doesn't even prove they even read it let alone have the power to speak for the Administrator.

EDIT: The FAA page referring to third party sites has this disclaimer:

"The FAA is not responsible for the contents of the non-government sites listed. The list is provided only as a convenience to the users of this site."​
dtuuri
 
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Dtuuri, the nature of the FAR's are prescriptive, with specific requirements, expectations or prohibitions being explicitly stated (thou shalt, and thou shalt not).

There are no implicit regulations. If you are not told NOT to do it, you CAN do it.

By way of qualification to offer an opinion here, I work with the FAR's and the FAA (as well as foreign regulations and regulators) in my 'real-life', every day, on the Design/Airworthiness side.

FWIW, I too was taught the 'cross-midfield and enter the pattern' as the preferred method for approaching uncontrolled fields, almost 30 year ago now, by another 'got-so-many-hours-he-stopped-recording-them-years-ago' CFI.

My opinion, anecdotally supported by the few times I have been surprised and/or 'scared' when flying, the 5+ mile straight-in to an uncontrolled field is the most hazardous approach in GA and is the ONLY time I have ever had actual issues in the pattern, including NARDO planes.

'Gimp
 
hmmm... I was just thanking Mcfly for posting:



Sorry.. you aren't the first to say it's not an overhead.

Now... are you sure they only asked for a low approach - because they broke formation over the field, climbed to the downwind, and landed. Maybe they did what Mcfly said?

My example is a guy I saw doing what he thought was an overhead at a towered field. He was flying an MU-2 and requested the overhead. My brother was actually on local and approved it. It's a good thing he didn't have another aircraft in front of him because the guy descended down the runway hauling *** at low altitude and then pitched up to the downwind. My brother just kinda laughed because being former AF, he's seen plenty of overheads and knows this guy has no clue. Learning point for him, don't assume a request for the overhead means that the pilot is familiar with the procedure.

I was reading another forum months ago or the last time we talked about overheads, which is usually every 6 months. :DAnyway, it was some guy who used to fly P-51s as a civilian and was telling a story how he got chewed out over the radio by other pilots for doing the overhead. He said it was a standard thing in the warbird community. When he described what he did, I thought no wonder they chewed him out. They were probably looking for him up high and over the runway. In reality, it was a high speed pitch up break at 50 ft off the deck. Don't call it an overhead. Don't even call it a pitch up break, which is a loose version of the overhead. Call it was it is; a low pass. A pitch up break was commonly used in WWII but not something the typical GA guy is going to relate to.

By sticking to the basic description of the overhead as in the AIM. You make things predicable. By doing that you obviously increase safety and lessen the chances of getting chewed out by ATC or other pilots.
 
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You ignored me first: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1861822&postcount=137

Instead of arging with me, shouldn't you be monitoring the autopilot or something?

dtuuri
You simply quoted my post that you never answered.

I think you have gone full troll. I'm not the one arguing with you - just questioning how you are making some of these connections to back up your argument. As I have said before, I am not a personal fan of the mid-field cross-over, but I do not see anything to back up your claims that it is prohibited.

And my Waco doesn't have an autopilot, thank you very much.
 
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There are no implicit regulations. If you are not told NOT to do it, you CAN do it.
You're saying you CAN operate your aircraft nose to nose with somebody else doing the same thing from the other side? Ok, I'll mark you down for choosing the bottom diagram I posted. Now explain to me why the authors of the rule thought that would be a good thing.

By way of qualification to offer an opinion here, I work with the FAR's and the FAA (as well as foreign regulations and regulators) in my 'real-life', every day, on the Design/Airworthiness side.
I hope you aren't as good at finding loopholes in your designs.

dtuuri
 
You simply quoted my post that you never answered.
I quoted your response to my question, the one you ignored. If you don't want me to ignore yours, answer mine first. But, anyway, I have answered yours in my other posts I'm pretty sure.

And my Waco doesn't have an autopilot, thank you very much.

I thought you said you were at work? :)

dtuuri
 
I quoted your response to my question, the one you ignored. If you don't want me to ignore yours, answer mine first. But, anyway, I have answered yours in my other posts I'm pretty sure.
The question I quoted was not TO me. You were asking that question of Jay. I am not going to answer that question - I am not here trying to argue in favor of Jay's position, just trying to understand where you are coming up with yours.

Not only have you forgotten what you are arguing, you seem to be forgetting who you are arguing with.
 
I'm looking for evidence that the technique existed in FAA publications before being "invented" by AOPA/ASF. It makes no sense and nobody here has countered my arguments, preferring to simply continue to argue that it is allowed.

As you know, FAA personnel aren't monolithic in their beliefs. Distribution of third party information at a pilot party is hardly proof of official endorsement. Heck, it doesn't even prove they even read it let alone have the power to speak for the Administrator.

EDIT: The FAA page referring to third party sites has this disclaimer:

"The FAA is not responsible for the contents of the non-government sites listed. The list is provided only as a convenience to the users of this site."​
dtuuri

a) Pilot parties? Bah. How about faa.gov...

b) ... where the dreaded file is hosted directly, not hot-linked.

http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_...ation/safety advisor non-towered airports.pdf
 
You're saying you CAN operate your aircraft nose to nose with somebody else doing the same thing from the other side? Ok, I'll mark you down for choosing the bottom diagram I posted. Now explain to me why the authors of the rule thought that would be a good thing.


I hope you aren't as good at finding loopholes in your designs.

dtuuri
Nice ad-hom attack. Can't argue the facts, attack the messenger.

Your position is not supported by the reg's, nor it appears is it supported by the experience of a large number of aviators here - it is your opinion, and it is completely unsupported by accident data. Which is fine, we all have opinions.

It is tough enough that different FAA offices interpret the reg's in varying ways - add to it the opinion of the wider pilot population and it can get unmanageable.

You are claiming that something that is safely done, day in and day out, across the globe (not just here) is unsafe and against the reg's, with ZERO data or explicit regulatory language to back it up.

We get it, you don't like it - cool, don't do it.

But don't be that guy who tries to come up and chew somebody out for not flying like you want when there is no regulatory requirement to do so, you might end up on the deck.

'Gimp
 
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You're saying you CAN operate your aircraft nose to nose with somebody else doing the same thing from the other side?

Can you imagine the horror if pilot A entered the downwind for runway 18 (left traffic) while pilot B entered the downwind for runway 36 (right traffic)? It's a good thing that can never happen using your preferred method of pattern entry.

Or, everyone can do whatever legal pattern entry they prefer, and they can see and avoid. Imagine that.
 
There never seems to be enough popcorn.

Don't come to T67 if you think crossing midfield to enter downwind to RW14 is unsafe. It's by far the most common way in.

What the hell do we know... bunch of "hicks" (look up the airport if you don't get the joke) who approach over the lake and avoid Alliance and Meacham airspace on the way home.

Seems this thread started with a very different approach technique (that sounds FUN) and degenerated into how to fly a pattern at a non-towered airport.

Oh look, the popcorn is ready.
 
When I was deployed to a foreign location, we used to do "tactical" overheads where we approached the field in tactical spread at low altitude and the speed of heat and when lead was over the runway, executed a simultaneous pull up to the inside downwind. As we slowed, the wings came forward (F-111), the gear came out, and the wingman was 1 mile in trail as we completed the landing. It was a bit noisy but kindof fun. Hope I haven't given the RVers any ideas :wink2:
 
The question I quoted was not TO me. You were asking that question of Jay. I am not going to answer that question - I am not here trying to argue in favor of Jay's position, just trying to understand where you are coming up with yours.

Not only have you forgotten what you are arguing, you seem to be forgetting who you are arguing with.

When you respond to a question, I expect an answer. I knew I was asking another and you grabbed the ball. But I think you already had my answer to your question in post 100 anyway.

dtuuri
 
When I was deployed to a foreign location, we used to do "tactical" overheads where we approached the field in tactical spread at low altitude and the speed of heat and when lead was over the runway, executed a simultaneous pull up to the inside downwind. As we slowed, the wings came forward (F-111), the gear came out, and the wingman was 1 mile in trail as we completed the landing. It was a bit noisy but kindof fun. Hope I haven't given the RVers any ideas :wink2:

Reminds me of a similar experience, at another foreign location. We were there for a few weeks for an international exercise. Show up, get the brief from the USAF liaison folks with local ATC, and proceed to start flying. Rather than use the standard USN 800' AGL overhead/ 600' AGL pattern, we of course abide by what the local USAF guys are doing (like 26k ft MSL overhead or something like that :) ).....no faster than 300 knots, as that was their limit as well. Meanwhile, visiting USMC squadron, also flying Hornets, decides they will be different, as usual......tac initial, combat spread break......except they were doing it at 500'/500 knots....not that I have a problem with that, but when in Rome. But of course as the new arrivals, also flying the same airplane, we are the ones who get in trouble from the locals, thence get a yelling at from the USAF bird. Never mind the fact that the Marines had apparently been doing this for weeks. Of course it was us :) Also not to mention the fact that the folks allegedly complaining, were from the host nation, who just so happened to do their breaks at 50' AGL and basically supersonic. Never did figure out how that came about, but after they shut down the overhead for all US folks, eventually it got straightened out that it had been the Marines not us doing it.
 
Nice ad-hom attack. Can't argue the facts, attack the messenger.
Coming from a master of the technique (let's not forget your accusation I'm anti-formation flying), I suppose I should regard that as a complement of sorts.

Your position is not supported by the reg's, nor it appears is it supported by the experience of a large number of aviators here - it is your opinion, and it is completely unsupported by accident data. Which is fine, we all have opinions.
It is tough enough that different FAA offices interpret the reg's in varying ways - add to it the opinion of the wider pilot population and it can get unmanageable.

You are claiming that something that is safely done, day in and day out, across the globe (not just here) is unsafe and against the reg's, with ZERO data or explicit regulatory language to back it up.
Let's see your data supporting the frequency this stunt is done safely compared to the recommended entry and other alternatives like the upwind entry.

But don't be that guy who tries to come up and chew somebody out for not flying like you want when there is no regulatory requirement to do so, you might end up on the deck.
CAUTION! HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE ALERT!
If you've been eating a typical Western diet you have coronary arteries teeming with vulnerable plaques. Letting a forum discussion raise your blood pressure can result in DEATH! I don't want you to die on my watch. I'd prefer you get beaned by an irate father's towbar for nearly T-boning his daughter on the downwind during her first solo. Here, watch my beer while I go pee, er... on second thought I'll take it with me.

dtuuri
 
Can you imagine the horror if pilot A entered the downwind for runway 18 (left traffic) while pilot B entered the downwind for runway 36 (right traffic)? It's a good thing that can never happen using your preferred method of pattern entry.
I most certainly can imagine it. Much better than meeting spinner to spinner in the middle at near cruising speed, don't you think?

Or, everyone can do whatever legal pattern entry they prefer, and they can see and avoid. Imagine that.
In other words--no rules, just random chance. Is that what you think the "rule" (91.126) was meant to achieve?

dtuuri
 
Coming from a master of the technique (let's not forget your accusation I'm anti-formation flying), I suppose I should regard that as a complement of sorts.


Let's see your data supporting the frequency this stunt is done safely compared to the recommended entry and other alternatives like the upwind entry.


CAUTION! HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE ALERT!
If you've been eating a typical Western diet you have coronary arteries teeming with vulnerable plaques. Letting a forum discussion raise your blood pressure can result in DEATH! I don't want you to die on my watch. I'd prefer you get beaned by an irate father's towbar for nearly T-boning his daughter on the downwind during her first solo. Here, watch my beer while I go pee, er... on second thought I'll take it with me.

dtuuri
Nice try. You clearly have a major issue with language comprehension and are showing classical signs of basically all of the hazardous pilot attitudes - antiauthority, impulsivity, invulnerability, macho and resignation.

I could pull the specific quotes where you made explicit anti-formation statements, and the rest, but you clearly wouldn't accept your own words - please fly as safely as you seem to think you do/will - the rest of us will keep an eye out for you wherever we are in the pattern.

'Gimp
 
When I was deployed to a foreign location, we used to do "tactical" overheads where we approached the field in tactical spread at low altitude and the speed of heat and when lead was over the runway, executed a simultaneous pull up to the inside downwind. As we slowed, the wings came forward (F-111), the gear came out, and the wingman was 1 mile in trail as we completed the landing. It was a bit noisy but kindof fun. Hope I haven't given the RVers any ideas :wink2:
Hell, we already do that all the time! ;)
 
Reminds me of a similar experience, at another foreign location. We were there for a few weeks for an international exercise. Show up, get the brief from the USAF liaison folks with local ATC, and proceed to start flying. Rather than use the standard USN 800' AGL overhead/ 600' AGL pattern, we of course abide by what the local USAF guys are doing (like 26k ft MSL overhead or something like that :) ).....no faster than 300 knots, as that was their limit as well. Meanwhile, visiting USMC squadron, also flying Hornets, decides they will be different, as usual......tac initial, combat spread break......except they were doing it at 500'/500 knots....not that I have a problem with that, but when in Rome. But of course as the new arrivals, also flying the same airplane, we are the ones who get in trouble from the locals, thence get a yelling at from the USAF bird. Never mind the fact that the Marines had apparently been doing this for weeks. Of course it was us :) Also not to mention the fact that the folks allegedly complaining, were from the host nation, who just so happened to do their breaks at 50' AGL and basically supersonic. Never did figure out how that came about, but after they shut down the overhead for all US folks, eventually it got straightened out that it had been the Marines not us doing it.

Sounds like Bagram. Marine EA-6Bs would come in low and hauling the mail. AF was so high you could barely see them. They landed fast though. Read an article that said they were doing like 210 kts on final for F-15Es because of weight.

15s and 16s obviously did the best departures. No rules with coming out of burner early there.
 
When you respond to a question, I expect an answer. I knew I was asking another and you grabbed the ball. But I think you already had my answer to your question in post 100 anyway.

dtuuri
Yeah. Not playing your game.

You want me to argue someone else's point (that I don't entirely agree with myself) while I was pointing out that you've contradicted your own self too many times this thread to present a credible argument.
 
Yeah. Not playing your game.

You want me to argue someone else's point (that I don't entirely agree with myself) while I was pointing out that you've contradicted your own self too many times this thread to present a credible argument.
I do not play games. I do not want you to argue somebody else's position. Saying it's so don't make it so. You quoted my question directed to another without answering, so I didn't feel the need to respond since I had already posted my position over and over. Here's a summary in this thread to date:

I've explained it often here. The bottom line is the limitation of your eyesight (see the Morris study). Having your eyes "open" is not enough, you must merge slowly with other traffic. You also must not assume all traffic is accounted for via the radio or that all aircraft are approaching the same runway you are. Traffic rules can only make sense if the airport, that is the whole enchilada, is the subject of the left turn rule as you approach it. Picking a favorite spot, such as the numbers of your favorite runway to circle around, spoils the rule, since a like-minded pilot heading for the opposite runway would meet you head-on over the middle.

dtuuri

I think the reg says you have to make all turns left while approaching the whole airport not just half of it. That means go around it to the left so you don't smack into somebody else doing the same as you from the opposite direction.

dtuuri

What does it say then.

EDIT: Or better yet, which of these two interpretations of it do you think would result in less conflict, all four planes are making left turns as they approach the object of the regulation:

dtuuri

Can you be more explicit? The FAR's give a rule for how to approach an airport. The AIM gives a recommendation for entering the downwind leg of the traffic pattern. You can enter the pattern in other ways, but if you go over the airport you run afoul of the rule, if the rule is meant to minimize sudden traffic conflicts--which I think should be the obvious reason for it.

You could enter straight into the downwind leg or enter the upwind leg, for example, yet still preserve the rule for making left turns while approaching the airport and in so doing minimize the closure rates with other aircraft.

As for the overhead break at uncontrolled civilian airports and the need to kill off speed, in my experience flying out of these airports in corporate jets I wanted to slow way down well before arrival at the airport in order to have more recognition time. The slower the better too. Even though 500' above the piston pattern, there's always a chance to meet somebody doing the (illegal, but common) teardrop entry, so the more time available to see them, the better.

dtuuri

You're saying you CAN operate your aircraft nose to nose with somebody else doing the same thing from the other side? Ok, I'll mark you down for choosing the bottom diagram I posted. Now explain to me why the authors of the rule thought that would be a good thing.


I hope you aren't as good at finding loopholes in your designs.

dtuuri
 

Ha! The answer judged "most useful" includes this:
"For unmanned airports the picture is less clear-cut, at least in the US where you can join the pattern however you like as long as it's safe."​
It just shows how far pilots have fallen. Reminds me of a private applicant who told me, "I failed my written six times and it expires tomorrow. I don't want to have to take it again. If you just give me my ticket I promise to be real careful and never do anything stupid." I didn't.

We have rules defining safe procedures, it isn't left to each pilot to decide. I believe the standard traffic pattern circumnavigates the airport in accordance with 91.126 and the top drawing below. Those who think the left turn rule means approaching part of the airport not the whole thing, as in the bottom drawing below, need to explain how that was thought to be safer.
Myway yourway.jpg

dtuuri
 
Oh, Christ. I should have known better than to start a thread remotely close to traffic patterns.

Sure wish I could delete the original post.
 
Oh, Christ. I should have known better than to start a thread remotely close to traffic patterns.

Sure wish I could delete the original post.

hahaha.......when I first saw this, I wondered:

1) How long would it take for the first "that's dangerous and irresponsible" post?

2) Would this break 100 pages?
 
Oh, Christ. I should have known better than to start a thread remotely close to traffic patterns.

Sure wish I could delete the original post.


It's an impressive amount of bovine excrement in a concentrated package, isn't it? ;)
 
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