Operating handbook, supplements, pilot's guide, etc...

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
The documents mentioned in the title must be kept in the aircraft.

But has the FAA said anything that reflects the shift from paper versions to digital versions?

Would having all of the required documents on a USB Flash drive count? Or must it still be paper and papyrus?
 
I bet it has to be paper. I bet it would be too easy to digitally alter one.
Plus it has to have 30 years of muck on it so they know its real.

My POH looks like the U.S. constitution. Probably worse.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My POH looks like the U.S. constitution. Probably worse.
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Yeah, the Constitution has gotten really messy with all those troublesome Amendments and all.
IBTL
 
I would think if you had it on a flash drive you would need to have a means to read it. I think a PDF version would be less likely to be altered.
 
Lol @ altered

You can alter anything if you want to.

Think the important part is it can be easily / quickly / reliably referenced by the PIC.


So the way I see it, PDFs on the iPad on your lap, OK
PDFs on a loose thumbdrive on the glove box, no bueno
 
Continuing the digital theme....

PPL checkrides, the student usually brings the aircraft logbooks (paper) to show the examiner the entries for all required items....

What if he had a photo of the correct pages?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Continuing the digital theme....

PPL checkrides, the student usually brings the aircraft logbooks (paper) to show the examiner the entries for all required items....

What if he had a photo of the correct pages?
Click to expand...

Why not.

Frankly I'd talk to the DPE, but if I do any add ons with my own plane, at 20% of a value of a 200k airframe, I'd rather not carry around that much money on my person when I could just bring up google drive on my iPad with zero risk, AND it's even easier to reference.
 
MauleSkinner said:
AC 91-78 seems to allow it...
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91_78.pdf
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Just a quick glance it appears it is permitted. here's an excerpt:

b. Operators transitioning to a paperless cockpit should undergo an evaluation period during which the operator should carry paper backups of the material on the EFB. The backup should be readily available to the crew. During this period the operator should validate that the EFB is as available and reliable as the paper-based system being replaced.
Page
 
Adding a layer to the discussion....

If not a physical USB Flash Drive, how about having the documents stored and organized in the cloud (DropBox, Google Drive, or similar) and accessible with your tablet?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Would having all of the required documents on a USB Flash drive count?
Click to expand...
No. The electronic version must meet the definition of an EFB which is a display device that stores the required info. An IPad for example but not just a storage device (flash drive). Same goes for your cloud question: the info must be stored on the "EFB."

The only issues I've heard of was dealing with 91.9 and a statement found in most guidance on EFBs: "The EFB system does not replace any system or equipment that is required by regulation." Or something similar. I've heard every POI/ASI /FSDO has their own definition when it comes to having a paper POH/AFM on board per 91.9. Definitely a good question for the local FSDO to see how they view it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Adding a layer to the discussion....

If not a physical USB Flash Drive, how about having the documents stored and organized in the cloud (DropBox, Google Drive, or similar) and accessible with your tablet?
Click to expand...

Lol
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I bet it has to be paper. I bet it would be too easy to digitally alter one.
Plus it has to have 30 years of muck on it so they know its real.

My POH looks like the U.S. constitution. Probably worse.
Click to expand...

I LOVE the smell of my POH. It smells like the marriage of leaded gas exhaust and a musty basement.
 
Champ Drive, if it's for the Champ, all you originally had and still need is the Operating Limitations, the original one was signed by the CAA
 
AggieMike88 said:
Continuing the digital theme....

PPL checkrides, the student usually brings the aircraft logbooks (paper) to show the examiner the entries for all required items....

What if he had a photo of the correct pages?
Click to expand...
Off topic, maybe, but when did this become a thing. I definitely didn't bring aircraft logs to my check ride 25 years ago.
 
Lindberg said:
Off topic, maybe, but when did this become a thing. I definitely didn't bring aircraft logs to my check ride 25 years ago.
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How did the examiner know the aircraft was airworthy? At my flight school, we had a mx sheet that had all the dates and hours of inspections. We’ve worked with the same examiner for years and he’s accepted that sheet. We were always given the logbooks though in case he wanted to see if we knew how to point out the inspections.
 
jordane93 said:
How did the examiner know the aircraft was airworthy? At my flight school, we had a mx sheet that had all the dates and hours of inspections. We’ve worked with the same examiner for years and he’s accepted that sheet. We were always given the logbooks though in case he wanted to see if we knew how to point out the inspections.
Click to expand...
I flew out to him, so he knew it was airworthy in the practical sense, which was apparently all he cared about. I've never personally looked at the logs of any aircraft I've flown in to make sure it was airworthy in the legal sense. Maybe I'm living on the edge?:eek:
 
Lindberg said:
I flew out to him, so he knew it was airworthy in the practical sense, which was apparently all he cared about. I've never personally looked at the logs of any aircraft I've flown in to make sure it was airworthy in the legal sense. Maybe I'm living on the edge?:eek:
Click to expand...
't

How long ago? Got my PPC in 1976 and didn't do it either. Maybe different then, but the DPE was also the Chief Instructor. Actually all my Certs I don't recall bringing logbooks, and they were all done by 1978.
 
Gary Austin said:
Champ Drive, if it's for the Champ, all you originally had and still need is the Operating Limitations, the original one was signed by the CAA
Click to expand...

I've owned my Champ since 1985, and yes, I do know exactly what's required on board and that there is no published POH for it. Just seeing if anyone would bite.
 
mscard88 said:
't

How long ago? Got my PPC in 1976 and didn't do it either. Maybe different then, but the DPE was also the Chief Instructor. Actually all my Certs I don't recall bringing logbooks, and they were all done by 1978.
Click to expand...
1993
 
As long as the instruments that need green arcs and red lines are marked properly, the operating limitations will show the values, POH, Pilot Operating Handbook, they didn't come along til well after the Cub, Tcrafts and Champs were no longer built, don't remember the exact year, gary
 
AggieMike88 said:
The documents mentioned in the title must be kept in the aircraft.

But has the FAA said anything that reflects the shift from paper versions to digital versions?

Would having all of the required documents on a USB Flash drive count? Or must it still be paper and papyrus?
Click to expand...

It has to be viewable inflight aka on a iThingy.

Be weary of having everything digitally based. Even in the 121 world with us using iPads we still have paper QRHs for fault messages and emergencies. Paper won't blue screen when the SHTF. Plus I can access the specific checklist on the paper QRH light years faster then the digital copy.
 
I have no flight manual, but I have a bunch of supplements.
 
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