Osh Noob Questions

Jay Honeck said:
We've never had a problem flying out. You line up, and a guy in a pink shirt waves you off, just like Maverick and Goose. It really could not get easier.

Just stay below the arrival corridor's altitude, and you will be fine. Once you're outside of Class Delta, you probably won't see another plane all the way home. (Although one year we got to see a B-1 Bomber come in BELOW us. That was kewl. :D)
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How about getting out IFR?

I'll bet that B-1 was cool. There are SO MANY cool sites and sounds there.
 
I have driven from Milwaukee or the U.P. to stay in Green Bay or Appleton for the past 14 years. The Army effectively cured me of any desire to camp so I get a hotel room and commute. There are advantages to driving. One year I will break down and fly but for now I take the easy way out. Appleton is a nice airport so flying there is OK and probably a lot easier than Oshkosh.
 
SCCutler said:
Bruce, what you describe is pretty much what Jesse, Tommy and I experienced last year- a real zoo, and one guy in a Deb who was all over us and just not paying attention. It was... Interesting.

But I'll fly in again. :D
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Yeah, it's always fun flying unintentional close formation with someone in a Debonair that doesn't seem to understand there are other airplanes in a line that he just cut into the middle of. If you're close enough to see the rivets you're too damn close.

The problem with OSH is that you have very few options for getting out of the line if someone comes in there and tries to run you down. Any direction you choose may be deadly including down. Someone could very easily be just right below you. Since he was only nearly running into us from every possible direction, and we weren't dead, continuing on with him only nearly running into us seemed like the best bet.

Thankfully someone at FISK finally spotted his stupidity and pulled him out.
 
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Flew in last year. Kinda hairy,but will do it again. Felt accomplishment having done it!
 
bbchien said:
When I got to FNL the controllers were ripping him a new one at the refuel queue. That was the last year of "no harm, no foul".

Turns out he had never read the notam. He put RIPON into his GPS and flew there.

There are all kinds of loonies. The ones that read are not the problem. The ones that can't, don't or are unwilling, are.
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I don't like the idea of big brother breathing down the necks of airmen. BUT, at OSH and SnF, I think it would be worthwhile to have big brother standing by the runway to flag down and discuss matters with pilots who seemingly don't know what the heck they are supposed to be doing. If they appear clueless AND can't produce a copy of the NOTAM, IMO, they are willfully ignorant and dangerous and need remedial attention, whatever that is.

I don't need dumbassery going on in the pattern with me...
 
jesse said:
The problem with OSH is that you have very few options for getting out of the line if someone comes in there and tries to run you down.

Thankfully someone at FISK finally spotted his stupidity and pulled him out.
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So if there's no safe direction, what direction did they pull him out?

I always thought the NOTAM said to exit the line, go back to the beginning and start over.
 
kyleb said:
If they appear clueless AND can't produce a copy of the NOTAM, IMO, they are willfully ignorant and dangerous and need remedial attention, whatever that is.

I don't need dumbassery going on in the pattern with me...
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I never agreed with the "produce a copy of the NOTAM" idea. If you're heads-down reading the NOTAM in that environment, you're going to end up dead. You need to know it before you go.

There's GOING to be Dumbassery. If you know that going into the scenario, you are better off than hoping it won't be there.

Kinda like investing. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
So if there's no safe direction, what direction did they pull him out?

I always thought the NOTAM said to exit the line, go back to the beginning and start over.
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Since they could see the entire situation with their eyes, they told him a safe direction. But given the limited amount we can see in the front seat of the Bonanza it's not so obvious. We had aircraft in front of us, to our rear right, to our rear left, a Debonair that was everywhere from beside to on top to underneath. There was a temptation to just dive for the deck and get the hell out of there but without being able to see underneath us that didn't seem like a good idea either.

The controllers fired off rapid instructions and sorted it all out...there was just too many aircraft all stuck in an area waiting at the time while more kept flowing in.

When we arrived was right after that F16 mess where they had to shut down arrivals for awhile. There were people that had been circling for a hour. It wasn't a line as much as it was a cluster of frustrated pilots all trying to get in.
 
SCCutler said:
Bruce, what you describe is pretty much what Jesse, Tommy and I experienced last year- a real zoo, and one guy in a Deb who was all over us and just not paying attention. It was... Interesting.

But I'll fly in again. :D
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Not until I have guns. It's too close for sidewinders.

The problem is I have "j-u-d-g-e-m-e-n-t". And try as I might to suppress it, it doesn't make any sense for me to fly all the way in.

I did do that about 15 years ago, in the M20J. It was temp 93 dewPt93, and when I broke out on the 27 approach, there was this HUGH flying boat in front of me. I couldn't help keying "Runway in sight....WHAT is THAT?"

The reply was, "That is a Sunderland Flying Boat. He will land long. Can you make the red dot?" That was VERY cool. But I'm not so into managing risk anymore.

I take the van.
 
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jesse said:
When we arrived was right after that F16 mess where they had to shut down arrivals for awhile. There were people that had been circling for a hour. It wasn't a line as much as it was a cluster of frustrated pilots all trying to get in.
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I was shooting photos of landings for hours watching that mess. That was "the perfect storm" with the airport shut down at peak time.

I bet I have a photo of the Bonaza landing. I'll look. Spike's tail number, right?
 
denverpilot said:
So if there's no safe direction, what direction did they pull him out?

I always thought the NOTAM said to exit the line, go back to the beginning and start over.
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That's the threatened procedure (so to speak); in real life, the controllers are very flexible, and will work the offending dumb ass back into line if possible.

The controllers at OSH rock. They make it work, every time, no matter what.
 
bbchien said:
Not until I have guns. It's too close for sidewinders.

The problem is I have "j-u-d-g-e-m-e-n-t". And try as I might to suppress it, it doesn't make any sense for me to fly all the way in.

I did do that about 15 years ago, in the M20J. It was temp 93 dewPt93, and when I broke out on the 27 approach, there was this HUGH flying boat in front of me. I couldn't help keying "Runway in sight....WHAT is THAT?"

The reply was, "That is a Sunderland Flying Boat. He will land long. Can you make the red dot?" That was VERY cool. But I'm not so into managing risk anymore.

I take the van.
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No harm, no foul, no shame. As Clint once said, a man's got to know his limitations.
 
Anthony said:
How about getting out IFR?

I'll bet that B-1 was cool. There are SO MANY cool sites and sounds there.
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Last year was the first year I flew IFR into Oshkosh, had a 8 am slot. Peice of cake came across Lake Michigan flew straight in to runway 27. From this point forward I will only fly IFR into Oshkosh. Leaving we had a IFR slot after the show, call CD got our flight plan opened up taxied out and lined up on the right side of 09 with the rest of the IFR planes got about 5 planes from the front and CD told me that my flight plan had just disappeared and asked if I had called and cancalled it. Um no I did not, so he tells me I need to call FS and refile. No thanks Ill just depart VFR and pick one up in the air. No big deal waited tell we were close to Lake Michigan and called and open one up in the air.

Mike
 
SCCutler said:
Thanks, Nate!

Glad I gave you only "ordinary" picture opportunity.

And, check out that sweet Queen Air in the last one! :D
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The heartbreaker that day was the guy who tried too hard for the dot with a taildragger and got a prop strike for his efforts.
 
Jay Honeck said:
No harm, no foul, no shame. As Clint once said, a man's got to know his limitations.
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I'm going to have some fun with this one. I've got a full week beforehand to coach her and four hours in the air to teach her.

I'm going to see if a zero hour student pilot can do the Ripon approach correctly, unlike some of the bozos I've been in the pattern with the last 35 years.

Jim
 
After flying with a TIS connection and seeing how close I come to other traffic while just out punching holes in the sky, I am even less concerned about traffic at OSH.

At least at OSH, people *expect* to see other traffic in the area, and even if they aren't flying the procedure correctly per the NOTAM, people generally are more focused on 'see and avoid' than when doing a general scan out putsing around on a weekend.
 
weirdjim said:
I'm going to have some fun with this one. I've got a full week beforehand to coach her and four hours in the air to teach her.

I'm going to see if a zero hour student pilot can do the Ripon approach correctly, unlike some of the bozos I've been in the pattern with the last 35 years.

Jim
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:lol: I'll bet you can do it.

The FISK approach is simplicity itself. "Follow the railroad tracks from Ripon, and the guy ahead of you. Listen, don't talk. Land on that big dot over there, on an 8000 foot runway."

Honestly, I am speechless that people would fly to some outlying airport just to avoid having to do it.
 
Everyone who flies VFR into Oshkosh has their story, including your friendly neighborhood Steingar (ye Gods, but I hope no one has such a story about me). However, I don't think there's ever been a midair collision on approach to Oshkosh. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Oh, lots of accidents to be certain, a couple every year. But no mid airs that I know of, certainly none since I started attending.

Usually, if something is really that dangerous there will be some crashes. The thought of operating a motor vehicle in close proximity to a bunch of people who don't know the rules, don't see me, and don't operate in a safe manner really doesn't bother me at all. I've been doing it every day on motorcycles for years.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Well, when I say we've had no "problems" in the Fisk Approach, I'm not counting things like the year we got stuck in an interminable hold around Rush Lake because the controllers withheld vital information that would have instantly resolved the problem.

...Or the year we got stuck behind a Cub going 70 mph instead of 80 knots.
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Yeah, then there was the time I got stuck behind some couple in a Pathfinder doing 80 knots instead of 90. ;) :rofl:

(Or the for-real incident with the Luscombe that landed opposite the traffic flow without talking to anyone, saw people running for the runway to get his tail number and tell him to get the hell out of the way, and took off right into the flow of traffic too...)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yeah, then there was the time I got stuck behind some couple in a Pathfinder doing 80 knots instead of 90. ;) :rofl:

(Or the for-real incident with the Luscombe that landed opposite the traffic flow without talking to anyone, saw people running for the runway to get his tail number and tell him to get the hell out of the way, and took off right into the flow of traffic too...)
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Whoops! Yeah, I'll go read the NOTAM again. :lol: (Although that's Mary's concern this year. I'll just be the guy in the right seat, spotting traffic.)

To Steingar's point, IMHO most of the landing accidents at OSH are caused by the WAY too tight RIGHT base turn to final on RWY 27.

For whatever reason, the controllers continually demand that we all "keep it in tight" inside the blue water tower. Methinks they do this because if they didn't the pattern would eventually stretch to Green Bay -- but some pilots take it way too seriously and try to turn tighter than their skills (or aircraft) allow.

Result? Every year, someone prangs it on that runway.

Mary and I keep it tight, but don't/won't do anything spectacular just to satisfy the guy in the tower.
 
The accidents I recall were all pure and simple pilot error. Stall spins for the most part, though there was a really spectacular taxiing accident. Easier to stall and spin whilst distracted to be certain (something I might have approached at SNF, though not certain). Everyone seems to concerned about midair collisions, but most accidents are easily avoidable by remembering basic airmanship. I suppose I have to agree with the Jay, if you really don't think you can maintain your discipline in the wake of distractions, then by all means don't. But to be honest, you should be far more concerned about smaller fly-ins (I've seen far worse shenanigans at smaller events) and indeed you should be worried about being in the air at all. Murphey knows, **** happens. The point of being a good pilot isn't about being able to keep the shiny side up on a clear day. It's about being able to step up to the plate when it hits the fan.
 
At Oshkosh 2010 – Cub and Saratoga at Fisk - >
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/how-long-is-too-long/?prev_next=prev

Good reading about the Fisk approach and safety ->
http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/pilots_lounge_128_oskhosh_arrival_198208-1.html

The Notam for AirVenture 2012 is now on theAirVenture site http://www.airventure.org/flying/2012_notam.pdf
One of the minor changes from last year is to present both knots and MPH on one chart so that everyone knows 90 knots is equal to 104 MPH. Again, please note that J-3 Cubs will be using the Fisk approach flying at our top speed of 70 MPH.

The mass flight of Cubs is limited to only 75 before 7 A. M. on Sunday. So, the remaining Cubs at Hartford, numbering up to 150 will leave in groups of 4 or more using the Fisk approach from 7 A.M. to 11 A.M. that same morning. Everyone will want to be on the ground at Oshkosh around the same time.

Remember, if you can’t stay behind Cubs doing 70 MPH, no “S-turning” and you should return to the end of the line. Sorry, that’s the rules per the Notam.
 
Rick Rademacher said:
At Oshkosh 2010 – Cub and Saratoga at Fisk - >
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/how-long-is-too-long/?prev_next=prev

Good reading about the Fisk approach and safety ->
http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/pilots_lounge_128_oskhosh_arrival_198208-1.html

The Notam for AirVenture 2012 is now on theAirVenture site http://www.airventure.org/flying/2012_notam.pdf
One of the minor changes from last year is to present both knots and MPH on one chart so that everyone knows 90 knots is equal to 104 MPH. Again, please note that J-3 Cubs will be using the Fisk approach flying at our top speed of 70 MPH.

The mass flight of Cubs is limited to only 75 before 7 A. M. on Sunday. So, the remaining Cubs at Hartford, numbering up to 150 will leave in groups of 4 or more using the Fisk approach from 7 A.M. to 11 A.M. that same morning. Everyone will want to be on the ground at Oshkosh around the same time.

Remember, if you can’t stay behind Cubs doing 70 MPH, no “S-turning” and you should return to the end of the line or maintain 135 knots at 2,300’. Be established at these speeds and altitudes prior to Ripon. Sorry, that’s the rules per the Notam.
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Fixed that for you.

I would be extremely uncomfortable doing 60 KTs in the Bonanza for an extended period of time, but 135 is easily doable.

And thanks for the heads up!
 
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gprellwitz said:
Fixed that for you.

I would be uncomfortable doing 70 KTs in the Bonanza for an extended period of time, but 135 is easily doable.

And thanks for the heads up!
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Exactly, and if you're gonna fly the upper deck in an Arrow, you damned well should be at full power, not slowed up to 90.:nono:
 
gprellwitz said:
Fixed that for you.

I would be uncomfortable doing 70 KTs in the Bonanza for an extended period of time, but 135 is easily doable.

And thanks for the heads up!
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70 mph, meaning 60 knots.
 
Rick Rademacher said:
At Oshkosh 2010 – Cub and Saratoga at Fisk - >
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/how-long-is-too-long/?prev_next=prev

Good reading about the Fisk approach and safety ->
http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/pilots_lounge_128_oskhosh_arrival_198208-1.html

The Notam for AirVenture 2012 is now on theAirVenture site http://www.airventure.org/flying/2012_notam.pdf
One of the minor changes from last year is to present both knots and MPH on one chart so that everyone knows 90 knots is equal to 104 MPH. Again, please note that J-3 Cubs will be using the Fisk approach flying at our top speed of 70 MPH.

The mass flight of Cubs is limited to only 75 before 7 A. M. on Sunday. So, the remaining Cubs at Hartford, numbering up to 150 will leave in groups of 4 or more using the Fisk approach from 7 A.M. to 11 A.M. that same morning. Everyone will want to be on the ground at Oshkosh around the same time.

Remember, if you can’t stay behind Cubs doing 70 MPH, no “S-turning” and you should return to the end of the line. Sorry, that’s the rules per the Notam.
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I've said it in years past, and I will say it again: Aircraft that can't do 90 knots should have their own approach into OSH.

I've been stuck behind Champs and Cubs going 70 on the FISK approach, and it's not fun. I don't understand why EAA/FAA hasn't come up with an alternative approach for you guys. It certainly seems doable.
 
I have been told that a slow plane approach has been discussed for years at Oshkosh. I had hoped that the 75th anniversary of the J-3 Piper Cub would spur the EAA/FAA into making it a reality.


As that didn't happen, I can only caution pilots as to the larger numbers of very slow planes this year that will be using the Fisk approach.


Please be extra careful out there this year for many slow movers!
 
Rick Rademacher said:
I have been told that a slow plane approach has been discussed for years at Oshkosh. I had hoped that the 75th anniversary of the J-3 Piper Cub would spur the EAA/FAA into making it a reality.


As that didn't happen, I can only caution pilots as to the larger numbers of very slow planes this year that will be using the Fisk approach.


Please be extra careful out there this year for many slow movers!
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Thanks for the head's up!
 
So I read the NOTAM, and question for those flying into Appleton, if coming from the south it looks like you will fly right over RIPON, RISK and OSH,

1) Is one good if they just fly over the osh arrival area at say 6500' or anywhere above the Turbine twin approach altitude?

2) When flying it ATW do you need to actually fly over one of the reporting points?

3) How often do they stick you into holds headed into ATW and long have folks experienced holds.

4) Any recommendations for fuel stops in Western Indiana or south of Chicago area?
 
AdamZ said:
So I read the NOTAM, and question for those flying into Appleton, if coming from the south it looks like you will fly right over RIPON, RISK and OSH,

1) Is one good if they just fly over the osh arrival area at say 6500' or anywhere above the Turbine twin approach altitude?

2) When flying it ATW do you need to actually fly over one of the reporting points?

3) How often do they stick you into holds headed into ATW and long have folks experienced holds.

4) Any recommendations for fuel stops in Western Indiana or south of Chicago area?
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Look to stay in the eastern half if IN lol, look around Goshen you ought to find a fuel $$ friendly field. The other stuff, no clue, I'd never consider landing anywhere but OSH unless I was on the water.
 
AdamZ said:
So I read the NOTAM, and question for those flying into Appleton, if coming from the south it looks like you will fly right over RIPON, RISK and OSH,

1) Is one good if they just fly over the osh arrival area at say 6500' or anywhere above the Turbine twin approach altitude?
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Yes. Most aircraft will be at 1800 or 2300 over RIPON and FISKE. Just keep your eyes open, as there is a lot of traffic all over the area and there is NO traffic system that will work when the transponders are turned off (as they should be within 30nm of OSH).

2) When flying it ATW do you need to actually fly over one of the reporting points?
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What does the NOTAM say? (That's a hint.)

3) How often do they stick you into holds headed into ATW and long have folks experienced holds.
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Never been into KATW around airshow time, so I'm not sure. However, I strongly urge you to consider flying into KOSH, especially since Alon is coming from so far away and may or may not get another chance. It's not that hard, and it is something every pilot should experience at least once. IMO, going into Appleton during Airventure is the equivalent of flying to the city the Super Bowl is in and then just watching it on TV in a sports bar.

4) Any recommendations for fuel stops in Western Indiana or south of Chicago area?
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Will the pilots need to be refueled? ;) KOXI has cheap fuel but not much else. 05C has a great little mexican restaurant on the field and appears to have fuel available too.
 
AdamZ said:
So I read the NOTAM, and question for those flying into Appleton, if coming from the south it looks like you will fly right over RIPON, RISK and OSH,

1) Is one good if they just fly over the osh arrival area at say 6500' or anywhere above the Turbine twin approach altitude?
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At 6500' over Ripon, you'll be fine. Probably won't see another plane...unless you look WAY down. :D
 
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