One piece of metal in oil filter

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Plano Pilot, Sep 15, 2018.

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  1. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    IMG_30351.jpg


    A friend has his Mooney 201 in for annual. When the mechanic inspected the oil filter he found what is in the picture. No other metal and it is magnetic. He pulled the sump and did not find anything. They will continue looking next week.

    Anyone have any ideas where this came from? The engine has 1600 hours and I believe it has not been into since last overhaul. To me, in the picture, it looks like it broke off the right side. I asked the owner if it is flat on the side laying on the paper towel and he did not know. Dowel????
     
  2. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Line Up and Wait

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    I would hope that the mechanic recognized it! I know on some engines the accessory covers have locating dowels; it would not be impossible for one to drop out, if the assembler wasn't paying attention.
     
  3. charlie

    charlie Pre-takeoff checklist

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    gear tooth?? Need better picture and multiple angles
     
  4. JonH

    JonH Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Judging by the shape and wear marks, that's a 'shard' from a sub-orbital rail gun munition. Must have fallen right out of space into an open oil dipstick tube.
     
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  5. Salty

    Salty En-Route

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    Looks more like a gear tooth than a dowel, but the picture is not good enough for me to even guess. That would keep me up at night if it were my engine.
     
  6. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Mechanic thinks it is a tooth and I agree it is hard to tell from the picture. I wish the mechanic had taken more pictures. They are looking at the accessory side next week. If the side next to the paper towel looks like the right side of the picture I agree with the tooth idea.

    I was told Lycoming said that it is small enough and as long as nothing else was in the sump it is good to go. Both my friend, the mechanic and I disagree.
     
  7. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    In the picture it looks like the right side has broken off something, not like it dropped out.
     
  8. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    OMG the sky is falling,,You must over haul that engine... :)

    Just remember 1 small piece of metal does not create a trend. But, if a trend develops then worry.
     
  9. Salty

    Salty En-Route

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    Tom has far, far more experience than I, but I don’t consider that a small piece of metal if it happens to be part of the oil pump or cam drive gear, for example. And what would concern me is that I’m not sure you’d know if it was a problem until it gets real bad real quick. But again, I probably fly more than Tom, but know a lot less than he does. Maybe knowing I’ll be the one in the plane gives me better perspective, maybe not. ;-)
     
  10. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    Did you strain the drained oil? If not you may have missed more pieces, bigger pieces don’t end up in the filter.
     
  11. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Well it is all a crap shoot, the thing is no one know when that chip occurred, he could have been fly for a thousand hours with that in the bottom of the tank. If so would you stop now?
    If there is more debris in 5 hours, I'd pull the engine.
     
  12. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    that is big enough to see a part number if there was one!
    If you fly it, stick to daylight vmc and over good long flat farm fields.
     
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  13. Banjo33

    Banjo33 Line Up and Wait

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    Yep, looks like something is coming from together.
     
  14. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    I would suggest talking with an engine shop or the engine manufacturer. They should be able to examine that piece of metal and be able to tell where it came from with certainty. Then an informed decision as to what to do next can be made.
     
  15. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

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    The engine manufacturer says "no problem" (per post #6). I don't think they make those observations lightly. That said, the mechanic had his eyes on it, as did you. It's your a$$ on the line and if it were me, I wouldn't base my decision on a lot of opinions that are based on an out of focus photo that is too small to make any educated guess as to its origin.
     
  16. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    Let them physically inspect the piece. And ask them for a written evaluation. Lycoming has been around a few years and they know what metal is used where and should be able to pinpoint where it came from. A good engine shop should have similar capabilities.

    It is easy to discount it over the phone or on the internet.
     
  17. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Its not hard to pull a mag, at least look at those teeth?
     
  18. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    At least no bolts are broken....yet. ;)
     
  19. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    How do you know that, Are you telepathic ?
     
  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    No double the insurance and hire a ferry pilot.

    Better yet, Six-y says there isn't any thing broke, let him fly it.
     
  21. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    That would be appropriate for a small sliver or small flakes. This is an actual piece of something. Maybe it was a left over from a previous gear failure. Maybe it fell into the dipstick tube dropped from a 757. Who knows. But it should be investigated to ensurethe owner is flying a truly airworthy aircraft.

    Stating the sky is falling is not constructive and just belittles the situation.
     
  22. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    How do you know that?
     
  23. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    This situation is why engine penally runs were invented.
    Do the simple stuff first, change oil, flush the engine, new filter and run it, then see what you have, If it is coming apart You'll know it.
     
  24. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    I'd want to know
    a) where it came from, and
    b) what else got damaged when it happened.

    I don't care what e-experts say, I'd have it investigated before I flew it again.
     
  25. Salty

    Salty En-Route

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    It’s tough on a mooney, but you could probably get a look at all the drive gears in the accessory box that way too. Not sure if you can see the camshaft gear from there. Probably with a borescope you could.
     
  26. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Yeah yeah....run it some more till ya see bigger parts. o_O
     
  27. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    The OP picture.

    No idea what that is.

    Here is an article on this very subject.
    https://www.avweb.com/news/features/Heavy-Metal-In-Filters-and-Screens-225110-1.html

    Lycoming has something to say too.

    "j. If any single or several pieces of magnetic or nonmagnetic metal larger than previously mentioned in steps e. through i. Ground aircraft and investigate.
    NOTE
    If the origin of the metal contamination cannot be determined, a call may be made to the Lycoming Product Support Department. A good description (photographs, color and quantity, etc.) of the metal may result in placing its origin. When phoning Lycoming or when returning metal removed from engines, supply the complete engine model designation, serial number, history of engine, oil temperature, oil pressures, and any unusual behavior of the engine on the ground or during flight. Do not ship material to Lycoming without first calling the Product Support Department."

    https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Piston Pin Plug Wear Inspection.pdf

    The SI is not well titled. Read through it and go from there. The end goal is to have an airworthy engine and aircraft - something that is safe and reliable.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
  28. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Tell us what a piston pin plug is made from.
     
  29. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Probably because you don't know much about engines.
     
  30. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Would there be any doubt then?
     
  31. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    Sorry, Tom. Not playing your game.

    The OP asked a question. I offered my opinion and provided some relevant reference material. I hope he found it helpful.

    You can continue on with your "penally runs". I am sure they are wonderful! :cool:
     
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  32. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    About aluminum piston pin plugs, Relevant alright.
     
  33. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Yep, some one is trying to impress us with how much he knows about engines.
     
  34. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Show me one time I told him to go fly it.. or prove yourself a liar.
     
  35. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Trouble is, You don't know shi- about this engine or how to trouble shoot it, You don't know when there debris occurred You don't know if it will reoccur.
    So all you can do is babble on about how wrong I am.
     
  36. Salty

    Salty En-Route

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    Can’t create a trend if he doesn’t fly it.

    Can’t fly it for 5 more hours without flying it.

    I can’t tell if it’s the inability to remember what you just did, or just outright dishonesty.

    No, that’s a lie. I can tell.
     
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  37. nrpetersen

    nrpetersen Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Might it (the dowel in the pix) be the dowel in the end of the crank that indexes the crankshaft to the cam shaft etc timing? If that fastening system (which has a history of problems and subject to ADs) works loose, it is instant engine failure.

    I can't imagine what the oil pump gears must look like.:eek:
     
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  38. bkspero

    bkspero Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Tom, to be fair to Tarheelpilot, when I read your post above (I bolded the relevant sentence, not Tom) I interpreted it as your recommendation to continue to fly the airplane for at least another 5 hours. Did I misunderstand your recommendation? If not, then I don't see how Tarheelpilot can be accused of lying about that point. If I did misunderstand the sentence in bold above, what did you intend it to mean?
     
  39. bkspero

    bkspero Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The OP indicated that the piece of metal was caught in the oil filter. I am far from an expert, but doesn't it look too large to have gone through the Lycoming oil screen? If so, then doesn't that limit the possible sources of the metal to parts downstream of the oil screen and upstream of the oil filter? What is there? The oil pump? What else?

    Or is it not uncommon for the oil screen to be compromised to the point that such a large piece of metal might pass through it?
     
  40. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    Tom, just give up. These ignoramuses that don't have any alphabetics after their names and who are just Nervous Nellies about a chunk of metal in the mix have evidently no grease under their fingernails.

    Any damned fool that takes ONE ISOLATED instance of metal, no matter the supposed source, are the folks that send our kids to college and provide us Hawaiian vacations. For no good reason other than the sycophants of this thread who think they know engine maintenance better than those of who have been doing this for over half a century have an unsupported reason for scaring the OP into an expensive "fix" when there is no "fix" necessary.

    You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves unless you come with chops that show up Tom and I.

    Jim
     
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