Outdoor antenna resources?

[mikea]

You have one of those, too? Mine is a particular problem when I think about new antennas for the ham station. She thinks "stupidradio" is one word.

Speaking of which...I need to install an over the air TV and FM antenna and it's supposed to be 30 feet AGL. I can do the planning and wiring part - I even used to install TV antennas...well... I had employees.... but I'm in no shape now to be climbing that high.

I found this guy for masts which which look interesting:
http://www.tmastco.com/
Otherwise I think I'd have to put a tower on a concrete base. I can't attach to the house or the roof. The roof is concrete tiles.

I've found some online wisdom so I've got a good idea which antennas I want. I haven't decided weather I should put in a rotor to try to get Milwaukee and Rockford.

Where can I got for help and resources? Can I hook up with hams from the local ARRL? I even have a Novice.

 

[gismo]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

One thing you should consider is that you will need more antenna for digital TV in the not too distant future so you might as well cover that now even if you don't have a HDTV yet.

As to the tower issue, there are plenty of tip-over types if you have room for that. They allow access to the antenna(s) without climbing. I don't know if you can get one that doesn't require support above the ground though. I have a 50 ft tower with another 20 ft of mast and it's guyed about 30 ft up. A more common setup is to attach it to the side of your house as high as there is a suitable (vertical) surface. My neighbor has a freestanding telescoping tower that can extend to something like 50 ft but they are more expensive.

You might consider two antennas (or better yet two UHF and two VHF antennas) instead of a rotator. Rotators are a PITA when they quit in the middle of the winter and they mean you can't watch any combination of two or more channels (or get your TIVO to work properly).

BTW, how tall is your house? Sometimes you can get sufficient results (especially for VHF) putting the biggest antenna that will fit in the attic pointed in the right direction. This not only looks better, but it protects the antenna from the elements and eliminates it as a lightning attractor.

And speaking of lightning, I recommend you make sure the tower is well grounded (in many soils this requires a network of ground rods or buried wire) and that a grounded rod extends high enough above the antenna to provide a 60 degree cone of protection below the top of the rod.

 

[mikea]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

One thing you should consider is that you will need more antenna for digital TV in the not too distant future so you might as well cover that now even if you don't have a HDTV yet.

That's the idea. I need the signal for two HD TiVo and the other TVs.

I counted nearly 30 digital stations in Chicago.

As to the tower issue, there are plenty of tip-over types if you have room for that. They allow access to the antenna(s) without climbing. I don't know if you can get one that doesn't require support above the ground though. I have a 50 ft tower with another 20 ft of mast and it's guyed about 30 ft up. A more common setup is to attach it to the side of your house as high as there is a suitable (vertical) surface. My neighbor has a freestanding telescoping tower that can extend to something like 50 ft but they are more expensive.

I have a big yard but the tip over would have to clear the trees.

I gotta find out how expensive. It not worth me sinking $1000 into it.

I can run the guy wires and possibly support it on the house eave 12-15 feet up with a long narrow clamp.

You might consider two antennas (or better yet two UHF and two VHF antennas) instead of a rotator. Rotators are a PITA when they quit in the middle of the winter and they mean you can't watch any combination of two or more channels (or get your TIVO to work properly).

I had that thought. I may end up with 2 or 3 TV antennas and one for FM. The neighbors are gonna love that.

The hot setup "recipe" is separate UHF and VHF antennas. http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=14818

I only need VHF for WBBM-DT (CBS) whose the signal is so bad, even IN the city, I'm thinking they have a death wish. Of course they carried the last Super Bowl.

Are all of the digital stations supposed to switch to UHF sometime after analog stations are pulled or vice-versa?

BTW, how tall is your house? Sometimes you can get sufficient results (especially for VHF) putting the biggest antenna that will fit in the attic pointed in the right direction. This not only looks better, but it protects the antenna from the elements and eliminates it as a lightning attractor.

No attic. It's a typical slanted roof, but it's a low angle, almost flat. It's like the whole house has a cathedral ceiling but it's only 10-12 feet at the peak on the inside. The roofline gets low enough at the front of the house that I have to duck under it when I step up the 3-4 feet into the front yard.

I would guess my satellite dish is 12 feet AGL over the back deck.

And speaking of lightning, I recommend you make sure the tower is well grounded (in many soils this requires a network of ground rods or buried wire) and that a grounded rod extends high enough above the antenna to provide a 60 degree cone of protection below the top of the rod.

Will do. I just made the sat installer run a ground inside to a copper cold water pipe - even gave him sandpaper to make the connection good - but I gotta make it a heavier solid wire. I'll ground it outside when I do this OTA antenna.

Wasn't there some hubbub recently that lightning rods are a myth? Maybe it should be one for the Mythbusters.

THANKS, Lance!

 

[gismo]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

That's the idea. I need the signal for two HD TiVo and the other TVs.

I have a big yard but the tip over would have to clear the trees.

You might be able to tip it down the driveway and into the street if that's a clear path. The idea is to find an area that will remain clear "forever".

I gotta find out how expensive. It not worth me sinking $1000 into it.

30 ft freestanding telescoping towers run around $2-3k new. A house bracket supported tilt over is well under $1k.

I can run the guy wires and possibly support it on the house eave 12-15 feet up with a long narrow clamp.

If you mean you could attach one or two guy wires to the house, I recommend you don't do that. There are brackets that attach a tower to the side of a house. IIRC the tower can be at least two feet from the attached wall.

I had that thought. I may end up with 2 or 3 TV antennas and one for FM. The neighbors are gonna love that.

The hot setup "recipe" is separate UHF and VHF antennas. http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=14818

I only need VHF for WBBM-DT (CBS) whose the signal is so bad, even IN the city, I'm thinking they have a death wish. Of course they carried the last Super Bowl.

You shouldn't need a separate FM antenna as that spectrum is covered by almost any VHF antenna. You should also plan to mount the VHF antennas below the UHF ones for a couple reasons: One is that VHF is far less affected by nearby foliage than UHF so you want the UHF antennas as high as possible. The other is that UHF antennas are typically quite a bit lighter and create less wind loads so they can be mounted on a mast well above the tower head.

Are all of the digital stations supposed to switch to UHF sometime after analog stations are pulled or vice-versa?

Don't know. Chicago is the only place I know of with a digital VHF station. I thought the plan was to allocate the VHF-TV spectrum (or at least part of it) to other services once everyone was digital.

No attic. It's a typical slanted roof, but it's a low angle, almost flat. It's like the whole house has a cathedral ceiling but it's only 10-12 feet at the peak on the inside. The roofline gets low enough at the front of the house that I have to duck under it when I step up the 3-4 feet into the front yard.

I would guess my satellite dish is 12 feet AGL over the back deck.

OK, until you add a second story, an attic antenna probably won't work. You might be able to make some kind of attachment that sits on top of the roof near the edge to brace a tower though.

Will do. I just made the sat installer run a ground inside to a copper cold water pipe - even gave him sandpaper to make the connection good - but I gotta make it a heavier solid wire. I'll ground it outside when I do this OTA antenna.

Wasn't there some hubbub recently that lightning rods are a myth? Maybe it should be one for the Mythbusters.

The theory of lightning rods has changed, and properly implemented they actually repel lightning rather than attract it. But IIRC, you still get protection for other conductors below about a 60 degree cone from the highest one.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

I have 30' of Rohn 25 with the base I would be very willing to part with a very reasonable price and I am just up the road from you. If you decide to go that way. Otherwise I suggest a few hams, a club in your area is the Fox River Radio League. There is also a nice ham store up in Milwaukee that can answer a lot of question. It is AES and I think their website is aesham.com

 

[mikea]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

You might be able to tip it down the driveway and into the street if that's a clear path. The idea is to find an area that will remain clear "forever".

My driveway is on the wrong side of the house..

30 ft freestanding telescoping towers run around $2-3k new. A house bracket supported tilt over is well under $1k.



If you mean you could attach one or two guy wires to the house, I recommend you don't do that. There are brackets that attach a tower to the side of a house. IIRC the tower can be at least two feet from the attached wall.

OK. That's the plan.

You shouldn't need a separate FM antenna as that spectrum is covered by almost any VHF antenna. You should also plan to mount the VHF antennas below the UHF ones for a couple reasons: One is that VHF is far less affected by nearby foliage than UHF so you want the UHF antennas as high as possible. The other is that UHF antennas are typically quite a bit lighter and create less wind loads so they can be mounted on a mast well above the tower head.

I need a separate FM antenna because WDCB is is Glen Ellyn which is like 180 degrees while the TV antenna will point to Chicago at 147 degrees. The one might work. I'll see.

OK, until you add a second story, an attic antenna probably won't work. You might be able to make some kind of attachment that sits on top of the roof near the edge to brace a tower though.

I'm such a problem child. There can be no top of the roof. I'm not cutting any tiles...and they overhang the edges a couple of inches. The gutter guy told me I have one of two concrete tile roofs in the area and one of a handful in the county. Just what I would need is landmark status.

I'm having a roofer take a look next week to see what needs fixing. I haven't had any leaks since the snow and ice melted.

Upon checking http://www.antennaweb.org I see that there's no station in Milwaukee or Kenosha or Rockford I'll need. I'll just aim for Chicago. I'm only 37 miles away and of course we have nothing but flat land but I have to get through my trees.

 

[Ghery]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

A lot of good suggestions already. If you have the room for the guy wires, you can get push up TV masts that will go to 30 feet. Put it up telescoped down, guy the bottom part, then figure out how long the guys for the second and third 10 foot sections will be, add a little, and install them. Run up the top section and then the middle section. Tighten to suit. Oh, and put the antennas on before you shove up the top two sections. Or, hire someone to do it. The mast itself shouldn't be too expensive. Used to be able to get them at Radio Shack. Don't know about now.

 

[mikea]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

I have 30' of Rohn 25 with the base I would be very willing to part with a very reasonable price and I am just up the road from you. If you decide to go that way. Otherwise I suggest a few hams, a club in your area is the Fox River Radio League. There is also a nice ham store up in Milwaukee that can answer a lot of question. It is AES and I think their website is aesham.com

Rohn 25, THAT'S iT! I didn't know what those were called. 30 or 40 feet will do me, and I should be able to put in one support arm from the house.

I see hams put them up at 100 feet and climb it. Not me.
http://users.wbsnet.org/n0yk/rohn25.htm

Hams also put a lot more antenna up there than I will.

I just need to figure out if I can tilt it at the base. I think I'll have to climb it, but maybe I won't need to change stuff.

We'll talk!

 

[gismo]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

Rohn 25, THAT'S iT! I didn't know what those were called. 30 or 40 feet will do me, and I should be able to put in one support arm from the house.

I see hams put them up at 100 feet and climb it. Not me.
http://users.wbsnet.org/n0yk/rohn25.htm

Hams also put a lot more antenna up there than I will.

I just need to figure out if I can tilt it at the base. I think I'll have to climb it, but maybe I won't need to change stuff.

We'll talk!

Two other points:

1> You should use a line amp at the antenna to drive the cable down the tower and into the house. You can put this amp up to 20 ft from the antenna to make it easier to get to as they will fail if the tower gets hit by lightning.

2> Don't skimp on the concrete base. I recommend going with at least 1.5x what the tower manufacture says is needed in terms of volume. Depth should be sufficient to leave the bottom of the base section 3-6 inches above the bottom of the hole. I used a rented power auger that looked like an oversized drill press on wheels and made three holes with a one foot auger. With that and a little shovel work (post hole digger works well) I ended up with a nice triangular hole 4.5-5 ft deep. I put a few inches of clear uncrushed rock in the bottom of the hole and suspended the base in the hole from a couple 2x4s that bridged the hole. The base must be as plumb as you can get it and it will shift when you pour the concrete so true it up again before things set up.

 

[mikea]

The gutter guy stopped by and we took a new look. The good news is the roof is not as scary as I thought it is, but I still would never think of cutting a hole in it. I think it can be fixed up fairly easily. It just needs to have a bunch of fasteners on the tiles replaced. The scary part is if the day comes when I need to replace tiles and I'm out of spares I'd have to find a place that can fabricate them.

I also realized that the ground to roof distance varies widely. I have 1 1/2 stories where I thought I'd put a tower. 30 feet away it's only 8-10 feet above the rear deck where the ground is higher. I guess I just realized why it was called a hillside house.

I also have a chimney of sorts around the old flue encased with wood siding. I don't know why I thought that would be a bad choice to hold the antenna mast, but I'm still inclined to leave it alone.

 

[mikea]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

Chicago is the only place I know of with a digital VHF station. I thought the plan was to allocate the VHF-TV spectrum (or at least part of it) to other services once everyone was digital.

I just came across the link to this!
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.pdf

It turns that some of the VHF NTSB stations that now have UHF digital stations will have VHF stations when/if the pull the analog plug day ever comes.

I guess what the FCC will reallocate is the frequencies in between once the analog stations with their wide bandwidth requirements are gone.

That's what I was afraid of. Those who are putting up UHF only antennas are going to lose stations when that day comes.

I was afraid I'd do all the work for the current situation and have to change it in a few years. As it stands the best choice is a VHF/UHF antenna. I'm not really deep fringe so I was leaning that way anyway.

I wonder how the mapping of digital numbers to advertised numbers works. I don't see for example that channel 20 digital is actually channel 23. I know the numbers and the frequencies for each are another table but they are showing those as different channel numbers.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Ghery: Outdoor antenna resources?

Rohn 25, THAT'S iT! I didn't know what those were called. 30 or 40 feet will do me, and I should be able to put in one support arm from the house.

I see hams put them up at 100 feet and climb it. Not me.
http://users.wbsnet.org/n0yk/rohn25.htm

Hams also put a lot more antenna up there than I will.

I just need to figure out if I can tilt it at the base. I think I'll have to climb it, but maybe I won't need to change stuff.

We'll talk!

I have got the house attachment too that can be thrown in. PM me and we can talk.