Older IFR platform make sense?

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kwc98

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kwc98
Looking for a plane to complete my training and then begin IFR training. Looking at planes that have 70's era technology in Pipers and Cessnas. Does this make sense? Many of the planes do not have upgrades to a IFR GPS, but does that make them obsolete? Waste of time to learn on older avionics? Or a waste of money to upgrade to newer avionics in an older plane.

thanks,
Ken
 
Many CFII's will likely say it would be a good thing to learn to fly IFR on the older stuff. I'd say make sure you have the basics or a little more. I personally would not enjoy flying IFR without all the goodies I have and you will likely want that in the future if you are looking to fly IFR. Buy the best you can afford. Good luck!
 
It depends what "70s electronics" means. Is it dual VORs with GS, an ADF, single NAV/COM with VOR and no GS?

If it has dual NAV/COMs, at least 1 GS, and preferably a VFR GPS, it'll work well for many years. If it is bare-bones legal, I'd avoid it as pilot workload gets really high in actual.
 
I would say steam gauges are the way to go. Even if you have a GPS in the panel, do yourself a favor and learn the other stuff.

GPS is cheating in my book. I love pushing a couple buttons and hitting autopilot. But once in again I'll put a sticky note on it and fly VORs just cuz. GPS can also be NOTAMed out and your left with steam gauges.
 
I dont think its a waste of money to upgrade older aircraft with newer avionics. I did all my training the "old fashioned way" and then upgraded by putting an aspen efd in.
 
kwc98 said:
Looking for a plane to complete my training and then begin IFR training. Looking at planes that have 70's era technology in Pipers and Cessnas. Does this make sense? Many of the planes do not have upgrades to a IFR GPS, but does that make them obsolete? Waste of time to learn on older avionics? Or a waste of money to upgrade to newer avionics in an older plane.

thanks,
Ken
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Hey Ken,

Yeah, as long as you have good working six pack, and at least one loc/GS you're good. It'll actually make you a better IFR pilot then say a G1000. Making a moving map in your head in invaluable as a new IFR pilot.

Best to learn with the basics, no AP, you need to learn on a good and VERY basic foundation for training, adding on "helpers" is easy, learning with all the "helpers" then taking them away, well that's a diffrent story all together.


JC150 said:
I dont think its a waste of money to upgrade older aircraft with newer avionics. I did all my training the "old fashioned way" and then upgraded by putting an aspen efd in.
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What moron would say upgrading a panel is a waste of money?

Look at 185s, U206s, Helios etc. There is no good "new" substitute for those planes. You can upgrade the panel, or downgrade to a heavier plane with less usefull load, or a poorer airframe all together.
 
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I have done most of my IFR training and IFR flying post checride in my 1950 Navion. Of course, the avionics are quite a bit newer.
 
I have dual NAV/COM, dual VORs, one with GS, ADF and a VFR GPS in my plane and learning IFR this way has been great. I also have an iPad and a Stratus II that is hooked up when I fly, even during IFR lessons, but it's mainly for the approach plates. Eventually I'd like to install an IFR GPS but for now this is a great platform to learn on.
 
From a practical standpoint it is difficult or impossible to learn all of the different GPS platforms anyway. The primary purpose of the instrument rating is to learn about the system and how/when to use it. If I were to purchase an aircraft, the main point of having GPS in my opinion would be the benefit of the many GPS approaches out there. Skills learned in an older and cheaper IFR platform are completely transferrable to newer platforms.

It is worth mentioning that adding Forefoight to an older platform gives it a GPS feel (especially if you have the HSI view up). Not legal as primary nav but for training occasionally I think it would complete the picture for you.
 
kwc98 said:
Or a waste of money to upgrade to newer avionics in an older plane.
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JC150 said:
I dont think its a waste of money to upgrade older aircraft with newer avionics.
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James331 said:
What moron would say upgrading a panel is a waste of money?
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All I was trying to do was answer his question, not call anyone a moron. But now I will answer yours.

I would say putting a G500 with a GTN750 into a Cessna 150 with 25,000 TTAF might be a waste of money. You'd never get your money back.
 
JC150 said:
All I was trying to do was answer his question, not call anyone a moron. But now I will answer yours.

I would say putting a G500 with a GTN750 into a Cessna 150 with 25,000 TTAF might be a waste of money. You'd never get your money back.
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Well yeah.

Maybe putting a 430 into a cessna 152 patroller :wink2:
 
The IFR training regime is
1 learning the fundamentals of instrument flight
2 learning ATC system

Oddly enough, most of my IFR training is partial. Once my CFI was happy that I could fly VOR/ADF/NDB, the concentration is partial panel and approaches. All sorts of approaches. After the checkride, then consider GPS unless what you buy already has it.

A GPS approach is exactly the same as a VOR exactly the same as ILS exactly the same as ADF and so on. At that point, you need to manage the airplane power and pitch and not the equipment. Unless, of course, you have CAT I, II or III equipment in your airplane.

*evil laugh*

Once you learn the fundamentals, everything else is easier.
 
I personally learned IFR on steam gauges and /A (dual VORs, ILS, DME). I personally am glad I learned this way as I felt it gave me a solid foundation for what I would later fly, and GPS/ADAHRS is easy to add in.

On the other hand, I flew a lot of old planes with old panels. So, what are you going to fly? If you think you'll fly a new G1000 plane, learn in that. There are a ton of tools in it that are very useful, but you have to know they're there.

I'd also add that an IFR GPS is almost a must now as many small airports don't have approaches that aren't GPS.
 
The equipment that is easiest to pass the IFR flight test is two VOR's, one with a glideslope. That's it. Fly the ILS, LOC or VOR approaches.

That equipment works for after you get the ticket too. No expensive GPS updates, no GPS going obsolete. You can get a VFR GPS for under a grand that will actually work pretty well....
 
kwc98 said:
Looking for a plane to complete my training and then begin IFR training. Looking at planes that have 70's era technology in Pipers and Cessnas. Does this make sense? Many of the planes do not have upgrades to a IFR GPS, but does that make them obsolete? Waste of time to learn on older avionics? Or a waste of money to upgrade to newer avionics in an older plane.

thanks,
Ken
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Depends what you are trying to accomplish. Do you want a plane with a GPS? Do you want to eventually upgrade your panel? Do you want to fly IFR often? The check ride will be easy with the standard six pack. GPS an come in handy with IFR stuff and are really good for situational awareness. But it's up to you and your eventual goal.
 
JC150 said:
All I was trying to do was answer his question, not call anyone a moron. But now I will answer yours.

I would say putting a G500 with a GTN750 into a Cessna 150 with 25,000 TTAF might be a waste of money. You'd never get your money back.
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$25-30 K in avionics in a $15k airplane.
 
I think older planes with basic instruments make sense also. The ADF, in my area, is getting less and less useful as NDB's are decommissioned. Of course, if you see an airplane with a LORAN (they are still out there), the LORAN is totally useless now. If I were in your shoes, though, I would try to find something with a Garmin 430W or similar. It would be much cheaper to buy with one already installed than to have to install it later. In 2020, you will have to have ADS-B to fly in much of our airspace, and you need a GPS source for the ADS-B. Might as well buy one with the capability installed. Our airplane is basic VOR w/GS and an ADF. I wish I had more, but it is what it is. :(
 
It's limiting, that's for sure. It'll make you a better pilot at following airways and doing VOR approaches. I don't know that it'll make you a better pilot overall.

And if you take a plane like that and put ForeFlight/Stratus in it then you'll end up relying on that situational awareness. At that point you've ended up shunning certified GPS avionics in favor of a non-certified iPad app.

That said, there's nothing wrong with starting that way and moving up later.
 
Steve Ritchie said you fight the way you train, then Randy Cunningham said that's why you should train the way you want to fight. My advice as a working instrument instructor is train on whatever you're going to fly once you get the rating. If you're going to fly a 70's 172 with a 6-pack panel and a couple of KX-170's, train on that. If you're going to fly a Cirrus Perspective, train on that. Otherwise, if you train on one thing and then try to fly something else, you're bucking the Laws of Primacy and Exercise.
 
Ron Levy said:
Steve Ritchie said you fight the way you train, then Randy Cunningham said that's why you should train the way you want to fight. My advice as a working instrument instructor is train on whatever you're going to fly once you get the rating. If you're going to fly a 70's 172 with a 6-pack panel and a couple of KX-170's, train on that. If you're going to fly a Cirrus Perspective, train on that. Otherwise, if you train on one thing and then try to fly something else, you're bucking the Laws of Primacy and Exercise.
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Or if you are like me and are going to rent a bunch of different aircraft for years following your IR, you spend a fortune maintaining proficiency :)
 
Updating avionics almost never "pays" (you wont get your money back upon sale). Just a sad fact that it is probably cheaper to sell it and buy one with the avionics you want. An IFR GPS is a sweet thing, but they are EXPENSIVE!

An IFR GPS with a VOR and GS is really about all you need. (Back it up with a VFR GPS). Its the DME, ADF and Marker Beacons that are obsolete. Use the IFR GPS for enroute and fly the ILS (or VOR) approach.

Way cool and uber expensive is a glass panel and the new IFR GPS WAAS with the glideslope RNAV approaches.

Lots of different options actually, each one more expensive than the previous....
 
For a plane you're actually going to fly IFR, yeah you really need a /G
 
I currently teach Instruments full-time using a basic /A platform. I do find it to be an excellent training platform, but that being said, if you're looking for a plane to do some real world IFR flying in, I'd suggest at least a basic IFR GPS (KLN 94, Garmin 430 etc). The system of today is shifting towards being designed around GPS and by not having GPS, your list of available approaches and airports is going to be a lot shorter. Along with that, if I were you, I'd train with the kind of equipment I planned to fly with after training so that you can be as safe and proficient with it as possible once rated.
 
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If you are buying the plane, get one with the avionics you want. I got my IR with 2 nav/coms, one GS and an ADF, but that was 25 years ago. If I was doing it today, I'd train in what I fly and it has an IFR GPS. :D You don't have to use the map when training if you think it makes things too easy. ;)
 
I'm in the same boat. Planning on buying something with two nav/comms, one GS, and one VOR. Desn't seem to be a point in getting an ADF. A WAAS GPS would be a nice bonus.

I'm not a fan of the shotgun panels either. I'd like a nice 6-pack, or I guess 8 pack, with the VORs right next to the 6 pack. I've seen a few older cherokees with the GS and VOR to the right of the radio stack, and I wonder if it is a reach to see them.
 
It seems to make sense for me, to the extent that I have been working on my plane getting it ready for my IR training. It has early eighties VOR's with LOC/GS/MB and two coms that can be switched via the audio panel.

To me it's sort of like learning to drive a stick shift, then going to an automatic is easy. I don't know if it will work that way, but I have the ol' bird and she is equipped to the level that will provide what I need to get my rating.

One step at a time.
 

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Ted DuPuis said:
I personally learned IFR on steam gauges and /A (dual VORs, ILS, DME).
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Ditto, except the plane had ADF as well, so I got to learn NDB approaches. Those were the hardest to get a grasp on.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
...

On the other hand, I flew a lot of old planes with old panels. So, what are you going to fly? If you think you'll fly a new G1000 plane, learn in that. There are a ton of tools in it that are very useful, but you have to know they're there.

I'd also add that an IFR GPS is almost a must now as many small airports don't have approaches that aren't GPS.
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This. In my case, I knew I intended to drop in a GTN 750 so I waited until I had it installed to start my IR. I wanted to train on what I'd ultimately be flying. I'm glad I did that.

The new TSO'd WAAS GPSs are amazing technology and open up a lot of approaches to airports that otherwise have none. For me, that and the routing options that /G opens up were compelling enough to part with the bucks. But budgets are budgets and we fly what we can afford.

Purely for situational awareness, ForeFlight with a Stratus II rivals the highest-end TSO'd WAAS boxes. It's just not legal to use for primary nav. But it's fantastic for a close-secondary nav. So if you're on an airway you'd have no trouble with SA.

So although I may want the goodies, they aren't required.
 
I'm sorta in the same boat. Looking at doing my IR in an older airplane.

Option 1: BE-23 with a non IFR KLX-135 GPS and single VOR w/GS

Everything I've read is that the Musketeer is a very stable albeit slow IFR platform.

$80 and hour wet

beech_muskateer_new_panel.jpg


-OR-

Option 2: A nice PA-28-181 with dual VOR receivers, a Garmin 196, and very basic AP

$110 per hour wet
archerpanel1.jpg


-Or-

Option 3: They also have an Arrow RG and a Cardinal RG both with 430s and MFDs for $135 an hour wet.

What would be the most effective training platform?

I think at some point I'd like to transition to an IFR GPS but for now when mastering attitude flying is a basic airplane more effective as a training tool?
 
The VOR head on the Musketeer being way over to the right would require a lot of head movement. I wouldn't like that. Going from the PA-28 to the Cardinal RG or Arrow would not be too difficult. It would be nice to get your complex also, though. For real world IFR flying, you would probably rent the Arrow or Cardinal (I would), so it might make more sense to use those for training, even though it would cost you a little more.
 
Hmm, good point about the VOR head being off to the right. See, I knew there was a good reason why the Musketeer probably wasn't the best choice! : )
 
Here's the Arrow's panel:

Panel1.jpg


No HSI but has a nice big MFD. The Cardinal has an HSI.
 
Yeah, that nav head all the way over there... Not very thought out.

That said, go do a quickie 30min flight in each, if you can handle the VOR over there I'd go with the cheaper option. Also keep in mind it's a tiny little plane, not like a C208B with a super wide panel, so I think you could get over the VOR head, add to that a IFR GPS, allowing you to have WAY more options on what airports you use, I'd be leaning towards the beech.

Between the lower overall cost and the GPS, you're going to save a bit of money and get familiar with RNAV approaches, which are 80% of what you'll want to shoot in the wild.
 
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