Operations into controlled airspace

petrolero said:
I think you all know the requirements of entering the various controlled airspace and are simply arguing the semantics of whether those requirements amount to a "clearance".

You: a clearance is something that you request and are explicitly given.

Them: a clearance is implicit when you meet the requirements for entering the airspace.

implicit vs explicit is what you're arguing. Call it what you like as long as you know the requirements.
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Words have meanings and in this case the semantics count. It's not what you and I call it or think it is that counts. It's the words ATC uses that count.

You have a clearance when the word "cleared" is used.

You are VFR and are speaking with the tower at a Class D airport. Both your and they are using your tail number in the conversation. You may enter the Class D airspace unless instructed to remain clear. Not one more singe word is required. The word "clearance" never needs to be said or heard. But that conversation does not mean you are cleared to land until those words are heard. Same is true for Class C.

Class B? Different story.

First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under § 91.131(a)(1) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no. A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The issuance of a vector provides navigation information but does not provide clearance from ATC to enter the subject airspace. 2010 Doremire interpretation.
​
You are VFR and speaking with Approach for the Class B airspace. Both you and they are using your tail number in the conversation. They may even have given you a recent vector for traffic that puts you on a direct route to their airspace and kind of forgot to tell you to "resume own navigation." You have not been instructed to remain clear. You enter the Class B airspace. You have violated the reg.

We have "terms of art" aka lingo aka jargon in aviation. Understanding the lingo is an aid to understanding the underlying concepts.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's because IFR pilots are operating on a clearance in controlled airspace. They are already "cleared" into any airspace their "clearance" and ATC instructions take them. Apples and oranges compared to the VFR pilot who is not operating on a clearance until "cleared" to do something specific.
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My point exactly.
 
Doremiere has some really disturbing aspects to it. I'll be sure to let ATC know when I disregard their vector that it isn't an obligatory instruction under the FARs as intpretted by Miss McPherson.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm hoping someday I know a Class C controller who will play along...

"Colorado Springs, Skylane 1279M, level niner-thousand, 25 north, VFR to Pueblo."

"Skylane 1279M, you're a dick."

And then I continue on my way to PUB and they never say anything again. Totally legal. :)
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I promise you, if I ever get my transfer to COS, I will totally play along. ;-) In the meantime, we could use the traffic at BJC.
 
Someone needs to read the FAA pubs and become proficient with airspace requirements.
 
Sac Arrow said:
They should, but but if they didn't....

In one particular instance which I am aware of, the pilot was on flight following above a Class D airpace, and was issued a restriction to stay above 2,500 feet (the ceiling of the Class D airspace.) The pilot understood that to mean stay at a nominal 2,500 feet, plus or minus a tolerance, not stay clear of Class D. Pilot dipped below 2,500 feet and was admonished for violating Class D airspace.
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Well he should! It's 2500' AGL, not MSL, so maybe that's what got him.
 
flyingron said:
Doremiere has some really disturbing aspects to it. I'll be sure to let ATC know when I disregard their vector that it isn't an obligatory instruction under the FARs as intpretted by Miss McPherson.
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It is a problematic opinion very poorly written.

But I think there's both a practical and legal bottom line to it that does not require one to test the limits by disobeying an instruction and inviting enforcement action:

If we are VFR, it is incumbent on us to never assume we are cleared into Class B and to clarify the instruction by insisting on hearing the "magic words." Many of us have been saying that since the days of TCAs.

It doesn't take a lot to say, "Confirm cleared into the Class Bravo on that heading."

And, yeah, a good number of us will whine about having to do that.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It doesn't take a lot to say, "Confirm cleared into the Class Bravo on that heading."
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The other day I heard a pilot ask a controller to confirm he was cleared into Bravo airspace. The controller seemed a little confused about the request. I thought about this thread. :)
 
JWhistler said:
I'm having a friendly debate with a couple of people regarding requirements to enter, specifically, Class C and Class D airspace. They say I need "clearance" to enter. I say you don't ask for clearance, and you won't receive "clearance."

Here's my discussion points, pulled from the FAR...

In Class A and B, the FAR specifically states clearance is required prior to entering the airspace.

In Class C and D, the only requirement is that two-way communication is established. You need not "request clearance," nor will the tower say that you have clearance. Establishment of two-way communications is achieved when the tower reads back your FULL call sign.

Example: Flying into Martinsburg (Class D)...
Me: Martinsburg Tower N156ME is inbound 10 miles to the south with information Yankee for runway 26.
Tower: November 156ME standby...
(With that, you are free to enter the airspace, but the tower never gave you "clearance."

If the tower replied with something like: "Inbound flight from the south standby..."
You may NOT enter the airspace and must hold until you have received a full read-back of your call sign.

§91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
(a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
§91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

§91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

§91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

So...Do I need to request clearance when entering Class C or D, and do I need to wait for clearance to be granted before entering? :)
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You answered your own question several times.

I'd love to hear your opponents' argument...
 
Sac Arrow said:
There is one caveat:

"...with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services..."

You have to be talking to the right ATC. 99% of the time this is not an issue since ATC is responsible for coordinating transits through airspace, but for example, say you're on flight following - approach may or may not have jurisdiction over an underlying Class D airspace. If they don't, and they weren't expecting you to enter the Class D and you did, then it would be a bust.
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At least with respect to Approach and Class D, it would probably not be a bust given an FAA Order that, after stating the ATC obligation to coordinate transits, goes on to say
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
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It makes complete sense. There are LOIs that divvy up airspace that pilots usually don't know about. So, the job of coordination is left to ATC.

The point was brought home to student once in an interesting way: we were going to fly through a Class D while not using flight following, so he called the Tower for the transit ... and was told to call Approach.

I personally have no problem relying on the guidance and, so far anyway, have not felt the need to ask for confirmation.
 
Sac Arrow said:
They should, but but if they didn't....

In one particular instance which I am aware of, the pilot was on flight following above a Class D airpace, and was issued a restriction to stay above 2,500 feet (the ceiling of the Class D airspace.) The pilot understood that to mean stay at a nominal 2,500 feet, plus or minus a tolerance, not stay clear of Class D. Pilot dipped below 2,500 feet and was admonished for violating Class D airspace.
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Rightly so.
 
midlifeflyer said:
At least with respect to Approach and Class D, it would probably not be a bust given an FAA Order that, after stating the ATC obligation to coordinate transits, goes on to say
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
​
It makes complete sense. There are LOIs that divvy up airspace that pilots usually don't know about. So, the job of coordination is left to ATC.

The point was brought home to student once in an interesting way: we were going to fly through a Class D while not using flight following, so he called the Tower for the transit ... and was told to call Approach.

I personally have no problem relying on the guidance and, so far anyway, have not felt the need to ask for confirmation.
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Correct, but for whatever reason approach either didn't want to (or maybe they couldn't, due to tower workload) coordinate a transit, and just failed to explicitly say "remain clear of Class D."

In my own home drone, it's a non issue as approach controls within the airspace and routinely routes traffic through it without a handoff.
 
flyingron said:
While the last is often repeated as gospel, it's not officially stated anywhere. It's merely the FAA guidance to controllers issuing class B clearances to VFR flights. All you need to comply with the regulation is a clearance. In fact, for a long time departing from IAD didn't have the "class B" stuff on the departure clearances. They started doing "CLEARED INTO" for a while (since that was the only phraseology mentioned in the ATC handbook) but now "CLEARED OUT OF" is used which is equally inane as it presumes the pilot actually is going to leave the class B after departure (typical, but I have flow from IAD to BWI and never left the airspace). IFR pilots don't hear any mention of class B airspace in their clearances.
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I seem to recall the big book also saying "APPROVED AS REQUESTED" is okay for issuing B clearances instead of the cleared words, if appropriate.
 
Sac Arrow said:
In my own home drone, it's a non issue as approach controls within the airspace and routinely routes traffic through it without a handoff.
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If that airspace is Class D approach does control the airspace within Class D. The tower controls it. Now, there may be a LOA (Letter of Agreement) between the two facilities granting approach approval to do that. Or approach may be coordinating w/ tower for transit through the Class D. How do you know they're not coordinating w/ tower anyway? If there's a LOA, then I could agree with your statement above.

Former controller BTW.
 
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One facility is not supposed to route you into another's space without coordinating it. Still it doesn't hurt to ask. I was bopping up the lakeshore getting services from C90 one time and asked if they were going to coordinate with Meigs. They quickly dumped me...frequency change approved. Had just enough time to establish comms with the tower (Navion 5327K Hotels northbound 2000'). I don't think the tower ever was fully aware of where I was in the whole sequence.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Correct, but for whatever reason approach either didn't want to (or maybe they couldn't, due to tower workload) coordinate a transit, and just failed to explicitly say "remain clear of Class D."

In my own home drone, it's a non issue as approach controls within the airspace and routinely routes traffic through it without a handoff.
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It's been a non-issue every time I've gone VFR though a Class D airspace while receiving flight following.

The funny coordination (not for transits but for landing) is Denver Approach and Centennial. I've often thought there was some kind of contest at Denver TRACON to annoy the KAPA Tower, often delaying a hand-off that appeared to have no prior coordination. Happened often enough but one I recall specifically was returning from KDEN. TRACON already routed us through Buckley's airspace and we (about 5 aircraft in succession) were getting close KAPA's Class D.

I decided not to play the game. I requested a switch to Tower. You could hear the sigh on the other end of the mike as I apparently spoiled his fun.
 
A case can be made that you do need a Clearance to enter Class C or D airspace. There is no doubt that you need authorization to enter. How we get that authorization is to establish two way radio communication. Now look up the definition of Clearance
 
luvflyin said:
A case can be made that you do need a Clearance to enter Class C or D airspace. There is no doubt that you need authorization to enter. How we get that authorization is to establish two way radio communication. Now look up the definition of Clearance
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What case? Clearance has a defined meaning in aviation. Communication isn't it.
CLEARANCE− An authorization by
air traffic control for the purpose of preventing
collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to
proceed under specified traffic conditions within
controlled airspace.​

Hickory Tower, Navion 5327K
Navion 5327K, Hickory Tower go ahead.

Hickory has no clue where I am or what I want. I'm legal to proceed. How are they making any of the things that a clearance provides?
 
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