Once I have my PPL, I plan on buying. Suggestions?

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muleywannabe

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Cherokee235
It seems like a lot of you here are owners of aircraft. I would love the absolute freedom of owning my own aircraft in the near future, (6-12 months). I know with freedom comes additional expenses. Can everyone fill me in and give me info on aircraft ownership as to costs to operate, annual costs, average repair costs etc. I know that there are several factors such as hangar rental costs, insurance costs. I would look at buying an inexpensive (cost) airplane in the $35K range, it will be older but will have a lot of updates including GPS, IFR and so on. When I buy the plan, I will have a couple close friends who have owned for years and my CFI with me to make the final decision. minimal amount financed, so that is a non-issue.
What I am mainly concerned about is what are the ongoing costs on an older aircraft, assuming at the purchase point that the mechanic finds nothing wrong etc.
What would be a good starting number to set aside for unforeseen maintenance etc?
Lastly, do you feel that with the current economy and the price of aircraft today, that the price of aircraft tomorrow will be higher or can you speculate that you may get your money out of the aircraft in a few years of use?

I would like to find a nice used 4 seat aircraft, I will fly on weekends or on some longer trips for fun.

I have learned a lot from this site and I feel the negative speculations are actually quite helpful in retrospect, so share all thoughts and concepts.
 
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You need to clarify or narrow down some specifics such as type plane, location, intended mission, expected hours use per month or year, intended maintenance you wish to perform, etc.

Some rural locations have free tie down. Experimental planes offer freedom of much more owner maintenance than certified, as well as newer cheaper avionics, parts, etc.

Really it could be cheap or expensive based on what you get, where you are, if you know what maintenance you can perform and what to do when pushed into a corner by some A&P, etc.
 
I'm new to ownership, but have figured on and experienced so far: Insurance, Hanger, Fuel (you will want to fly that thing after all), Oil/Oil Changes, Cleaning supplies, Save for the Annual and Overhauls as well as the Unexpected. The unexpected items came at me fast, but I think I am getting things under control. I quickly found that I could have rented a nicer airplane for all my flying for much less money, but having it ready to go in the hanger - "Priceless".
 
I have a 1973 182 and have had it for almost 9 months now and have a pretty good pattern going for maintenance...

Fly her, have the A&P fix something...fly her, fix something else...fly her...find another squawk...taker her for another flight, back to the A&P!

My mechanic likes me...or rather likes my plane!

Luckily have all been minor, but depending on your plane they can be a dream outside of the annual or a money pit...so far I am right in the middle!
 
Avionics and "systems" are expensive. The less junk you have the less it costs to keep it up.

That hangar queen is going to require a lot more to bring back into operation than you think.

An engine could go poof at any time. It probably won't but it could. Whatcha gonna do?

Who is going to do the work? Are you a drop the airplane off with your credit card kind of guy? Or a guy who has a connection with an A&P that is willing to signoff on your work?

A Stinson 108 with a moderate sized engine can be a nice airplane for the money.
 
Have we made it to "You can buy an old Lear for less than a 182" yet?:rofl:

Seriously, figure out what you need the plane to do for you first, go through all the ownership and maintenance models you can find, then buy the Bonanza.:D

If you are worried about resale price, or money at all, don't buy any plane. What the market will do in the future is irrelevant because you are not in the aircraft resale business, you are in the aircraft consumption side of the industry. Buy your last/long term plane first and your usage value will counter market effects.
 
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One of the most important things is that you find a balance between a maintenance pig and an airplane you love.

The looks of an airplane matter just as much as anything else. What do you want?

If you hate the look of a 182, don't buy one because people tell you it's the best airplane for the job. It will inevitably require maintenance and money. Spending a bunch of money on an airplane you think is ugly will keep you up at night.



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dell30rb said:
One of the most important things is that you find a balance between a maintenance pig and an airplane you love.

The looks of an airplane matter just as much as anything else. What do you want?

If you hate the look of a 182, don't buy one because people tell you it's the best airplane for the job. It will inevitably require maintenance and money. Spending a bunch of money on an airplane you think is ugly will keep you up at night.



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The difference between a maintenance pig and a relatively trouble free plane is condition, past care and operations more so than make and model.
 
Don't overlook joining a club or an existing partnership. It's a good way to test the waters of ownership and figure out if it's for you.
 
Sadly in my area there is an EAA club but no rentals or partnerships. Next issue is there are zero rental aircraft available in my area. Closest rental i know of is where i am training, 50 miles away from home.
 
Henning said:
The difference between a maintenance pig and a relatively trouble free plane is condition, past care and operations more so than make and model.
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Very true! As others have said, figure out what you need the aircraft to do so you can narrow down the choices a bit, but then look for a well maintained aircraft that has been used regularly and I would avoid getting a starter aircraft. Instead of starting your search looking for a 172, for example, look instead for the best airplane you can get in that category. You may find a really nice looking and superbly maintained Warrior or early Mooney or 180 or whatever. Finding 'that' airplane will be the biggest predictor of cost for the next few years, more so than what brand you get. I think you will find those of us here that were lucky to have found that plane that has given us great reliability probably give too much credit to the make/model. Likewise, some who unfortunately bought a turd probably wish they had bought a different make. condition first and foremost, then make/model if all else equal.


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You could probably do a search on this site and get a lot of info on which plane and how much to reserve for unexpected expenses. When deciding what to buy, do your due diligence. It is expensive to trade airplanes. Henning is right to buy your last airplane first.
 
muleywannabe said:
Can everyone fill me in and give me info on aircraft ownership as to costs to operate, annual costs, average repair costs etc.
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Send me an email, and I'll send you a paper I wrote on ownership costs for a simple 4-seat single. Emails only -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves.

I would look at buying an inexpensive (cost) airplane in the $35K range, it will be older but will have a lot of updates including GPS, IFR and so on.
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I think that's an unrealistic expectation at that price point. You might want to browse the aircraft ads to see what is realistic for the capabilities and equipment you want.
 
somorris said:
You could probably do a search on this site and get a lot of info on which plane and how much to reserve for unexpected expenses. When deciding what to buy, do your due diligence. It is expensive to trade airplanes. Henning is right to buy your last airplane first.
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It depends on what your last airplane is going to be. If it's going to be a twin turboprop? Then probably no you don't want to buy your last airplane first.
 
Depends on the airplane. Cost for our Mooney have been pretty consistant over the years, total fixed costs are $12k/yr +/- 10%. Just add gas/oil and fly!

Note: This cost does not include purchase of the aircraft, just fixed costs such as hangar, insurance, annual, unexpected repairs, upgrades, etc.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think that's an unrealistic expectation at that price point. You might want to browse the aircraft ads to see what is realistic for the capabilities and equipment you want.
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There is a nice looking, mid time piper warrior with a 430 on barnstormers asking 40k.
 
Insane said:
It depends on what your last airplane is going to be. If it's going to be a twin turboprop? Then probably no you don't want to buy your last airplane first.
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Why not? If that's the plane you have a need for, it makes little sense to start with something that doesn't fill your needs. If you need a King Air to haul everything you need to haul and make meetings and get to sites on your own schedule, then less than a King Air is going to be a waste of money. You just get the plane you need, hire a pro pilot/instructor to fly with you for as long as it takes to get comfortable/rated/insured in it and fill your mission from day one while learning from day one in the plane you will continue to fly. In the end you not only save the costs of upgrading, you also gain the benefit of full mission capability from the very start.
 
Henning said:
Why not? If that's the plane you have a need for, it makes little sense to start with something that doesn't fill your needs. If you need a King Air to haul everything you need to haul and make meetings and get to sites on your own schedule, then less than a King Air is going to be a waste of money. You just get the plane you need, hire a pro pilot/instructor to fly with you for as long as it takes to get comfortable/rated/insured in it and fill your mission from day one while learning from day one in the plane you will continue to fly. In the end you not only save the costs of upgrading, you also gain the benefit of full mission capability from the very start.
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Well for the same reason you may not be able to buy your last car first, or your last house first or even marry your last wife first. :D Sometimes you need to progress and work up to what you really want. The approach you outline above is great if you have more money than sense. My dream plane the one I want is a King Air 200. That is my last plane if I achieve what I want. Maybe that advice works if you aim low. So yes if you ultimate aim is to own a 182 then skipping owning a 152 or 172 probably makes sense.
 
why not buy into a partnership? Honestly, unless you are planning on flying hundreds of hours per year, it makes the most sense...especially when it comes time to paying for annuals, maintenance, engine OH's, etc... I bought into a Cherokee 235 when I was about 5 hours into my PPL. The other pilots are more experienced than me - including one who is a retired airline captain with over 30k hours - so it was a no-brainer for me. I especially like the fact that the group works with an A&P that allows us to do a lot of our own work. We call him and he tells us if it's something he has to be there for...if not, when we're done he comes by, does his inspection and signs the book. We've also down owner-assist annuals although our A&P is no longer a IA so that may change for us this year. Regardless, splitting it 4 ways is a heck of lot nicer than having to pay for it all.

In over 15 months, there has never been a conflict and I've put 140 hours in my logbook. I've probably flown the most over that time period since I was getting my PPL and building some XC time for the last 7 months but 4 pilots that fly ~70-100 hours a year seems to be a sweet spot. The plane gets flown, which it likes and there's not a lot of conflict.

We setup a google calendar and just book time out in advance there. If someone is wanting to take an overnight trip or something and someone else has a hamburger run on the books then we work it out. But like I said, honestly that's never been an issue with us.

The key is getting into something with folks who have their **** together. My group has the plane setup as a LLC, we're all shareholders, we have votes, etc... when it comes to buying new stuff, adding partners, all the legaleze to buy someone out if we have to, etc... It's also good to meet everyone personally just to make sure there's a good vibe there too.
 
Just for grins, I bought a 75 Grumman AA5 with a 430 in it and a basic IFR stack for $31k. Paint was rough, needed some TLC and had a few gear issues but it was a basic flyer. I did some paint touch ups, and fixed the gear fairing and nose gear shimmy and sold it for $34k. Didn't make a ton, but kept me in green for a half a year.

Promise now - I will NOT go bragging on my old standby under $30k plane again. :D
 
I have a suggestion unrelated to the airplane.

Pull out your wallet right now, pull out a $100 bill and light it on fire. Then go about your day like nothing is wrong. If you can't...maybe airplane ownership isn't for you.

If you still insist,
- Buy something to build time with. You can get the perfect airplane in a couple of years after you understand it better.
- Start with a 30% reserve. That won't cover every possible problem, but it will make the ouch a little easier.
- Have fun.
 
bflynn said:
I have a suggestion unrelated to the airplane.

Pull out your wallet right now, pull out a $100 bill and light it on fire. Then go about your day like nothing is wrong. If you can't...maybe airplane ownership isn't for you.

If you still insist,
- Buy something to build time with. You can get the perfect airplane in a couple of years after you understand it better.
- Start with a 30% reserve. That won't cover every possible problem, but it will make the ouch a little easier.
- Have fun.
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unfortunately or fortunately...I can do that, hahaha! I dont know that is a good thing or not :lol:
 
Don't listen to all the nay-sayers, you are a grown adult, you can decide what to spend your money on. By the time you have money to start buying an airplane, you have likely made enough transactions in life to know that you sometimes make good deals, and you sometimes lose your ass, but that is part of life. Stuff happens, good stuff and BAD stuff.

If you tell someone you have a $35k budget on this website, they will tell you that you can't afford a $35k plane. There are quite a few who don't understand that you might only allocate $35k out of the bazillions of $$$ you have.
 
muleywannabe said:
That is a sweet plane! I need to find a partner and I am set! I have a couple guys in mind. I am sure if its been for sale for a long time, it can be bought at a good price.
thanks for the info.
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One might assume so, but, who knows.

One could assume, since it has been on the market a long time, the owner is un-reasonable and not willing to accept an offer that is along market value.

Or, one could assume that 6 other buyers did pre-buys on it, and it failed, and they all walked away.

Or, one could assume that nobody else was shopping for that model.

Who knows what actually might be the case on an individual plane. But, luckily, there are plenty of airplanes for sale out there, and, like a city bus, if you miss one, another one will come along in 5-7 minutes.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Don't listen to all the nay-sayers, you are a grown adult, you can decide what to spend your money on. By the time you have money to start buying an airplane, you have likely made enough transactions in life to know that you sometimes make good deals, and you sometimes lose your ass, but that is part of life. Stuff happens, good stuff and BAD stuff.

If you tell someone you have a $35k budget on this website, they will tell you that you can't afford a $35k plane. There are quite a few who don't understand that you might only allocate $35k out of the bazillions of $$$ you have.
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Great advice and info. Have you ever owned a boat? sits all winter long, you make payments, you pay insurance, storage etc. pull the boat out for usage and stuff is broken, fit it, pay for it and so on and so on. Seems a lot like what an airplane would be. At least in my opinion. I have some buddies that are A&P's and can do the oil changes, fix small things etc. Annuals are done somewhere else. Am I way off base here? My pilot owner buddies state that if you own a business you can use the writeoffs, sure, but you have to have the income in the business to write it off. This doesnt concern me, I am sure you can make a shell company and write it off though there as well.
 
muleywannabe said:
Great advice and info. Have you ever owned a boat? sits all winter long, you make payments, you pay insurance, storage etc. pull the boat out for usage and stuff is broken, fit it, pay for it and so on and so on. Seems a lot like what an airplane would be. At least in my opinion. I have some buddies that are A&P's and can do the oil changes, fix small things etc. Annuals are done somewhere else. Am I way off base here? My pilot owner buddies state that if you own a business you can use the writeoffs, sure, but you have to have the income in the business to write it off. This doesnt concern me, I am sure you can make a shell company and write it off though there as well.
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Writing off planes and aviation expenses, especially with a plane that sees dual usage, personal & business, has a couple of hitches to it, talk with your accountant as to how to best set it up. The people I know who do it have the plane as a business asset and then rent it to themselves.YMMV

BTW, with one exception, all the boats I've owned also served as my home.:D
 
Henning said:
Writing off planes and aviation expenses, especially with a plane that sees dual usage, personal & business, has a couple of hitches to it, talk with your accountant as to how to best set it up. The people I know who do it have the plane as a business asset and then rent it to themselves.YMMV

BTW, with one exception, all the boats I've owned also served as my home.:D
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hahaha! house boats, love it! Can I live in a plane part of the year? :lol::goofy:
 
muleywannabe said:
Can everyone fill me in and give me info on aircraft ownership as to costs to operate, annual costs, average repair costs etc. I know that there are several factors such as hangar rental costs, insurance costs. I would look at buying an inexpensive (cost) airplane in the $35K range, it will be older but will have a lot of updates including GPS, IFR and so on.

What would be a good starting number to set aside for unforeseen maintenance etc?

Lastly, do you feel that with the current economy and the price of aircraft today, that the price of aircraft tomorrow will be higher or can you speculate that you may get your money out of the aircraft in a few years of use?
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I was the treasurer of a club (and still on the BOD as VP) for 5 years, during most of that time we owned a 182 and two Archers. An Archer or similar is probably what you're looking at if you want to spend $35K and be equipped as you state.

Working backwards: You won't get your money back out of it. Figure that any money you spend on an airplane is flushed down the toilet, and be pleasantly surprised if you do get some money for selling it eventually. And airplane is NOT an investment.

You need to be ready, whether via savings or loans (make sure you talk to the bank beforehand about this) to be able to drop $25K on it at a moment's notice - If your oil filter is full of metal, you need to be able to overhaul the engine, and it'll cost at least that much. Depending on how many hours it had on the engine when you bought it, you might get some of this money back at sale.

Annuals will run you anywhere from $1500 to $8000 depending on what they find that needs fixing. Hangar rental varies widely depending on where you are - Anywhere from $75/mo to over $1000/mo. Insurance should be in the $1000-$1500 range the first year on that type of airplane. If you have an IFR GPS, the database subscriptions can run in the $600-$1000/year range. For an Archer, plan on burning 10 gallons of fuel per hour on average, and for the vintage of airplane you'll get with $35K, plan on $50-60 per hour in maintenance expenses.

Monthly fixed costs should be something like this - You can and should get quotes on these things to see what your actual costs will be:
$120/mo insurance
$300/mo hangar
$125/mo towards the annual inspection fee (this does not include squawks)
Total: $545/month, even if you never fly.

Hourly costs, in addition to the above:
$50/hr maintenance (whether you put this away or just fork over big checks as they come due, you'll average out at about this rate)
$55/hr fuel (assuming 10 gph at $5.50/gal - Adjust for your local fuel price)
$11/hr engine reserve
Total: $116/hr in variable costs

So, if you fly 100 hours a year, you'll spend a total of around $18,140 or $181.40/hour. At 150 hours a year, you'll spend a total of $23,940 or $159.60/hr. If you're like the typical owner pilot, you'll have years where you only fly 20 hours. That's still going to cost you $8,860 or $443/hour.

A better way to think of it might be this: The first hour is going to cost you $6,656. The rest of 'em are $116 apiece. Still, unless you fly a LOT, renting is cheaper. Owning is definitely more satisfying, but it's more work and more money. Choose wisely, budget wisely, do not EVER skimp on maintenance - If you find yourself wanting to do so, it's time to sell the plane.

Hope this helps! Now I'm going to read the rest of the thread and see if anyone agrees with me. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I was the treasurer of a club (and still on the BOD as VP) for 5 years, during most of that time we owned a 182 and two Archers. An Archer or similar is probably what you're looking at if you want to spend $35K and be equipped as you state.

Working backwards: You won't get your money back out of it. Figure that any money you spend on an airplane is flushed down the toilet, and be pleasantly surprised if you do get some money for selling it eventually. And airplane is NOT an investment.

You need to be ready, whether via savings or loans (make sure you talk to the bank beforehand about this) to be able to drop $25K on it at a moment's notice - If your oil filter is full of metal, you need to be able to overhaul the engine, and it'll cost at least that much. Depending on how many hours it had on the engine when you bought it, you might get some of this money back at sale.

Annuals will run you anywhere from $1500 to $8000 depending on what they find that needs fixing. Hangar rental varies widely depending on where you are - Anywhere from $75/mo to over $1000/mo. Insurance should be in the $1000-$1500 range the first year on that type of airplane. If you have an IFR GPS, the database subscriptions can run in the $600-$1000/year range. For an Archer, plan on burning 10 gallons of fuel per hour on average, and for the vintage of airplane you'll get with $35K, plan on $50-60 per hour in maintenance expenses.

Monthly fixed costs should be something like this - You can and should get quotes on these things to see what your actual costs will be:
$120/mo insurance
$300/mo hangar
$125/mo towards the annual inspection fee (this does not include squawks)
Total: $545/month, even if you never fly.

Hourly costs, in addition to the above:
$50/hr maintenance (whether you put this away or just fork over big checks as they come due, you'll average out at about this rate)
$55/hr fuel (assuming 10 gph at $5.50/gal - Adjust for your local fuel price)
$11/hr engine reserve
Total: $116/hr in variable costs

So, if you fly 100 hours a year, you'll spend a total of around $18,140 or $181.40/hour. At 150 hours a year, you'll spend a total of $23,940 or $159.60/hr. If you're like the typical owner pilot, you'll have years where you only fly 20 hours. That's still going to cost you $8,860 or $443/hour.

A better way to think of it might be this: The first hour is going to cost you $6,656. The rest of 'em are $116 apiece. Still, unless you fly a LOT, renting is cheaper. Owning is definitely more satisfying, but it's more work and more money. Choose wisely, budget wisely, do not EVER skimp on maintenance - If you find yourself wanting to do so, it's time to sell the plane.

Hope this helps! Now I'm going to read the rest of the thread and see if anyone agrees with me. ;)
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Great info right there!!! Thats what i needed. Question though, what do you do if no rentals are available in the area?? Is partnering up a good idea? I am at least 50 miles to my closest rental and CFI, hate the drive but love flying and my CFI is great.
 
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IMHO, there are three components to the question "Can I afford an airplane?"

1. The purchase including a monthly payment (if financing), taxes and other one time costs (pre buy inspection, travel, initial training)

2. The operating costs (fuel, oil, hangar or tie down, insurance, maintenance, etc)

3. The Oh S**t expense. This is the rare, but expensive big ticket item. Ask yourself, can I afford to overhaul the engine? You may never need to do it, but you must be able to do it, if required. I'd figure $20-30K all in.

Answer yes to all three, then buy away.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
3. The Oh S**t expense. This is the rare, but expensive big ticket item. Ask yourself, can I afford to overhaul the engine? You may never need to do it, but you must be able to do it, if required. I'd figure $20-30K all in.
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It is funny, but you sure can't see a pattern of planes with run out, past TBO engines being discounted $20-30k.

The difference between a 500hr engine and a 1200hr engine and a 1800 hr engine is seems more along the lines of $5k or less.
 
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