Out of currency -- need a CFII to get current?

[TangoWhiskey]

OK, I know the answer to this, but I'm starting a thread on it anyway, to get a concensus for a fellow pilot who disagrees.

Scenario:

Instrument rated private pilot (we'll call him Ted) whose 61.57(c) currency has lapsed. Is not six months out of currency, so doesn't need an IPC with a CFII or AGI, just needs to shoot some approaches and holds. Ted owns his own Mooney.

Has a friend (we'll call him Ike), who is instrument rated, current per 61.57(c), rated in category and class, who is willing and able to act as safety pilot to get said approaches/holds.

Ted understands that he can go fly with Ike and get 61.57(c) current on a VFR day, under the hood, with Ike as safety pilot.

Ted thinks, however, that he can't go get current in IFR weather, because he can't file an IFR flight plan. He doesn't think it's okay for Ike (who is current for both IFR and PIC, landings, takeoffs, etc.) to file the IFR flight plan, be PIC, and let Ted handle the controls (log PIC as sole manipulator under 61.51)... Ted thinks it's illegal for him to be in IMC without a CFII on board if he's out of currency.

Let's set Ted straight!

Ike can be left or right seat, it doesn't matter. Ike is pilot in command based on the fact that the regulations of the flight (IFR) require a 61.57c current pilot to be on board and take the clearance. Ted can log the approaches and time in IMC, and additionally any time VMC if he's under the hood with Ike as safety pilot.

Can we get a vote?

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, whatever we say, the FAA has one more vote than we do, and the FAA says it's legal. Now, personally, I think it's a terrible idea from a safety standpoint, but I must admit it's legal. Of course, there's no reg specifically saying so, but if you dig in the regs, you'll find there's no requirement in the FAR's that the PIC sit in the left seat -- not even a "control seat." So my answer is "yes," but I will not sign on to "file and go get current before those clouds lift.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Well, whatever we say, the FAA has one more vote than we do, and the FAA says it's legal. Now, personally, I think it's a terrible idea from a safety standpoint, but I must admit it's legal. Of course, there's no reg specifically saying so, but if you dig in the regs, you'll find there's no requirement in the FAR's that the PIC sit in the left seat -- not even a "control seat." So my answer is "yes," but I will not sign on to "file and go get current before those clouds lift.

I agree 100% with the "what is legal isn't always safe" argument, Ron. Good point. Let's presume that you know the other pilot, have flown with him, are aware of his good Instrument skills, and you've flown a lot of right-seat IMC before, and are familiar with his plane, and Ted's not far out of currency.

Would you feel okay as a non-CFII safety pilot acting as PIC and doing the flight?

 

[SCCutler]

I agree that the key issue is whether the instrument-current right-seat IFR-clearance-accepting technical-PIC is actually competent and comfortable with right-seat IMC flying.

How many non-instructors are there for whom this is the case?

I ask not because I believe there are none, but because I am curious. As for me, I would not (without training and experience sufficient to make me comfortable that I could actually do it safely) fly IMC from the right seat.

 

[KennyFlys]

Scenario:

Instrument rated private pilot (we'll call him Ted) whose 61.57(c) currency has lapsed. Is not six months out of currency, so doesn't need an IPC with a CFII or AGI, just needs to shoot some approaches and holds.

I'm confused. He's "not six months out of currency" but...

(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought—
(i) At least six instrument approaches;
(ii) Holding procedures; and
(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems.
(Emphasis Added)

So, why couldn't he fly in IMC? Has he accomplished those three tasks in the previous six months? If it's IMC, he could continue to fly as PIC and file IFR as well as accomplish these tasks for currency.

If they are done in VMC, he would require a safety pilot.

Am I missing something here?

 

[TMetzinger]

Yes. He's not current (meaning he's not done that stuff within 6 months), but he's not 6 months out of currency (meaning he hasn't done that stuff within 12 months.

In the first 6 months of your absence from IFR currency, you can't act as IFR, but you can go up with a CFI or safety pilot and do those tasks and regain currency.

Once you're more than six months out of currency, you need an IPC with an appropriately rated instructor.

Hope that makes it clearer.

 

[KennyFlys]

Yes. He's not current (meaning he's not done that stuff within 6 months), but he's not 6 months out of currency (meaning he hasn't done that stuff within 12 months.

In the first 6 months of your absence from IFR currency, you can't act as IFR, but you can go up with a CFI or safety pilot and do those tasks and regain currency.

Once you're more than six months out of currency, you need an IPC with an appropriately rated instructor.

Hope that makes it clearer.

61.57(d)

I wasn't thinking ahead. I was behind the airplane!

It's been a long day of risking my life on Atlanta roads!

 

[poadeleted20]

In addition to being right-seat IMC competent and current, the right-seater must also be able to tell when the left-seater is getting over his head, when to step in, and how to step in safely. That's taught to and practiced by CFI's, but is not a part of any other pilot training curriculum. There are accidents on record involvling stuff like this, including one fatal accident involving a Mooney flown by a non-IR wife in the left seat and her IR husband in the right seat -- crashed shortly after takeoff into IMC.

Therefore, even if the right-seater is perfectly adept at cross-cockpit instrument flying, I still recommend against this practice.

As for Scott's point, yes, I think there are a few airplanes out there whose AFM requires the PIC to be in the left seat. Dunno how this plays out for training folks in the plane (maybe there's an exception for training from a CFI), but I think they're out there, and in that case, it would not be legal for "Ted" and "Ike" to do this. I also believe there are insurance policies which require any non-CFI PIC to be in the left seat, but that is not a safety issue.

 

[gismo]

I agree that the key issue is whether the instrument-current right-seat IFR-clearance-accepting technical-PIC is actually competent and comfortable with right-seat IMC flying.

How many non-instructors are there for whom this is the case?

I ask not because I believe there are none, but because I am curious. As for me, I would not (without training and experience sufficient to make me comfortable that I could actually do it safely) fly IMC from the right seat.

I'm not a CFII (or even CFI) but I have flown a fair amount of right seat IMC in the past. I can't say I'd feel comfortable doing it now in any serious IMC because it's been a while since I did it.

 

[gismo]

I agree that the key issue is whether the instrument-current right-seat IFR-clearance-accepting technical-PIC is actually competent and comfortable with right-seat IMC flying.

How many non-instructors are there for whom this is the case?

I ask not because I believe there are none, but because I am curious. As for me, I would not (without training and experience sufficient to make me comfortable that I could actually do it safely) fly IMC from the right seat.

I'm not a CFII (or even CFI) but I have flown a fair amount of right seat IMC in the past. I can't say I'd feel comfortable doing it now in any serious IMC because it's been a while since I did it.


I would expect that anyone flying as a required copilot in a part 135 or 121 operation would be be qualified to do this in a familiar plane, but then many of those folks have been or are CFIIs.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Next Poll:

I have a friend who says 1+ 1 = 43. I want to set him straight. What's your opinion?

(a) 1+1=2
(b) 1+1=43
(c) Yes, Virginia, there are such things as stupid questions (or at least stupid polls)

PS: I'm only teasing.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Curious Ron - why is this a problem from a safety standpoint? We're assuming these are two capable pilots and one of the two pilots is taking responsibility of the safety of the flight.

Scott, it's only a problem from a safety standpoint because Ron is extremely conservative on this issue. His posts have been pretty consistent on this whether it's IFR or landing currency.

If you share Ron's concerns, it's a safety issue. If you don't, it's only a safety issue not when the pilot in the right seat is not competent to fly from the right seat.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I would expect that anyone flying as a required copilot in a part 135 or 121 operation would be be qualified to do this in a familiar plane, but then many of those folks have been or are CFIIs.

And, they usually have a set of flight instruments on the co-pilot's side...

 

[poadeleted20]

Scott, it's only a problem from a safety standpoint because Ron is extremely conservative on this issue. His posts have been pretty consistent on this whether it's IFR or landing currency.

If you share Ron's concerns, it's a safety issue. If you don't, it's only a safety issue not when the pilot in the right seat is not competent to fly from the right seat.

I say again -- it's more than whether the person in the right seat is competent to fly in the right seat. That person must further be capable of evaluating the left-seater's performance, determining when it's necessary to take control, and taking control safely, not just a safety pilot in the 91.109 traffic watch sense. This person is responsible for the basic control of the aircraft in IMC while someone not PIC-qualified else is flying the plane. That goes beyond even being a co-pilot in air carrier operations.

In addition, people have been killed trying this. Yes, qualified PIC's get killed flying instruments from the left seat, but I don't see how anyone can argue that having in the right seat someone who's never been trained in all the listed skills while a non-current or non-IR pilot is flying the plane in IMC doesn't raise the risk factor into the yellow arc.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think it depends on the individual flying in the right seat.

I think that's obvious.

Would I rather have a 5,000 hour instrument pilot in the right seat with lots of real world IFR or a 350 hour CFI? Maybe the answer is neither, but if you had to choose, that's a no brainer. I'd much rather have the experienced pilot.

There are always exceptions to rules.

I had about 20 hours of right seat instrument flying when I got my instrument rating on my flight instructor's certificate (zero actual instrument). Does that qualify me to take a student into IMC?

Qualify you? Yes, legally speaking. Make the risk level reasonable? Hard to say without knowing how much total instrument experience you had.

Speaking of accidents there are CFIs in the right seat that die with students in the left seat.

Exactly my point -- if folks who are trained to handle things can get whipped by circumstances, it's even riskier to try it with folks who are not so trained.

 

[JustinPinnix]

Exactly my point -- if folks who are trained to handle things can get whipped by circumstances, it's even riskier to try it with folks who are not so trained.

As someone who was nearly killed by a "wannabe" instructor I wholeheartedly agree with Ron's point. You want someone in the right seat who not only knows how to fly, but knows how to divide attention between watching the pilot and looking outside the window.

 

[Baron 55]

Gotta agree with Mr. Levy on this one. [Though, yes, each case is different.] As a long-time CFII, and as is likely the case with most other CFIIs, I have done lots of this sort of thing, and there have been a number of times that the pilot practicing in IMC for currency has begun to get us into some pretty hairy situations, potentially lethal. Had someone trained and experienced in recognizing the degradation of the situation not been aboard and alert, things would have been very bad very quickly. I am not saying a non-CFII should never, ever do it, act as safety pilot in these conditions, but it is cheap insurance to have the CFII along.

 

[bqmassey]

I don't think this is as risky as some of you are making it seem. The pilots would stay in VFR conditions, right? In any kind of emergency, the left-seater just has to take off the hood. That takes less than a second, and you've got a competent pilot in the left seat in VFR conditions.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Troy, didn't you make a cool, and very thorough algorithm to answer currency questions...maybe 2 years ago?

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't think this is as risky as some of you are making it seem. The pilots would stay in VFR conditions, right? In any kind of emergency, the left-seater just has to take off the hood. That takes less than a second, and you've got a competent pilot in the left seat in VFR conditions.

Unless I misunderstood it, the original question involved, and my answer was based on, flying in IMC. That is definitely not the same as flying under the hood in VMC with a non-instructor safety pilot.

 

[Baron 55]

Here's what I was responding to: "Ted thinks, however, that he can't go get current in IFR weather...."

What he means is "IMC," and that is what prompted me to suggest a CFII is a valuable consideration.

 

[bqmassey]

Yeah, I see now. My mistake.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Troy, didn't you make a cool, and very thorough algorithm to answer currency questions...maybe 2 years ago?

It was a flowchart for PIC; I'll see if I can find it tonight.

 

[tonycondon]

here it is Troy. BTW- when you first posted that here, or on red board, I thought it was pretty awesome, still do!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

here it is Troy. BTW- when you first posted that here, or on red board, I thought it was pretty awesome, still do!

Hey, thanks Tony! Saved me some work!